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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do we really need races?

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103 posts found
  NorseGod

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/12
Posts: 573

1/11/13 6:04:28 PM#81

Well, in the beginning i wanted just make fun of you for bringing up biology here.

But reading wikipedia is fun and in this case was slighly enlightening.

So now i hold the belief that your insistence on using biology terminology is misplaced, we are not talking about things that posess DNA.

We are talking about race in the context of rpg games, and most people will understand it for what it really means here, a more fundamental characteristic of a character (playable or not) that most often manifests itself in the cosmetic or appearance area, but may also influence other aspects, like availability of classes, gear restrictions and bonuses/penalties of all kinds.

There i see the difference between "character race" and you mentioning the use of the word "hacker" to label cheaters to make news stories more sensational.

Flame on!

:)

Wiki is convenient. However, not a credible source to facts. Anyone can contribute to Wiki, and it is also heavily moderated. By who? Who's side are they on and why? No university professor accepts Wiki as a source because of this. Not trying to lecture you, just point this out. So just be careful.

Anyways, in my defense, my thoughts on the matter go well beyond biology. Due to the RoC, I cannot freely express my thoughts in regards to the use of the word "race" incorrectly replacing the word "species" . Such as the purpose or intent, for example. I just limited myself to pointing out the fact that the use of the word "race" and "species" is technically incorrect from scientific fact. Not an PhD level of understanding, but a fact that is commonly learned in the most basic biology curriculum.

No big deal, due to it pertaining to video games. I know. We both discussed our views on importance and unimportance. But the truth be told, when I read the title, I thought the OP was asking for something else.

  corpusc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1363

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

1/11/13 6:23:29 PM#82
Originally posted by Caliburn101

I would argue no - many very good fantasy and scifi stories have only human 'player' characters.

The extra effort that goes into resizing and refitting gear for the various races in a normal game could instead go into creating more variety of gear - cultural etc. variance which would enrich the game just as much.

Just my two-pence on the subject, and a very subjective subject it is...

 

truth

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  madazz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1299

1/11/13 6:44:26 PM#83
A game can be great with only one race (Original UO). I do like having multiple races, but I don't think it would bother me in the slightest if there was only one available in a GREAT game.
  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

1/11/13 7:03:12 PM#84
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Multiple races are not needed. One can have a MMO without multiple races. More races add flavor, background, lore, history, and many times conflict into a MMO, so I think multiple races are preferable.

 


Originally posted by Quirhid
There is no negative impact to PvP if the system is balanced, but usually it isn't. Infact, I can't remember a balanced PvP game with races...

 

I'm not a fan of races if they funnel you into specific classes. It is effectively the same as restricting specific class choices to specific races only it gives more ways to gimp yourself. If Orc Warrior is the only good warrior, then only orcs should be warriors. If goblins make poor warriors, goblins shouldn't have that as an option.

But I don't care about babysitting stupid players. Let them make their poor choices if they want to, however I do mind it when those same ignorant people claim this is "depth". More choices to gimp yourself is not depth no matter how you spin it.



Depth...
One path to take or many paths to take?

 

Is every hero you read about or watch perfect? What do you base your character's perfection on? Does any of your characters have a flaw? One flaw that lends (OMG) depth to them?

I know... Your character is just a bunch of pixels with numbers attached to them. The bigger the numbers, the better the character. Kind of like FPS games, no? Who cares if they have pointy ears or a smushed up nose, or short or tall? I realize your gaming style is more popular, but races do add depth to a game.

Races add depth to character creation (new and non-human looks, inherent or special abilities, and possibly special affinities (like magic, smithing, bows).

Races add depth to lore, like which race was created first or last? Is there an immortal type race? What races were created by what Gods?

Races add depth to the world with racial cities, like tree towns, underground complexes, maybe even water villages.

I suppose one could argue that one race could cover all of this, but they would have very little imagination. Imagination which is the foundation of fantasy MMORPGs.

Also, no one asked you to "babysit" anybody. Kill them with your perfect cookie cutter character (exactly like every other perfect cookie cutter character you copied from a website) and laugh in their faces. I really see no depth what-so-ever in that. Everyone ends up playing the exact same thing.

What I wrote went completely over your head, didn't it? You sure proved that with your last paragraph. If everyone ends up playing the same build, because it is the only good one, then the game is shallow. You gimp yourself all you want, but again, don't claim its depth.

Which one would you choose:

  • Shoot yourself in the hand
  • Shoot yourself in the foot
  • Shoot yourself in the head
  • Don't shoot yourself
There is no depth when only one of the choices is good!

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

1/12/13 2:57:04 AM#85
Originally posted by NorseGod

Anyways, in my defense, my thoughts on the matter go well beyond biology. Due to the RoC, I cannot freely express my thoughts in regards to the use of the word "race" incorrectly replacing the word "species" . Such as the purpose or intent, for example. I just limited myself to pointing out the fact that the use of the word "race" and "species" is technically incorrect from scientific fact. Not an PhD level of understanding, but a fact that is commonly learned in the most basic biology curriculum.

 

Then i think your thought process is not deep enough, because imo almost everything that is beeing discussed here and what happens and is done in and to these games goes into a completely opposite direction as that what you are hinting at.

Scientific fact is based on proof and experimentation and stuff like that, proving and demonstrating that a fictional character is of a different species as an other fictional character could be quite difficult, especially if the author says that they can produce hybrids...

Flame on!

:)

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2622

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

1/12/13 3:02:22 AM#86
Originally posted by Grunty

And just which race should all avatars be? How restrictive should that race's individual appearance be? Should they all be one gender? One color?  One height? One age? One weight?

How boring do you want avatars to be?

 

Asherons Cal had 3 races at release, all Humans (Asian, British & Middle Eastern) and all races were the same size but it was the cosmetics and armor you worse that differentiated you.  Instead of having 20 races and 7-8 armor skins at endgame you had 3 races and about 14 milltion armor/appearance combinations.  So which type has the greater variety?  AC!

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5087

1/12/13 4:29:27 AM#87

Gaming studios think we like races in MMO’s, practically fantasy ones, so they are here to stay. I like them myself and I don’t think they take away from other aspects of the game. Less human models for more other race models. Less human lore for more other race lore. I don’t see this as a sinkhole for devs time, if they are not detailing other races they would have more on humans.

  Isawa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/20/08
Posts: 1066

1/12/13 4:38:33 AM#88
SWG was great for races. Star Wars with actual Races, sorry SWTOR = FAIL.
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11822

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

1/12/13 6:40:23 AM#89
Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

Seems it great fashion for latest game design to bring several races, more or less pretty or ugly.

Was there a time when MMOs didn't have a diverse set of races? Is there something in particular about the latest game design of races that you dislike?

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11822

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

1/12/13 6:45:52 AM#90
Originally posted by azzamasin

Asherons Cal had 3 races at release, all Humans (Asian, British & Middle Eastern) and all races were the same size but it was the cosmetics and armor you worse that differentiated you.  Instead of having 20 races and 7-8 armor skins at endgame you had 3 races and about 14 milltion armor/appearance combinations.  So which type has the greater variety?  AC!

Good point. AC's gear diversity was the result of an extensive dying system and dynamic loot. By keeping the races similar in side but diverse in minor appearances it allowed the player far greater customization, diversity and choice in other selections.

More races would have meant either just different skin hues on the same models (boring) or different character models, which would have impacted the ability to churn out cool, customizable gear.

  NL-Rikkert

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/22/11
Posts: 121

Currently playing:Mount & Blade,Smite,Chivalry MW,LoL

1/12/13 12:08:27 PM#91
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
Go play Guild Wars 1.. PROBLEM SOLVED, THREAD CLOSED!

Not really an MMO

Had to say it :P

Wow really? Was expecting a reply, but not this stoopid.. 

Last time I checked having a few thousand players in an online game environment communicating with eachother, that was still called a MMO.. 

 

But please do be so kind to "enlighten" us with your endless wisdom on the definition of a MMO..?

STOOPID
When someone does something so utterly moronic that it kills your brain cells at the very thought of it.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18716

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

1/12/13 12:15:46 PM#92
Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
Go play Guild Wars 1.. PROBLEM SOLVED, THREAD CLOSED!

Not really an MMO

Had to say it :P

Wow really? Was expecting a reply, but not this stoopid.. 

Last time I checked having a few thousand players in an online game environment communicating with eachother, that was still called a MMO.. 

 

But please do be so kind to "enlighten" us with your endless wisdom on the definition of a MMO..?

 

Cooperative online role playing game is how ANET described GW1 themselves actually, go look it up.

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  bizoux86

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 85

1/12/13 12:22:56 PM#93

I love having lots of races to choose from in games. I can't stand it when a game has severely limited options for races, usually if the game only offers 1 or 2 races they are so human-like that I don't even want to play! I want to play fantasy games where there are a vast amount of differences among the avatars, I don't want to play a clone of what everyone else is playing - how boring.

 

  madazz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1299

1/12/13 12:24:43 PM#94
Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
Go play Guild Wars 1.. PROBLEM SOLVED, THREAD CLOSED!

Not really an MMO

Had to say it :P

Wow really? Was expecting a reply, but not this stoopid.. 

Last time I checked having a few thousand players in an online game environment communicating with eachother, that was still called a MMO.. 

 

But please do be so kind to "enlighten" us with your endless wisdom on the definition of a MMO..?

There is a difference between a chatroom and a game world.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16939

1/12/13 12:26:32 PM#95

We need races if it makes sense in the world to have races.

Just throwing in a slime man, bug man, cat man, elf man, etc. isn't going to work if it seems incongrous to the world.

 

  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

1/12/13 8:03:53 PM#96
Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
Go play Guild Wars 1.. PROBLEM SOLVED, THREAD CLOSED!

Not really an MMO

Had to say it :P

Wow really? Was expecting a reply, but not this stoopid.. 

Last time I checked having a few thousand players in an online game environment communicating with eachother, that was still called a MMO.. 

 

But please do be so kind to "enlighten" us with your endless wisdom on the definition of a MMO..?

Don't reply to that. They're just trolling you.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2899

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

1/13/13 12:28:29 AM#97


Originally posted by Quirhid
You gimp yourself all you want, but again, don't claim its depth.

Which one would you choose:

  • Shoot yourself in the hand
  • Shoot yourself in the foot
  • Shoot yourself in the head
  • Don't shoot yourself

There is no depth when only one of the choices is good!


Again, I ask what you decided was not worthy of a response:
Does a character with a flaw or two have more depth than a perfect character, or not?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Lovely_Laly

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 736

game is also real

 
OP  1/13/13 1:38:32 AM#98

LoTRO sure does need races, it comes out of it's origin. Here we don't even need to discuss.

GW1 worked very well with humans, although game is outdated by now in term of character customization,
which I see to be really deep for good game. I'm pretty much agree with people who wants less races but more custom options, so do I.
race don't need to be human or even dwarf, not sure about you, but I'm sorta bored of same menu at most of fantasy games. Si-Fi has own reasons, so they need more races IMO.

why not make 2 races without prof restrictions and with balanced race ability (like one can regen HP but 2nd take way less damage, just an example).

and why not elf (seems all like them) and banshee (only saw as NPC so far); lets devs create deep lore and large home worlds for both; lets them to be different to the point not to see they are all same, but keep distance between races.
Sure we can make 4 races (for more options), but it will, IMO, eat time could be used to make better starter areas etc.

Factions can be good or bad, all against all may work as good as PvP (some games use it, I'm not fun of PvP, but found arena at Atlantica fun).

I asked what you guys thinking as lately I don't really see deep race design, more some appearance and sometime not even that much difference.
So I though devs doing just cosmetic races to get us interested about.
As they fail to offer deep race interpretation, IMO again, I vote for less races but better work.

Thanks all for answers, even trolls were lovely! =

try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  MadDemon64

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1064

Why is it that fantasy trolls are vulnerable to fire, but internet trolls thrive on flame wars?

1/13/13 1:46:55 AM#99

I honestly prefer when multiple races are in a game and I get to play as any (or at least most) of them.  I have lived my entire life as a human; why not take the opportunity to not be human when given the chance?

Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  loulaki

Elite Member

Joined: 12/20/11
Posts: 773

1/13/13 8:02:26 AM#100

TSW and EVE dont have races but factions  ^^

 

i play GW2 and they only reason i made human (alt ) is for the female thief cultural armor of tier 3 ...

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