Real lore! changing worlds, and devs interacting with players!

edit: and most importantly, games we're difficult!! games nowadays are like contra on easy, compared to godlike!!

an acutal world were players shape this world.

The most popular MMO's are nothing more than a collection of minigames. you walk into minigame-room #1 and play that minigame.

I think Asheron's Call 1 has the most robust combat mechanics, when monsters or players are firing at you, say arrows, crossbow bolts or magic spells you can dodge them, not insta pathed to you, also means you have to time and calculate your own attacks!

heres a few videos of examples I could find

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaHsHnDG07c ~ War Magic skills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhLdzvLtemQ ~ Missile skill ( bow in this example, throwing weapons and crossbow also play differently )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPj9wI7m1B8 ~ Melee skill example ( dagger, all melees play differently )

With the physics mechanics, and the ability for all players to heal themselves generally the outcome of any battle is changing many ways, combine that with openworlds, lack of zoning, great landscapes and structures with real time combat and you have your self a awesomely paced, and enjoyable game.

Best thing to do is give it a shot and keep practicing! A level 10 can beat a level 35 with using "player skill" in dodging and attacking! or any level range really be it a level 126 vs a 275!

And this was just combat, there was actual crafting, searching around the world for parts to an uber weapon, or basic things like sitting in town fletching arrows!

I miss people not starting threads like this every chance they get or whenever they feel nostalgic. :D

No seriously. I miss questless gameplay. I wanna (be able to) do what I want sometimes, dammit. (Part of the reason I like GW2 ... but that's only halfway there.)

The OP misses the point - the 'Golden Age' of MMOs was when [insert name of player] started playing MMOs.

The center of the universe is always YOU, from YOUR perspective, physically and figuratively.

Originally posted by Caliburn101

The OP misses the point - the 'Golden Age' of MMOs was when [insert name of player] started playing MMOs.

The center of the universe is always YOU, from YOUR perspective, physically and figuratively.

There's a pretty common and well backed concensus among MMO players that the golden age was from 1998 to 2003-4.

I didn't start playing until 2002 and I can agree with that. Easily.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Quirhid
 

Must of struck a nerve huh.

Well I have been gaming a LONG time. I've done more alpha and beta testing than I can count. I have FRIENDS in the industry, which in fact, I am asked for input from. I know enough to know your talking out of your ass.

And I don't recall anywhere I said dev's were lazy or inept. Money grubber's possibly (and rightly so, it's a business after all. But it's gotten out of hand), but the latter are your words you put in my mouth.

I don't know why it's so difficult for you to understand that console gaming, where instant gratification and quick fun you can load in and out of on a whim...is a COMPLETELY different genre from MMORPG's, which are different because they require commitment, LONG TERM commitment, patience, and a lot  of community interaction. Worlds meant to be explored...basically 3D P&P D&D games.

It is fine to add features that compliment and enhance the experience. Yes, group finders are fine. Yes, limited portal use is fine. And yes...even some instancing is fine. But most of what people such as yourself want is to take away almost everything that makes a MMORPG a MMORPG, and turn them into single player games that happen to have other people as NPC's.

Soloing in an MMORPG is also fine. I do it quite a bit. But I also enjoy the group experience. The way I see it, from personal experience...a game with more group content fares better...as a MMORPG, for a longer period than one that calls itself an MMORPG....yet you can solo to level cap, barely talk to anyone, and port basically anywhere negating a point in a game world to begin with. Soloing content should still be in them, but not completely overpowering the game calling itself a MMORPG. This is what I am saying.

Yes, sadly...as much hate as it gets, but true...since WoW it's brought droves of console players to the genre, the cash they stick out there is what drives suits and excels the extinction of the genre as it was. Can you blame me, as a player who started with Meridian 59 and then EQ (Never played UO, not that into PvP) for being upset with this? And for getting heated seeing people like you who ALWAYS have something to say if anyone dares to talk about it, or wants just ONE MMORPG to cater to the old school crowd?

I have a friend working for an Indie company who is making an old school type of MMORPG. Guess I will  continue to wait for it and pitch in where I can because the genre has gone to the dogs. But heed my words that a day will come when the way you enjoy them will shift, then it will be you on this end of the stick. Maybe then you will understand. But again...just keep insisting I am one sided and not willing for a compromise on old and new features and mechanics. Keep blasting anyone who says anything about older MMO's and the desire to have one come around again telling them how it will be a failure, even though there are DOZENS of them that cater to your type already so who cares if we get one...and keep calling me the selfish one while you do it.

We obviously won't see eye to eye, so I will leave it at that. Just please...do yourself, me and many others a favor. If you see a thread about old school MMORPG's or the desire to see another...just pass it by.

There we go again... "instant gratification", huh?

No, MMORPG have never resembled PnP games, because the GM / DM is essential to PnP games. The interaction is between the players and the GM - not with a system. With this in mind, the experience is drastically different although sometimes I feel some people would be happier playing PnP games rather than MMORPGs. Basically they are looking at the wrong place.

During the time of the so called "golden age of MMOs", I played mainly PnP games. I wasn't interested in MMORPGs because I thought they were bad games. Just that: bad games. From the first 2 minutes I wasn't fan of the grinding, or the uninspired skill systems. I also started hating the strict trinity combat very early on - what a perverse system of combat that is. I thought the MMOs of that time were too simple, not enough "game" in them - a novelty, nothing more. A lot of them felt like another job which you payed for. You can see why many players didn't like them. But somehow you want to bring that back.

But whereas PnP were mostly about being in a group. MMOs are not. The idea of MMOs is simply, to share a gamespace with other players. There's nothing wrong with soloing to the level cap and not talking to anyone. If that's how you want to play, go right ahead. I am not going to tell you how to play your games. Solo-friendly is not the same as solo-centric or "single player MMO".

I don't get why you want to force people to interact. Afterall, isn't anything forced is bad? If people don't want to talk with you, group with you, or do business with you, fine. They're still a paying customer and have the same right to play as you do.

Your despise of the average gamer is obvious, but there is no "console player" in the meaning you use it. It is a stereotype, and hardly anyone fulfills it. And basing your argument on a stereotype puts it on a frail ground.

Can't you see that maybe the old school mechanics were precisely the reason why they weren't as popular as they are today? You can't bring those days back! These games do not exist in a vacuum. A lot of the features you'd want would not be well received in the market today. You'd be creating a niche game which is perfectly fine if you were happy with it. Except you think you can change the minds of the mass market, which, I think, is blind optimisim - utter fantasy.

You talk about changing the genre, you talk about influencing the players, doing this and that, but you never go into detail how you're going to do it. You have no practical plan or method! Every time these threads come up with community building etc. they never go into details how to go about doing that. And they are usually filled with a lot of wishful thinking and blind hope that things go the way they've planned. I like to think more down to earth so thats partly why I shoot those down.

I've been a GM / DM for years, so I know about PvE, encounter design, and world building so don't worry about me. I've also played e-sports at a world championship level so I claim to know atleast something about game balance, different builds and competitive PvP. I have friends who have been very succesful in e-sports in varying games, friends in the industry who have asked for my opinion too.

I can accept that we come from a very different schools of thinking, and different backgrounds, but what I will not accept that you constantly insult, demean and use derogatory terms for players and their games who are not like you or which are not to your liking. That is immature.

All this talk about easy-mode, solo-centrizism, dumbing down etc. is gross over-exaggeration. You are blowing this way out of proportion and I don't we agree on what is game depth and a proper way to pursue challenge in a game. One obvious thing is that you think that time invested is a factor to challenge and I don't. You want down time to force socializing, I think it is too costly in terms of accessibility. And I can socialize just fine in games that have little to no downtime, but again, topic for another thread.

Originally posted by Caliburn101

The OP misses the point - the 'Golden Age' of MMOs was when [insert name of player] started playing MMOs.

The center of the universe is always YOU, from YOUR perspective, physically and figuratively.

I thought the "Golden Age" was about MMO not the player. I believe the OP was refering to when MMO was emerging from single players and MUDs to a MMO as we know it of today. At that time MMO was new, ideas and concept, but today's MMOs are just taking from what MMO's were during that time. Nothing new, nothing original, [insert my hatered for WoW].

Originally posted by ibn_Cartwell

Real lore! changing worlds, and devs interacting with players!

edit: and most importantly, games we're difficult!! games nowadays are like contra on easy, compared to godlike!!

Dude, you have one of the most distinct writing styles in all of MMORPG.com.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Quirhid
 

There we go again... "instant gratification", huh?

No, MMORPG have never resembled PnP games, because the GM / DM is essential to PnP games. The interaction is between the players and the GM - not with a system. With this in mind, the experience is drastically different although sometimes I feel some people would be happier playing PnP games rather than MMORPGs. Basically they are looking at the wrong place.

During the time of the so called "golden age of MMOs", I played mainly PnP games. I wasn't interested in MMORPGs because I thought they were bad games. Just that: bad games. From the first 2 minutes I wasn't fan of the grinding, or the uninspired skill systems. I also started hating the strict trinity combat very early on - what a perverse system of combat that is. I thought the MMOs of that time were too simple, not enough "game" in them - a novelty, nothing more. A lot of them felt like another job which you payed for. You can see why many players didn't like them. But somehow you want to bring that back.

But whereas PnP were mostly about being in a group. MMOs are not. The idea of MMOs is simply, to share a gamespace with other players. There's nothing wrong with soloing to the level cap and not talking to anyone. If that's how you want to play, go right ahead. I am not going to tell you how to play your games. Solo-friendly is not the same as solo-centric or "single player MMO".

I don't get why you want to force people to interact. Afterall, isn't anything forced is bad? If people don't want to talk with you, group with you, or do business with you, fine. They're still a paying customer and have the same right to play as you do.

Your despise of the average gamer is obvious, but there is no "console player" in the meaning you use it. It is a stereotype, and hardly anyone fulfills it. And basing your argument on a stereotype puts it on a frail ground.

Can't you see that maybe the old school mechanics were precisely the reason why they weren't as popular as they are today? You can't bring those days back! These games do not exist in a vacuum. A lot of the features you'd want would not be well received in the market today. You'd be creating a niche game which is perfectly fine if you were happy with it. Except you think you can change the minds of the mass market, which, I think, is blind optimisim - utter fantasy.

You talk about changing the genre, you talk about influencing the players, doing this and that, but you never go into detail how you're going to do it. You have no practical plan or method! Every time these threads come up with community building etc. they never go into details how to go about doing that. And they are usually filled with a lot of wishful thinking and blind hope that things go the way they've planned. I like to think more down to earth so thats partly why I shoot those down.

I've been a GM / DM for years, so I know about PvE, encounter design, and world building so don't worry about me. I've also played e-sports at a world championship level so I claim to know atleast something about game balance, different builds and competitive PvP. I have friends who have been very succesful in e-sports in varying games, friends in the industry who have asked for my opinion too.

I can accept that we come from a very different schools of thinking, and different backgrounds, but what I will not accept that you constantly insult, demean and use derogatory terms for players and their games who are not like you or which are not to your liking. That is immature.

All this talk about easy-mode, solo-centrizism, dumbing down etc. is gross over-exaggeration. You are blowing this way out of proportion and I don't we agree on what is game depth and a proper way to pursue challenge in a game. One obvious thing is that you think that time invested is a factor to challenge and I don't. You want down time to force socializing, I think it is too costly in terms of accessibility. And I can socialize just fine in games that have little to no downtime, but again, topic for another thread.

And again, completely missing the point, or failing to understand. How the hell is saying terms like "console gamers" or "instant gratification" insulting? Seems to me YOU took it personally...which says a lot then. I play console games as well, and it doesn't offend me, why does it for you so much?

And  those terms go hand in hand and what that genre is about anyways. You are nit picking and seems you are just looking to argue and not understand. I never said ANYTHING about forcing people to group (or not having soloable content), or keeping every single aspect of old school MMORPG's (Could of sworn TWICE now I mentioned comprimise and incorporating newer features), or insulting anyone directly. Do you have a reading issue? Better get that checked out.

Anyways, now I am done wasting my time trying to hold a discussion with you, because obviously...again...we will not see eye to eye.

Originally posted by wallet113

Originally posted by Caliburn101

The OP misses the point - the 'Golden Age' of MMOs was when [insert name of player] started playing MMOs.

The center of the universe is always YOU, from YOUR perspective, physically and figuratively.

I thought the "Golden Age" was about MMO not the player. I believe the OP was refering to when MMO was emerging from single players and MUDs to a MMO as we know it of today. At that time MMO was new, ideas and concept, but today's MMOs are just taking from what MMO's were during that time. Nothing new, nothing original, [insert my hatered for WoW].

I WISH MMOs today were doing what golden age MMOs did. They aren't doing the same, they're doing less. WoW, after 8 years, has less features than UO had after 2.

Originally posted by TheScavenger

I really miss standing around for 6 hours, spamming

 

"LFG! Level 100 needed for dungeon"

"Want to trade Olthoi Armor for pyreals!"

And seeing chat go by so fast that no one sees your LFG or trade messages, because 1000 other people are spamming chat for the same thing

And I miss standing in one spot killing the same mob over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

 

I miss being able to grief people and scam people and get away with it (well EVE lets you do this)

 

I miss being forced to group, and being grouped with a bunch of people that I don't even like or would ever actually talk to or be a real friend with and I'm only with them so I can get something out of them

 

I miss being killed and losing hundreds of hours it took to get items and losing everything. I have nothing better to do with my life than lose hundreds of hours worth of items and levels/skills/stats...I really miss this.

 

I miss being able to run around at the highest level and gank level 1s and tell them "GTFO out of the game nooby"...some MMOs allow you to do this though. 

 

That about sums up the things I really miss in the classic MMOs.

 

/this!!!!  Nail on the head!