Originally posted by Maephisto

Originally posted by asmkm22

Originally posted by Maephisto

The common denominator in all your failed relationships, is you.

 

or bad game design.

Ok, i'll bite.

I posit that the OP is a bad gamer (spoiled), based on his post. 

Lets assume two things:

1. OP is an average gamer with responsibilities outside of gaming.  He/she plays games on an average of 20 hrs a week.
2. Lets take "personal opinion" out of the equation. (ceteris paribus)

OP stated he went from GW2 to Eve Online.   In order to firmly grasp GW2 and all the mechanics of its combat system, I would say a player would have to play for approx 2 months.  That includes leveling to 80 and playing at that level for some time.  OP didnt enjoy GW2 and moved to Eve.  The amount of time required to fully grasp Eve is off the charts.  Taking "personal opinion" ** off the table, the OP didnt play Eve anywhere close to the amount of time it would require to form a complete opinion of the game.  I doubt he/she was even able to get to lvl 3 mission running by that time, we arent even mentioning PvP yet.

 

You cant cry "bad game design" when you dont play the game long enough to understand it.   I think it is just popular to say that all MMO's are trash/garbage instead of taking the time to become proficient at them.  There is a portion of the community here that will never be satisfied with any MMO, regardless of its merits.

 

Come on, you cannot say Eve has bad game design.

 

**  it is understandable for some people to start playing eve and immediately become overwhelmed/intimidated by everything you have to learn.  Lots of people play Eve for a shirt period of time and never go back to it.  I can understand why.  I was never able to get far into eve, although I enjoyed it greatly.

 

I know nothing of GW2.  but i do know a thing or 2 bout eve(played there for over 2 years, darquies was my ign)  Let me give you a synopsis of Eve.  Eve produces a patch.  gaming comunity goes over patch with microscope and finds the "exploits" if you will with the new item capabilities and designs that the patch now creates.  Eve then comes out with a series of overall nerfs to said "exploits" rince, repeat.  And then we have to talk about the overall timesink that skills are(at first i liked it, but i believe it's now time for a hybrid skilling system for Eve, 50% time/50% skill/item use)

I been gaming since 2000, with jumpgate being my first then heading over to EQ.  I also have a endgame Char in WOW(darquies from lighteninghoof).  With WoW it's the "flavor of the month" and the fact that they saw Kung Fu Panda and Really Liked it.  The Pandas don't bother me too much as does thier "flavor of the month/patch" style. 

At one time WoW was the leader and had fresh content as well as balance from what lil i could tell(Though i started in BC) But now it's Crap and all the models that have followed has been crap as well.  There isn't any fresh or new stuff out there cause these gaming companies Have to make a buck no matter what(even buying the competition and letting it die a slow painful death [Vanguard])

I agree with OP but what i'm finding hardest to read is all the negative comments here, seriously peeps some of you really need to take the stick out of ya. 

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by vandal5627

Originally posted by Maephisto

Originally posted by asmkm22

Originally posted by Maephisto

The common denominator in all your failed relationships, is you.

 

or bad game design.

Ok, i'll bite.

I posit that the OP is a bad gamer (spoiled), based on his post. 

Lets assume two things:

1. OP is an average gamer with responsibilities outside of gaming.  He/she plays games on an average of 20 hrs a week.
2. Lets take "personal opinion" out of the equation. (ceteris paribus)

OP stated he went from GW2 to Eve Online.   In order to firmly grasp GW2 and all the mechanics of its combat system, I would say a player would have to play for approx 2 months.  That includes leveling to 80 and playing at that level for some time.  OP didnt enjoy GW2 and moved to Eve.  The amount of time required to fully grasp Eve is off the charts.  Taking "personal opinion" ** off the table, the OP didnt play Eve anywhere close to the amount of time it would require to form a complete opinion of the game.  I doubt he/she was even able to get to lvl 3 mission running by that time, we arent even mentioning PvP yet.

 

You cant cry "bad game design" when you dont play the game long enough to understand it.   I think it is just popular to say that all MMO's are trash/garbage instead of taking the time to become proficient at them.  There is a portion of the community here that will never be satisfied with any MMO, regardless of its merits.

 

Come on, you cannot say Eve has bad game design.

 

**  it is understandable for some people to start playing eve and immediately become overwhelmed/intimidated by everything you have to learn.  Lots of people play Eve for a shirt period of time and never go back to it.  I can understand why.  I was never able to get far into eve, although I enjoyed it greatly.

 Every game is at least a bad design to someone, just saying.  If not, we'd all be playing the same game.

There's a big difference between "bad design" and preference.

 Good and bad design is not black and white.  I can say certain games are badly designed, doesnt make me right or wrong, it's just my opinion.  He said EVE cannot have bad design and it's his opinion, doesnt mean he's right.  Also, my preference in design choices helps me come to my opinion that some games are badly designed, doesn't mean others dont think it's a good desgin.  In the end, it's all subjective.  There's no right or wrong but there's not a huge difference as you think it is.

Originally posted by Zethlis

Originally posted by dalewj

I totally agree the industry has gone the wrong way.  I am playing Indie games, they aren't part of the industry and for Sandbox MMORPGs (my thing) I am very happy.

 

--Dale>

Any games in particular?

At the moment http://afterworld.ru is the game im into.  Its a bit young yet, but upgrading every week

Originally posted by Maephisto

Originally posted by asmkm22

Originally posted by Maephisto

The common denominator in all your failed relationships, is you.

 

or bad game design.

Ok, i'll bite.

I posit that the OP is a bad gamer (spoiled), based on his post. 

Lets assume two things:

1. OP is an average gamer with responsibilities outside of gaming.  He/she plays games on an average of 20 hrs a week.
2. Lets take "personal opinion" out of the equation. (ceteris paribus)

OP stated he went from GW2 to Eve Online.   In order to firmly grasp GW2 and all the mechanics of its combat system, I would say a player would have to play for approx 2 months.  That includes leveling to 80 and playing at that level for some time.  OP didnt enjoy GW2 and moved to Eve.  The amount of time required to fully grasp Eve is off the charts.  Taking "personal opinion" ** off the table, the OP didnt play Eve anywhere close to the amount of time it would require to form a complete opinion of the game.  I doubt he/she was even able to get to lvl 3 mission running by that time, we arent even mentioning PvP yet.

 

You cant cry "bad game design" when you dont play the game long enough to understand it.   I think it is just popular to say that all MMO's are trash/garbage instead of taking the time to become proficient at them.  There is a portion of the community here that will never be satisfied with any MMO, regardless of its merits.

 

Come on, you cannot say Eve has bad game design.

 

**  it is understandable for some people to start playing eve and immediately become overwhelmed/intimidated by everything you have to learn.  Lots of people play Eve for a shirt period of time and never go back to it.  I can understand why.  I was never able to get far into eve, although I enjoyed it greatly.

If it takes months and months to grasp how a game works, then yeah, I'd say there are some bad designs in place.  As for Eve, I think it's great that some people really love the game.  I personally found it to be complicated to the point of not being immersive.  I felt like I was filing taxes.  The last time I played it, I spent several hours just running through the basic tutorials, none of which were exciting or made me feel like I wanted to see more of what the game offered.  Again, it was like reading the instructions on how to file taxes.  So yeah, I'd say Eve has some pretty bad game design that turns a lot of people off.

GW2 is on the opposite end of the spectrum.  It's rediculously easy to grasp, and I really have to disagree that it takes months to understand it.  Once you've hit about level 30, you know pretty much everything there is to know about the game, for better or for worse, because the game lacks any kind of complexity.

Back to Eve though:  it feels like those comments you hear once in a while, about people you're going to meet, where they say stuff like "she comes off as a real bitch at first, but if you take the time to get to know her, she's really a cool person."  The fact is, if she's such a cool person, I shouldn't have to "take the time" to get to know her; her being cool should just show right off the bat.  Same thing with Eve;  I'm sure it's a great game once you've invested tens and hundreds of hours into fighting the archaic interface and controls to get to the fun parts, but that seems pretty bad considering they charge a monthly sub.

Originally posted by asmkm22

Originally posted by Maephisto

Originally posted by asmkm22

Originally posted by Maephisto

The common denominator in all your failed relationships, is you.

 

or bad game design.

Ok, i'll bite.

I posit that the OP is a bad gamer (spoiled), based on his post. 

Lets assume two things:

1. OP is an average gamer with responsibilities outside of gaming.  He/she plays games on an average of 20 hrs a week.
2. Lets take "personal opinion" out of the equation. (ceteris paribus)

OP stated he went from GW2 to Eve Online.   In order to firmly grasp GW2 and all the mechanics of its combat system, I would say a player would have to play for approx 2 months.  That includes leveling to 80 and playing at that level for some time.  OP didnt enjoy GW2 and moved to Eve.  The amount of time required to fully grasp Eve is off the charts.  Taking "personal opinion" ** off the table, the OP didnt play Eve anywhere close to the amount of time it would require to form a complete opinion of the game.  I doubt he/she was even able to get to lvl 3 mission running by that time, we arent even mentioning PvP yet.

 

You cant cry "bad game design" when you dont play the game long enough to understand it.   I think it is just popular to say that all MMO's are trash/garbage instead of taking the time to become proficient at them.  There is a portion of the community here that will never be satisfied with any MMO, regardless of its merits.

 

Come on, you cannot say Eve has bad game design.

 

**  it is understandable for some people to start playing eve and immediately become overwhelmed/intimidated by everything you have to learn.  Lots of people play Eve for a shirt period of time and never go back to it.  I can understand why.  I was never able to get far into eve, although I enjoyed it greatly.

If it takes months and months to grasp how a game works, then yeah, I'd say there are some bad designs in place.  As for Eve, I think it's great that some people really love the game.  I personally found it to be complicated to the point of not being immersive.  I felt like I was filing taxes.  The last time I played it, I spent several hours just running through the basic tutorials, none of which were exciting or made me feel like I wanted to see more of what the game offered.  Again, it was like reading the instructions on how to file taxes.  So yeah, I'd say Eve has some pretty bad game design that turns a lot of people off.

GW2 is on the opposite end of the spectrum.  It's rediculously easy to grasp, and I really have to disagree that it takes months to understand it.  Once you've hit about level 30, you know pretty much everything there is to know about the game, for better or for worse, because the game lacks any kind of complexity.

 

Back to Eve though:  it feels like those comments you hear once in a while, about people you're going to meet, where they say stuff like "she comes off as a real bitch at first, but if you take the time to get to know her, she's really a cool person."  The fact is, if she's such a cool person, I shouldn't have to "take the time" to get to know her; her being cool should just show right off the bat.  Same thing with Eve;  I'm sure it's a great game once you've invested tens and hundreds of hours into fighting the archaic interface and controls to get to the fun parts, but that seems pretty bad considering they charge a monthly sub.

You are trying to judge quality game mechanics by involving personal opinion.  This practice is similar to arguing over who the most beautiful woman is.  Anyways....

As for Eve, you call it poor game design because it is not an inviting game.  CCP and the community as a whole has actually made it clear they dont want this game to be inviting to the everyday gamer.  The community only wants a bunch of new players once a year during  hulkageddon.  Funny stuff actually.  KILL ALL THE CAREBEARS.

As for GW2, your opinion is a popular one on these forums.  Now, this is not meant as a personal attack but is simply my personal opinion.  If someone played GW2 and believes they have learned all they need to learn by lvl 30;  that person never acquired any real level of skill in this game.  More than likely this person was a mindless zerg drone in WvW or some PvE equivalent.  GW2 has quite a bit of depth and diversity, especially with the necro, mesmer and engie.  Those who play those classes do not have a complete understanding of the capabilities of these classes by lvl 30.  Many of the profession have multiple roles with multiple viable builds.  Builds have numerous synergies. 

This GW2 arguement might roll of the tongue easily.  However, the consequence to those who use it is they reveal themselves to be a less than mediocre player.

I agree with the op i have been playing mmo's since 2001 (FFXI) and have been a part of several beta tests as well as mmo launches (RF online, Guild Wars 1 and 2, Darkfall, SWTOR, etc) and you've pretty much summed it up in your original post.

We have to remember that especially in a recession-era most of these profit-maximizing firms are interested in just that, profit-maximizing not risking being innovative when that is likely to result in a loss if not adhering to the current wow formula.

Many of the games on the horizon do look promising however, although obviously we have to take that with a grain of salt considering recent history but currently I am just playing LoL until FFXIV: ARR is launched.

I would consider checking it out, many haters will point out the grind or failure of the launch of ffxiv as a reason to stay away, but anyone who has been following the new dev team that took over 2 years ago will tell you that the drastic changes are moving the game back towards some of the beloved features in FFXI that is STILL successful and has not gone f2p like most games.

I've always preferred non-western mmo's myself because they always have a higher risk/reward, where players who adhere to greater strategies and form connections with crafters and GOOD players in the community will actually be recognized for it.  Also this team doesn't have some random investors (EA for example) holding a gun to their heads forcing them to make a wow clone to earn a quick $, they are trying to save a brand name and i've never seen a more polished alpha.

If thats not your type of thing Neverwinter and Darkfall UW also have some innovative concepts and are close to release, although i'll warn you i tried Darkfall UW beta for a while and it seems (in my opinion) to be quite buggy for a game that was supposed to launch last year, and the dev team always seems to be coming out with excuses for their slow progress...

Originally posted by Indrome

The only thing that really fits your description of your desired experience is real life, I'm afraid.

But the loot table sucks

And the respawn timer is perma broken !!!!

Originally posted by joojoo1975

I agree with OP but what i'm finding hardest to read is all the negative comments here, seriously peeps some of you really need to take the stick out of ya. 

 

Just remember that it's a double-ender stick

1 end for us, the other firmly planted in the OP.

Originally posted by Zethlis

Originally posted by dalewj

I totally agree the industry has gone the wrong way.  I am playing Indie games, they aren't part of the industry and for Sandbox MMORPGs (my thing) I am very happy.

 

--Dale>

Any games in particular?

Puddle.

cheap, simple to understand, fun and challenging at same time.

Reccomendation for anyone looking for a new game. If you want something mainstream, then follow the major gaming news network sources. If you looking for something with origional content go look for the back streets of the internet.

A once good example of that is Dungeon Inquisitor, back in april with I started playing it was somewhere between the good old Dungeon Keeper games and the HTML OGame origional feel. There've been a lot of changes in the last couple of months because of players like me who did years of beta testing and will run a game through the gauntlet looking for exploitable features, but the inverse to that is that I also helped write a few friend write what are now the official guides for the game as well. It's a game that will never have the graphical flash of WoW (I really hate that game btw, beta tested it and was borded to death of it the moment I realized every damn activity in the game was spoon feed to you from the Developer, told them my opinion too, but I digress)...what DI lacks in flare it makes up for in player freedoms in a game premise that is essintially untapped for potential. Face it, more copies of Leauge of Villans sold over Leauge of Heros, because sometimes we just like to be the bad guy.

Don't belive me, go watch a friend play any of the Elder Scrolls after 2, where if you do it right you can steal the clothes off the person wearing them and sell it to the nearest (also naked) store owner.

Point being, the games you find will depend on where you look for them. There are a few developers that I reccomend like Nexon since I've been playing all of their games as far back as Dark Ages and have been impressed with most all of them for their deviations from Main Stream-Cookie Cutter Games that get a few thousand knock-offs made too, but they aren't so far outside of mainstream that people can't make the transition from the games that everyone knows to the games that actually fit what they're looking for.

And as for the orrigional message that mentioned why MMORPGs are all the same now, it's because too few players actually Role Play anymore. Which isn't dependant on the game manufactuers to force players to stay in character, that's on the players to make players and then stay in character. The issue with RPGs sucking these days is a matter of player issues, not developer problems. Role Playing is just acting for geeks in a venue of their choice, and Vin Diesel isn't the only actor who says they started acting playing tabletop D&D. Better RPGs are the resopncibilities of the player, the Developer only gives you the play ground.

Originally posted by Rodentofdoom

Originally posted by joojoo1975

I agree with OP but what i'm finding hardest to read is all the negative comments here, seriously peeps some of you really need to take the stick out of ya. 

 

Just remember that it's a double-ender stick

 

1 end for us, the other firmly planted in the OP.

Lol I find it funny how everyone either chooses to agree with me or attack me. I think the people agreeing with me are sensible and experienced, and those insulting me are easily amused and take offense to people criticizing the simplicity of their enjoyment. There's not a single sensible argument that you can give saying that MMOs haven't gotten stale over the past years, so quit trying to scapegoat the truth by circumventing your anger.

Originally posted by Zethlis

I started with Runescape. Then WoW. Then SWG (Wasn't THAT bad). Then Tabula Rasa. Then Warhammer. Then SWTOR which I waited for every single day since I heard of it being worked on in 2009, busted my balls. Then Wurm. Then GW2. Then EVE. And after that they stopped being worth remembering game titles. Why has the MMORPG industry gone from the most creative and influential to this cynical cancerous cyst? What are CEOs thinking when they make a business plan that comes down to - copy WoW and cash out as much as we can before we close the doors.

It's ridiculous how marginal the advancement of MMOs has become. I know I'm not alone in these feelings. Right now I'm counting the days to when Embers of Caerus will be released and I won't have to worry about horrible MMOs anymore, but that's a good 3 or so years away. I need something to sate my appetite and my appetite isn't end game raids and pvp. MMOs shouldn't HAVE an end game. You should never get to the point where you can't even think of anything else to do because you've already done it, but this is the MMO market of today.

Are there any innovative MMOs that are either already out there or very close to release that I haven't heard about? Surfing the list of 600 sum MMOs would take a good month. I'm about to abandon MMOs entirely because I've just lost so much faith in the genre.

HALP PLZ

The best you can do is just stop buying the games. I know it sucks, because you want to have an MMO. But think of it, why support the vision of a developer you don't agree with? Personally, I think most MMOs are not worth playing. 

Originally posted by Zethlis

Originally posted by Kaminaxius

From what you wrote it sounds like you want a less WoW-copied MMO with more freedom and other incentives than mindless raiding

 

..i'd suggest you to try Darkfall:Unholy Wars when it launches (hopefully in less than a month or two) and perhaps Mortal Online which is already out and went free to play but has alot of flaws however it's still fun nontheless (I would recommend waiting for Darkfall:Unholy Wars which is currently in very early beta stage). Both of these mmo's are completely freedom-based mmo's this is an unofficial trailer of the first Darkfall game which basically sums up what Darkfall Unholy Wars will be about aswellt:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bYYT6Wg3Gg

I heard darkfall fell short of many people's expectations

Its a beta and people took it as a demo, instead of complained bout bugs mostly the core concept is good AV just need to fix the bugs and tweak it a bit, Also it seems to developers are finaly just reliseing people want something different than the same stuff we been getting. I got my eye on SoE next major title Everquest Next curtrent code name, one major reason they openly stated that people want a change they gone back to the drawing boards twice already cause people dont want WoW clones anymore, They stated its going to give more freedom sandboxy features prob be a hybrid i reckon. It is also SoE favorite title Norrath has always had a special place in SoE heart and they go all out on it compared to there other titles. It seems Everquest Next will be a game to keep an eye on this year we apparently gonna see a playable version at there fan fair this year so game may be out early next year most likly.

Originally posted by Doogiehowser

Runescape.. if that i s what you comparing todays MMO to and caling them garbage..well you should be the last person OP from whom i should take any advice regarding quality if modern MMOS.

Runescape..lol

Runescape concept is acualy pritty good imo. Probaly has one of the best harvesting system. I would love to see that harvesting/crafting system in a new game but u just dont see it very often unfortuenly. i liked how certain ores can be found in certain mining sites and so on the more remote ones offered more or higher amount of nodes to hit.

Originally posted by joojoo1975

Originally posted by Maephisto

Originally posted by asmkm22

Originally posted by Maephisto

The common denominator in all your failed relationships, is you.

 

or bad game design.

Ok, i'll bite.

I posit that the OP is a bad gamer (spoiled), based on his post. 

Lets assume two things:

1. OP is an average gamer with responsibilities outside of gaming.  He/she plays games on an average of 20 hrs a week.
2. Lets take "personal opinion" out of the equation. (ceteris paribus)

OP stated he went from GW2 to Eve Online.   In order to firmly grasp GW2 and all the mechanics of its combat system, I would say a player would have to play for approx 2 months.  That includes leveling to 80 and playing at that level for some time.  OP didnt enjoy GW2 and moved to Eve.  The amount of time required to fully grasp Eve is off the charts.  Taking "personal opinion" ** off the table, the OP didnt play Eve anywhere close to the amount of time it would require to form a complete opinion of the game.  I doubt he/she was even able to get to lvl 3 mission running by that time, we arent even mentioning PvP yet.

 

You cant cry "bad game design" when you dont play the game long enough to understand it.   I think it is just popular to say that all MMO's are trash/garbage instead of taking the time to become proficient at them.  There is a portion of the community here that will never be satisfied with any MMO, regardless of its merits.

 

Come on, you cannot say Eve has bad game design.

 

**  it is understandable for some people to start playing eve and immediately become overwhelmed/intimidated by everything you have to learn.  Lots of people play Eve for a shirt period of time and never go back to it.  I can understand why.  I was never able to get far into eve, although I enjoyed it greatly.

 

I know nothing of GW2.  but i do know a thing or 2 bout eve(played there for over 2 years, darquies was my ign)  Let me give you a synopsis of Eve.  Eve produces a patch.  gaming comunity goes over patch with microscope and finds the "exploits" if you will with the new item capabilities and designs that the patch now creates.  Eve then comes out with a series of overall nerfs to said "exploits" rince, repeat.  And then we have to talk about the overall timesink that skills are(at first i liked it, but i believe it's now time for a hybrid skilling system for Eve, 50% time/50% skill/item use)

 

I been gaming since 2000, with jumpgate being my first then heading over to EQ.  I also have a endgame Char in WOW(darquies from lighteninghoof).  With WoW it's the "flavor of the month" and the fact that they saw Kung Fu Panda and Really Liked it.  The Pandas don't bother me too much as does thier "flavor of the month/patch" style. 

 

At one time WoW was the leader and had fresh content as well as balance from what lil i could tell(Though i started in BC) But now it's Crap and all the models that have followed has been crap as well.  There isn't any fresh or new stuff out there cause these gaming companies Have to make a buck no matter what(even buying the competition and letting it die a slow painful death [Vanguard])

I agree with OP but what i'm finding hardest to read is all the negative comments here, seriously peeps some of you really need to take the stick out of ya. 

 

 

 

On the vanguard note Sigil was running out of fund to make the game they then the game was release to early because they were out of money, one of the developers of Sigil was a good friend of a major person in SoE who then purchased the game from Sigil so they didnt go bankruped, Vanguard has made good progress however a little to late due to most people quitting after the game was released incomplete.

Originally posted by Scooch25
Try WoW

Would rather play hello kitty than WoW  :P