Originally posted by Garkan

Originally posted by Loktofeit

edit: nm

 

What Obi said.

It was just an attempt at some speculative discussion about why CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD. Not a bloody college thesis. Jeez, lose some of the seriousness about how everything has evidence. You know this is a forum right? Where people post opinions?
 
Do you sit with a friend and demand they bring evidence to the discussion. Besides the info is out there, like the presentations on YouTube. They are easy enough to find, do you really need hand holding for that too?

Interesting. Before my edit, my comment was basically two things -

1) that it would help if you explained what information you are basing your stance on. Just asking you to share where you are getting that 'CCP cannot get anywhere' with the game. As far as I know, they are still working on it. As far as I know, they haven't shared how far along it is, but evidently you know so it's not unreasonable to ask where you are getting that.

2) several people have asked for more information in order to be able to discuss it with you and they have received defensive responses, snarky remarks and ad hominems.

Let's try again.

Hi, I'm Lok. You asked a question and made a statement that are both interesting

"So the question is why cant CCP, an experienced Dev create the game they have years to work on?"

"CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD"

This is something I hadn't heard before. Can you share with us your information on the development of World of Darkness. I haven't seen much out there and I was under the impression they were still working on it, although I don't know how far along they are. To answer the title, though: No, I don't feel CCP should be ashamed of themselves as they seem to be doing well with their existing title, releasing a second title, integrating those two, and working on the third title, as well.

Originally posted by ObiClownobi

 

Thank you for clarifying, I can now answer.

No, CCP should not be ashamed because of the speculations of yourself.

Funniest thing I've read all week. Thanks!

/thread

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Originally posted by Heretique
Honestly, whatever the reason for putting WoD on the back burner probably had to be a decent one.

CCP did a great job with EvE and they would do the same for WoD, not rush it.

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Originally posted by ObiClownobi

Originally posted by Garkan

Originally posted by Loktofeit

edit: nm

 

What Obi said.

It was just an attempt at some speculative discussion about why CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD. Not a bloody college thesis. Jeez, lose some of the seriousness about how everything has evidence. You know this is a forum right? Where people post opinions?
 
Do you sit with a friend and demand they bring evidence to the discussion. Besides the info is out there, like the presentations on YouTube. They are easy enough to find, do you really need hand holding for that too?

It's a simple principle, you made the statement, you provide the evidence for the statement, why would people search the Internet for information that only you say exists.

I have lost "the seriousness", I don't take what you say seriously.

I did not present a "statement" I posted some opinions, when someone tells you they like a particular brand of coffee do you demand they present evidence for that? Get off your high horse and drop the pseudo intellectualism and realize a forum like this is for presenting opinions. You have added nothing of value to the topic except to try and troll the opinion I posted.
 
All I was really trying to say is that if one small independent dev can turn a complicated PnP game into a game why cant CCP, not write a bloody thesis or hand hold people that cant be bothered to go find out any info themselves.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Garkan

Originally posted by Loktofeit

edit: nm

 

What Obi said.

It was just an attempt at some speculative discussion about why CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD. Not a bloody college thesis. Jeez, lose some of the seriousness about how everything has evidence. You know this is a forum right? Where people post opinions?
 
Do you sit with a friend and demand they bring evidence to the discussion. Besides the info is out there, like the presentations on YouTube. They are easy enough to find, do you really need hand holding for that too?

Interesting. Before my edit, my comment was basically two things -

1) that it would help if you explained what information you are basing your stance on. Just asking you to share where you are getting that 'CCP cannot get anywhere' with the game. As far as I know, they are still working on it. As far as I know, they haven't shared how far along it is, but evidently you know so it's not unreasonable to ask where you are getting that.

2) several people have asked for more information in order to be able to discuss it with you and they have received defensive responses, snarky remarks and ad hominems.

Let's try again.

 

Hi, I'm Lok. You asked a question and made a statement that are both interesting

"So the question is why cant CCP, an experienced Dev create the game they have years to work on?"

"CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD"

This is something I hadn't heard before. Can you share with us your information on the development of World of Darkness. I haven't seen much out there and I was under the impression they were still working on it, although I don't know how far along they are. To answer the title, though: No, I don't feel CCP should be ashamed of themselves as they seem to be doing well with their existing title, releasing a second title, integrating those two, and working on the third title, as well.

 

 

 

Once again I am not presenting a "statement" I voiced an opinion. In this case my opinion comes from me following CCP for 7 years. They bought White Wolf quite a while ago. I think the game is going nowhere based on the terribleness of the test bed for WoD and the way that if anything significant was happening with it we would never hear the end about it. 
 
For both Dust and EVE are massively promoted, they are constantly making videos showing behind the scenes and every stage of development. Yet we see or hear absolutely nothing about World of Darkness. 
 
My opinion that its not going well come from the way the test bed didn't work out so well and from a company thats constantly promoting their other two products have barely told us a single thing or shown no clips in all these years.

Originally posted by Garkan

Originally posted by ObiClownobi

Originally posted by Garkan

Originally posted by Loktofeit

edit: nm

 

What Obi said.

It was just an attempt at some speculative discussion about why CCP cannot get anywhere with WoD. Not a bloody college thesis. Jeez, lose some of the seriousness about how everything has evidence. You know this is a forum right? Where people post opinions?
 
Do you sit with a friend and demand they bring evidence to the discussion. Besides the info is out there, like the presentations on YouTube. They are easy enough to find, do you really need hand holding for that too?

It's a simple principle, you made the statement, you provide the evidence for the statement, why would people search the Internet for information that only you say exists.

I have lost "the seriousness", I don't take what you say seriously.

I did not present a "statement" I posted some opinions, when someone tells you they like a particular brand of coffee do you demand they present evidence for that? Get off your high horse and drop the pseudo intellectualism and realize a forum like this is for presenting opinions. You have added nothing of value to the topic except to try and troll the opinion I posted.
 
All I was really trying to say is that if one small independent dev can turn a complicated PnP game into a game why cant CCP, not write a bloody thesis or hand hold people that cant be bothered to go find out any info themselves.

If someone tells me they like a brand of coffee I take their opinion as is, when someone tells me Nestlé are struggling to manufacture their coffee and that another company is beating them on coffee making efficiency I ask where they got that information.

Seeing as I'm busy reading up for my exam, I did not read the 5 pages of comments. Sorry if the following has already been said.

A singleplayer game cannot be compared with an MMO. They're two very different beasts. Also, just because CD Projekt is promising all these things, you can't say that it'll happen. Look at Dungeons & Dragons Online; Just because the rules are there etc., they do not always translate well and are often either neclected or left alone because of the "complexity" of translating.

Besides this, having an open world is, apparently, hard. (I base this on the amount of both MMO- and SP-games without an open world). Then take into account stuff like decisions that matter to the game world. This is harder in an MMO (for obvious reasons), but apparently also hard in SP games (I base this on the amount of SP games where your actions don't matter).

Also, a lot of the stuff CCP have been doing with WOD (according to press releases, I think - or maybe just dev's speaking), a lot of the stuff they're doing wouldn't be possible a couple of years ago. They've also released a couple of videos showing off the graphics and physics of WOD (at least what they've done thus far, such as having a dress that correctly interacts with the surroundings; like sliding down the stairs). Their character editor is (or was, I havn't followed other character editors) first class, with the ability to pull various parts of the body to shape it (they've brought it to EVE; I assume because they wanted to test it on real people :P).

Granted, there's VERY little news on WOD's development. CCP are, and who can blame them, developing on their cash cow(s): EVE and DUST. But they are, last I heard (some press release, and/or devblog talking re: layoffs), still developing on WOD. But they want it to be the best it can be - and do not want to develop something that'll fail because it's too different from what people are expecting.

CD Projekt's Witcher franchise is.. Nice, I guess. I havn't played the games yet, but they're sitting in my backlog. However, having the privilige of being able to focus on one game is an advantage. They're also working on a singleplayer game, which, as I stated previously, is a different beast.

I do, however, think there are several reasons why there aren't more games out there like the Elderscrolls series. I believe it's hard. And that's why I also think CD Projekt may not know what they've gotten themselves into. But who knows. Maybe it'll turn out better than the D&D translations that have been. But even if it does come out before WOD, it proves nothing. Because they're so different.

Lastly, no. I do not think CCP should be ashamed of themselves. They have a bunch of good things, and a bunch of bad things. Hopefully the first outweigh the latter, but who knows? I'm wanting a WOD mmo as much as the next guy, but I don't want another WoW clone (or similar). I want a game that I can be proud of playing; something that has translated well. Something like the singleplayer games, but bigger and better. All of this is hard to do. And as such, no. They've got nothing to be ashamed of (or, rather, not in this case).

In summation. CD Projekt has taken on a beast of a challenge, but it's a SP game. Therefore, they cannot properly be compared (CD Projekt's project and WOD). It doesn't matter which game comes out first. As such, CCP shouldn't be ashamed.

FakeEdit: I would find some links, but, as stated in the top of this reply, I'm busy reading for my exam.

Real edit:

Originally posted by yutty
CCP should be ashammed of the greediness of that Monocule thingy they where trying to sell, the joke of a game dust, and cutting back on the development wod to focus on dust and eve from the backlash.

So they should be ashamed that they reacted to the outcry of their community, and decided to actually focus on their communitys game of choice? They should, perhaps, be ashamed that it took an outcry of that magnitude for them to focus on their released games (even though the community had been asking for ages).
 Also, it takes resources to develop something; they don't have many. They took a managerial decision and focused on what people were screaming at them to focus on. It's too bad that it hit WOD development, but, alas, Newton's laws of motion also play into stuff such as this.

Real edit #2:
I'd love to see where you get all the information from, though. You know, the whole "next gen graphics", "detailed world", etc. Because, from where I'm sitting, that's more-or-less what every half-decent developer will promise their fanbase during the announcement/development of a game. Words and actions are, however, completely different things.

CCP hasn't been hiding anything from anyone. According to this article, they said they took on too much, and had to scale back. Eve and Dust are the priority items. WoD is still being worked on.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-06-08-world-of-darkness-mmo-in-active-development

It took them five years to develop Eve, and another three or four to really get going with the game. I don't see why WoD would be something they rush through, especially as a low priority item.

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Originally posted by Garkan

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Originally posted by sketocafe CCP is making an MMO, CD Project is making a standalone RPG. So no.

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Derp, I covered that. Fact is the game CD Projekt are attempting is as complex and as challenging as creating an MMO. The challenges they face are different but both are difficult in there own way.  CD Projekt are creating RPG mechanics covering over 4700 pages in 44 books, in a game filled with huge detail and no set linear path. Its basically trying to create something as detail heavy and as free formed as Morrowind combined with one of Biowares better RPGs like DA:O. The game will also have true next gen graphics. This is not something thats easily done

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Eh, those 44 books are not all rules...

The core rules are explained in a single book. That book has a lot of lore in it aswell, in addition to item descriptions, examples etc.

The other 43 books MIGHT have one page worth of additions or revisions, but most of them are more lore, items etc.

That said, a multiplayer game is a vastly different animal than a singleplayer game. The latter is infinitely easier to produce, which is why they usually seem a lot more intricate. As a dev, you have a lot more freedom making a game when you only have one player to worry about, and his interaction with the game world. You can have the game change around just for the player, so to speak.

In a multiplayer game you have to design for interactions between both the game world AND the player - Depending on the amount of players you want involved it gets infinitely more complex to design properly. You can't really have the game change just for one player, it has to change for everyone. But how do you do this? Do you block swabs of content off because one single player did something specific? Do you leave everything as it is even though some groups of players have done different things to make change happen? How do you balance out skill levels and player abilities so that a small group of players can't game the system to make it impossible for the others to play?

So many more factors enter into designing a multiplayer game that it's not funny anymore - Especially RPG's where the interaction is not limited to 'point at something and shoot it'. Even in shooters it can be difficult to get it right.

And lastly, a singleplayer game doesn't 'need' the same amount of content as a multiplayer game. A SP game can be finished in a weekend, maybe a week of fulltime play, and people will be content, shelving it to maybe pull it out again after a year or two.

A multiplayer game has to be intersting to play for not just one weekend, but every weekend. This brings even MORE issues to the table compared to singleplayer games.

It's not even close to as easy as you make it out to be...

As far as I know, they're currently doing a 3 weeks long, global, interal feature testing of WoDMMO RIGHT NOW!! Still a long wait a head of us, but at least now we know that they're actually doing some progress. There're some tiny information on twitter and the WoDnews website if you like.

Ok, now back to the topic. CCP have problems they need to iron out, but any major project like this will take not only time, but also a certain amount of luck. The developement of World of Darkness MMO might not be as smooth as we hoped, but that's just the way it is. In my opinion, NO ONE should be ashamed. I'm sure the developers at Atlanta office and White Wolf are doing everything they can to prevent the game from dying in its cradle, even if it mean that they have to work on some side projects for EVE & DUST and will never get credit for whatsoever. As for CCP, I don't mean to sound condescending but... do you even know how much money you'll need to support a sixty people team for just one month? I'm currently working in a similar industry and... well lets just say I believe every single day while WoD is still not profitable, guys at CCP will ask their children to pray sincerely for the game before they go to bed.

As for the part you compare a MMO to a single player RPG... beside the fact that they are different in so many ways, there's one additional and quite important fact you should and might notice: MMO tend not to stay popular for a long time nowadays. You see EQ, WoW, EvE, Rift, GW2 or maybe another one or two and that's it, and some of these aren't even close to popular! The population of a MMO drop so fast that you'll think their developers must have done something horribly wrong with their game while in fact they did not, people just lose interest and move on. It's a lot harder to make a successful MMO than to make an awesome single player RPG simply because you'll need your audience to play the same game for years, and everything that the developers can think of to make their game CONSTANTLY feels fun have pertty much been done in WoW(grindy dungeons & raids, stupid daily and all that) and EVE(free-as-a-bird sandbox elements and well designed social interaction).

I'm not angry at all that the god dame game's developement is takeing fxcking forever(...), but I will be if they end up giveing us a game that goes free to play in one year and no one even remember it in five. For now, let's just be patient and see how it goes, shall we? :)

Originally posted by Garkan

Originally posted by Cursedsei

Originally posted by Garkan

Originally posted by bcrankshaw

Originally posted by Garkan

Originally posted by sketocafe
CCP is making an MMO, CD Project is making a standalone RPG. So no.

Derp, I covered that. Fact is the game CD Projekt are attempting is as complex and as challenging as creating an MMO. The challenges they face are different but both are difficult in there own way. 
 
CD Projekt are creating RPG mechanics covering over 4700 pages in 44 books, in a game filled with huge detail and no set linear path. Its basically trying to create something as detail heavy and as free formed as Morrowind combined with one of Biowares better RPGs like DA:O. The game will also have true next gen graphics. This is not something thats easily done

I don't get your point, it makes no sense

Why would CCP be ashamed because another development company is making a complex single player RPG? Should they also be embarrassed because Bethesda made Skyrim and it was sold millions of copies?

There is very little correlation technically around the development of how an MMO and a single player game is designed. So no, CCP shouldn't be ashamed

-snipping a bunch of useless stuff-

 

What you don't get, is that CCP has to continually funnel money into EvE, their only real source of income. Remember Monoclegate? That cost them funds due to loss of players, and have been scrambling to implement more player-wanted mechanics and overhauls into EvE Online.

Supporting servers, paying staff for development of new content as well as reworking what is there, it all costs money. Money that is also being used to fund Dust 514's development (Which as a F2P title means there is no guarantee of money from every player). At the time, their cash was split in three ways, EvE, Dust, and WoD.

 

Considering one of those three titles weren't even in a showable state, when money-squeezing time came, they had to throw one title on the backburner, in order to support their money makers and thus make money.

 

 

CD Projekt doesn't have that issue. At most, they pay for upkeep on a site, upkeep that is far less costly than an MMO, and doesn't require nearly as much support. They also aren't stuck constantly having to develop and update a game while trying to work on others. While there is no monthly source of income, overhead is also more than likely lower.

And nowhere has it been stated at all that developing their Cyberpunk title is as costly or hard as an MMO, so you can drop that weak bit of an opinionated argument right there. There is only one title that the Projekt's dev team Red is working on, and thats the Cyberpunk game, with rumors of a 3rd Witcher title popping up.

That's still 2 games compared to Eve's 3 (counting WoD of course).

 

So no. CCP shouldn't be ashamed of themselves, because there is no bloody reason to. You though, should certainly feel ashamed for yourself due to your lack of insight into any of this, despite you listing off what I essentially just did, as well as an obvious lack of understanding on your part towards the studios and there positions.

 

Thread Derp MkII    I listed CCPs financial position relative to CD Projekt in the OP. You also seem unaware of the costs implied in creating next Gen graphics, Epic and Crytek estimate next gen graphics will cost twice or even three times as much to create compared to this gen and will need a huge increase in development time, more artists need to work on the massive level of detail and lighting effects. The Programing behind them is also more difficult.    So the graphics are a challenge enough then you marry that to a very complicated game, I will not list the challenges again to people who just do not get the challenges that Devs face when creating a game as complicated as a triple AAA next gen RPG with a world as detailed as CyberPunk will be. A game like Cyberpunk runs into the Millions. Other games with multiplatform releases easily hits $30 million, then CyberPunk has the extra costs related to its next gen graphics    Good Old Games needs development time too, for example they have began converting all their titles to be guaranteed to work in windows 8.    Just maintaining a website indeed, you have all the gall to call me unaware of things. You didn't have a clue about the development cost of next gen graphics nor how much a game like this would cost and you called GoG "just maintaining a website" Please do some research before trying to call me out.

 

Sorry guy but you can't compare RPGs to MMORPGs ever. Also nextgen graphics (w/e that actually is) takes longer time sure but as the tools develop as well it is not such a huge increase in time, I know this as I am a 3D artist and sit with this stuff day in and day out. Look back to the time before sculpting programs and how much longer things took to make at that point with great detail. zBrush keeps giving us just more and more lovely features so I have no doubt that instead of getting harder it will stay approx the same or even get easier.

Both CCP and CD Projekt RED have announced that they are working on games.

The only diffrence I can see between the two developers (aside the MMORPG/RPG thing) is CD Projekt RED gave a release date of no sooner than 2015 - which isn't really a release date at all is it?

On behalf of CCP, as someone that has nothing to do with working for the company, I'll make a statement saying that WOD will not be out before 2015 either.  There, now CCP can hold their heads up high.

Originally posted by leoo88556

As far as I know, they're currently doing a 3 weeks long, global, interal feature testing of WoDMMO RIGHT NOW!! Still a long wait a head of us, but at least now we know that they're actually doing some progress. There're some tiny information on twitter and the WoDnews website if you like.

Ok, now back to the topic. CCP have problems they need to iron out, but any major project like this will take not only time, but also a certain amount of luck. The developement of World of Darkness MMO might not be as smooth as we hoped, but that's just the way it is. In my opinion, NO ONE should be ashamed. I'm sure the developers at Atlanta office and White Wolf are doing everything they can to prevent the game from dying in its cradle, even if it mean that they have to work on some side projects for EVE & DUST and will never get credit for whatsoever. As for CCP, I don't mean to sound condescending but... do you even know how much money you'll need to support a sixty people team for just one month? I'm currently working in a similar industry and... well lets just say I believe every single day while WoD is still not profitable, guys at CCP will ask their children to pray sincerely for the game before they go to bed.

As for the part you compare a MMO to a single player RPG... beside the fact that they are different in so many ways, there's one additional and quite important fact you should and might notice: MMO tend not to stay popular for a long time nowadays. You see EQ, WoW, EvE, Rift, GW2 or maybe another one or two and that's it, and some of these aren't even close to popular! The population of a MMO drop so fast that you'll think their developers must have done something horribly wrong with their game while in fact they did not, people just lose interest and move on. It's a lot harder to make a successful MMO than to make an awesome single player RPG simply because you'll need your audience to play the same game for years, and everything that the developers can think of to make their game CONSTANTLY feels fun have pertty much been done in WoW(grindy dungeons & raids, stupid daily and all that) and EVE(free-as-a-bird sandbox elements and well designed social interaction).

I'm not angry at all that the god dame game's developement is takeing fxcking forever(...), but I will be if they end up giveing us a game that goes free to play in one year and no one even remember it in five. For now, let's just be patient and see how it goes, shall we? :)

Um, didn't CCP say that WoD is being designed and released from the get go as a F2P game?

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by leoo88556

As far as I know, they're currently doing a 3 weeks long, global, interal feature testing of WoDMMO RIGHT NOW!! Still a long wait a head of us, but at least now we know that they're actually doing some progress. There're some tiny information on twitter and the WoDnews website if you like.

Ok, now back to the topic. CCP have problems they need to iron out, but any major project like this will take not only time, but also a certain amount of luck. The developement of World of Darkness MMO might not be as smooth as we hoped, but that's just the way it is. In my opinion, NO ONE should be ashamed. I'm sure the developers at Atlanta office and White Wolf are doing everything they can to prevent the game from dying in its cradle, even if it mean that they have to work on some side projects for EVE & DUST and will never get credit for whatsoever. As for CCP, I don't mean to sound condescending but... do you even know how much money you'll need to support a sixty people team for just one month? I'm currently working in a similar industry and... well lets just say I believe every single day while WoD is still not profitable, guys at CCP will ask their children to pray sincerely for the game before they go to bed.

As for the part you compare a MMO to a single player RPG... beside the fact that they are different in so many ways, there's one additional and quite important fact you should and might notice: MMO tend not to stay popular for a long time nowadays. You see EQ, WoW, EvE, Rift, GW2 or maybe another one or two and that's it, and some of these aren't even close to popular! The population of a MMO drop so fast that you'll think their developers must have done something horribly wrong with their game while in fact they did not, people just lose interest and move on. It's a lot harder to make a successful MMO than to make an awesome single player RPG simply because you'll need your audience to play the same game for years, and everything that the developers can think of to make their game CONSTANTLY feels fun have pertty much been done in WoW(grindy dungeons & raids, stupid daily and all that) and EVE(free-as-a-bird sandbox elements and well designed social interaction).

I'm not angry at all that the god dame game's developement is takeing fxcking forever(...), but I will be if they end up giveing us a game that goes free to play in one year and no one even remember it in five. For now, let's just be patient and see how it goes, shall we? :)

 

Um, didn't CCP say that WoD is being designed and released from the get go as a F2P game?

Really! I must have missed that some how. Care to share your source of this information? 

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Originally posted by leoo88556
As far as I know, they're currently doing a 3 weeks long, global, interal feature testing of WoDMMO RIGHT NOW!! Still a long wait a head of us, but at least now we know that they're actually doing some progress. There're some tiny information on twitter and the WoDnews website if you like.

Ok, now back to the topic. CCP have problems they need to iron out, but any major project like this will take not only time, but also a certain amount of luck. The developement of World of Darkness MMO might not be as smooth as we hoped, but that's just the way it is. In my opinion, NO ONE should be ashamed. I'm sure the developers at Atlanta office and White Wolf are doing everything they can to prevent the game from dying in its cradle, even if it mean that they have to work on some side projects for EVE & DUST and will never get credit for whatsoever. As for CCP, I don't mean to sound condescending but... do you even know how much money you'll need to support a sixty people team for just one month? I'm currently working in a similar industry and... well lets just say I believe every single day while WoD is still not profitable, guys at CCP will ask their children to pray sincerely for the game before they go to bed.

As for the part you compare a MMO to a single player RPG... beside the fact that they are different in so many ways, there's one additional and quite important fact you should and might notice: MMO tend not to stay popular for a long time nowadays. You see EQ, WoW, EvE, Rift, GW2 or maybe another one or two and that's it, and some of these aren't even close to popular! The population of a MMO drop so fast that you'll think their developers must have done something horribly wrong with their game while in fact they did not, people just lose interest and move on. It's a lot harder to make a successful MMO than to make an awesome single player RPG simply because you'll need your audience to play the same game for years, and everything that the developers can think of to make their game CONSTANTLY feels fun have pertty much been done in WoW(grindy dungeons & raids, stupid daily and all that) and EVE(free-as-a-bird sandbox elements and well designed social interaction).

I'm not angry at all that the god dame game's developement is takeing fxcking forever(...), but I will be if they end up giveing us a game that goes free to play in one year and no one even remember it in five. For now, let's just be patient and see how it goes, shall we? :)

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