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  User Deleted
1/11/13 11:13:45 AM#41
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by dumpcat
Yes OP I remember SWG...

I think it was more then just SWG and UO,  even games like CoH and FE had good things going for them in terms of community, socializing, and in some cases grouping.

 

FE had a ton of hype both before and after release.  To me it looked like it was going to be a major hit.  I've never figured out what caused its fall from fame.  It seems to have gotten shoved to the back of the closet and forgotten.

 

  hercules

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/03
Posts: 4786

1/11/13 11:20:23 AM#42
Friendship=long sub.i stuck in daoc eq and wow way longer because of this.when wow introducwd standing in a city and click to join i left and never looked baxk
  Latronus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 718

PC is not political correctness, it means Political Cowardice!

1/11/13 11:36:12 AM#43
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Latronus

But I will say that what you say is true.  Group finders, especially cross server group finders destroyed server community.  Oh wait, yet another reason why WoW is responsible for destroying the genre.

Do you figure blizzard came up with that idea all by themselves or did the community demand it? I certainly remember which of those it was. People get pissed when it takes them 4 hours to get a group together for a 20 minute run...that's how they came into being.

It really wasn't an evil plot to dumb-down the genre lol.

I didn't say it was a plot.  Blizzard saw an opportunity to make a game that the casual gamers could play and realized that there were more of them than the hard core players.  More players means more money.  It was a good business decision on their part.  A good business decision on their part equals the dumbed down, no life, no community games that we have to choose from today. 

I never said that Blizzard intended or planned that things would go this way.  They happened.  Blizzard started the trend and until a game comes out that breaks this mold and becomes successful, we will continue to have games developed that have no sole or sense of community.  The trend started with Blizzard so, it's their fault.

besides, I NEVER waited 4 hours for a group that lasted 20 minutes in EQ.  NEVER.  I think the longest I ever waited was 10.  If you are decent at your job, your name gets out and you will be wanted in groups.  I would log in and have tells asking me if i had a group yet a lot of the time.  I was an Iksar Monk and was pretty good at pulling in those days.  That was before the tank had to pull, probably before your time.  I set the pace for the entire group, and would train others that tried to infringe on my camp.  Ah, the good old days, again, you probably have no idea what a train is.  And no I ain't talking the choo choo type.

  MadnessRealm

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2690

Ignorance is Bliss.

1/11/13 2:06:03 PM#44
Originally posted by Iselin

If I hadn't been there, your arguments would almost make sense, but I was there and lived the evolution. I have played one or more MMOs constantly since I started with Asheron's Call in 1999. I can't think of a single 2013, MMO convenience feature that wasn't instigated by us because we disliked or got tired of what it replaced.

It was we, the veteran MMOers who wanted an end to corpse runs and loss of inventory, we wanted something better than the honor system for trades, we wanted faster travel to the quest area or dungeon, we didn't want to waste hours trying to form a group to do a 30 minute quest. We demanded, auction houses, group finders, instant travel, mounts and mild death penalties.... and we wanted something fun to do when we only could log-in for 30 minutes.

Now we're having second thoughts and wondering if maybe we went too far and some of the convenience features are ruinning the experience. But I don't take as gospel that a nostalgic return to the old ways is the way to go. And I bet you that every old MMO vet has at least one of those convenience features that they would want to keep regardless of how harsh they want their ideal sandbox to be... more than likely something related to inventory management.

What I find silly and frustrating are all the suggestions here devoid of any creativity that just want some old features brought back because the old ways were better. They weren't and we got rid of a lot of the old things for good reasons.

I get a lot more excited and see more promise in new ideas not rehashing the same old crap even if it's very old crap that hasn't been done in the last 10 years. It's still old shit to me.

You mention soloing and grouping. The solution to the problem of modern grouping isn't to be found in old ways of doing it--that would just lead to repeating the same old problems. What's needed is something new like on-the-fly variable difficulty to accomodate groups of different sizes in an inclusive and fluid way. Something like what GW2 has attempted with dynamic events but done right as a permanent replacement for groups and raids, not just a 3rd option.

MMOs in 2013 are anything but perfect, but as a whole, they're a hell of an improvement over what existed 20 years ago. I know that's not what the cool kids like saying here but there it is. Improvements are to be found by moving forward not just resurrecting old dead crap.

I was there as well (UO, and FFXI however), but perhaps not from the same perspective. I used to play mostly as a dedicated crafter and saw my purpose as crafter continuously diminish over time as loot-based items became more interesting than crafted items.

It's true that a lot of veterans have asked for many changes (corpse runs), but things like instant travel and pugs didn't come out purely because of veterans. They came when the genre was already "mainstream", and this mainstream audience has continuously asked for faster access to every feature or mechanic since.

Whether old features were removed for good reasons or not is debatable. There are pros and cons to everything, just like there are for the current MMOs features. Older MMOs features created a more community-driven MMORPGs were as current MMORPGs are more solo-driven. Gamers who liked community-driven MMORPGs may like the older features and vice-versa.

As far as your solution to soloing vs. grouping, I don't think it would solve the issue. For one, DE groups in GW2 are groups of individual players that don't even bother interacting with each others. Classes are also too independant to make teamwork more valuable.

Basically what we're asking is for one or two (playable) MMO to go back to the old roots and offer something different from the current crops of WoW-like MMORPGs. There are definitively some issues that needs to be addressed, but I don't think the current mechanics of current MMORPGs is the way to go in those cases (grouping and crafting comes to mind). Less focus vertical progression would be a great start for one, but there's so much to say to go on. 

I'll disagree with you that MMOs in 2013 are better than what existed in the past. Obviously I'm a little biased because the main purpose that brought me to MMOs to begin with was taken away (Crafting) but nonetheless, the older MMOs felt a lot more like Massively Multiplayer Online RPGs than the MMOs in 2013 which plays more like Single Player Online RPGs with Multiplayer.

------
Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3703

1/11/13 4:30:33 PM#45
Originally posted by MadnessRealm
Originally posted by Iselin

If I hadn't been there, your arguments would almost make sense, but I was there and lived the evolution. I have played one or more MMOs constantly since I started with Asheron's Call in 1999. I can't think of a single 2013, MMO convenience feature that wasn't instigated by us because we disliked or got tired of what it replaced.

It was we, the veteran MMOers who wanted an end to corpse runs and loss of inventory, we wanted something better than the honor system for trades, we wanted faster travel to the quest area or dungeon, we didn't want to waste hours trying to form a group to do a 30 minute quest. We demanded, auction houses, group finders, instant travel, mounts and mild death penalties.... and we wanted something fun to do when we only could log-in for 30 minutes.

Now we're having second thoughts and wondering if maybe we went too far and some of the convenience features are ruinning the experience. But I don't take as gospel that a nostalgic return to the old ways is the way to go. And I bet you that every old MMO vet has at least one of those convenience features that they would want to keep regardless of how harsh they want their ideal sandbox to be... more than likely something related to inventory management.

What I find silly and frustrating are all the suggestions here devoid of any creativity that just want some old features brought back because the old ways were better. They weren't and we got rid of a lot of the old things for good reasons.

I get a lot more excited and see more promise in new ideas not rehashing the same old crap even if it's very old crap that hasn't been done in the last 10 years. It's still old shit to me.

You mention soloing and grouping. The solution to the problem of modern grouping isn't to be found in old ways of doing it--that would just lead to repeating the same old problems. What's needed is something new like on-the-fly variable difficulty to accomodate groups of different sizes in an inclusive and fluid way. Something like what GW2 has attempted with dynamic events but done right as a permanent replacement for groups and raids, not just a 3rd option.

MMOs in 2013 are anything but perfect, but as a whole, they're a hell of an improvement over what existed 20 years ago. I know that's not what the cool kids like saying here but there it is. Improvements are to be found by moving forward not just resurrecting old dead crap.

I was there as well (UO, and FFXI however), but perhaps not from the same perspective. I used to play mostly as a dedicated crafter and saw my purpose as crafter continuously diminish over time as loot-based items became more interesting than crafted items.

It's true that a lot of veterans have asked for many changes (corpse runs), but things like instant travel and pugs didn't come out purely because of veterans. They came when the genre was already "mainstream", and this mainstream audience has continuously asked for faster access to every feature or mechanic since.

Whether old features were removed for good reasons or not is debatable. There are pros and cons to everything, just like there are for the current MMOs features. Older MMOs features created a more community-driven MMORPGs were as current MMORPGs are more solo-driven. Gamers who liked community-driven MMORPGs may like the older features and vice-versa.

As far as your solution to soloing vs. grouping, I don't think it would solve the issue. For one, DE groups in GW2 are groups of individual players that don't even bother interacting with each others. Classes are also too independant to make teamwork more valuable.

Basically what we're asking is for one or two (playable) MMO to go back to the old roots and offer something different from the current crops of WoW-like MMORPGs. There are definitively some issues that needs to be addressed, but I don't think the current mechanics of current MMORPGs is the way to go in those cases (grouping and crafting comes to mind). Less focus vertical progression would be a great start for one, but there's so much to say to go on. 

I'll disagree with you that MMOs in 2013 are better than what existed in the past. Obviously I'm a little biased because the main purpose that brought me to MMOs to begin with was taken away (Crafting) but nonetheless, the older MMOs felt a lot more like Massively Multiplayer Online RPGs than the MMOs in 2013 which plays more like Single Player Online RPGs with Multiplayer.

I appreciate your point of view (and kudos to you for disagreeing in a rational well-written way) and you're absolutely right: we have very different perspectives. I'm all about exploring, adventuring and progressing. My lack of interest in crafting and housing is right down there with fishing and pet collecting: to me they're optional side activities that bore me to death. The things I enjoy doing in MMOs all existed in the basic original D&D rulesets and, almost 40 years later, this is still what attracts me to the genre.

Having said that, I too expected MMOs to have evolved in a more inclusive way where alternate game-play styles were also accomodated. But the industry moved in a different direction--a direction that reflects modern social trends where its all about the quick fix and the briefest possible interaction with others.

Although its rather pointless to get involved in a chicken or egg argument about why MMOs evolved the way they have, I don't think your idea that shallow casual gameplay was created by the companies to attract and cater to the mainstream is historically acurate. I remember too well the complaints by the original MMORPG gamers about things such as too much wasted downtime forming groups and waiting for the AFK and competitive rare-spawn mob tagging, to blame more solo play opportunities and instancing of mobs in high-demand on the new crop of mainstream casuals: we wanted changes to be made and the industry solved our "problems" in their own ways. Were they solved the best way possible? Maybe not, but the point is that they were responding to what we, the original, early-adopting MMOers wanted.

I didn't mention GW2's DEs as an example of excellence, just as an example of a group of developers understanding the real problem and trying to address it. What is this "real problem?" Quite simply it's down-time and delays. Gamers have real lives that limit and interrupt their play time. They always have and they always will. And yet the vast majority of developers ignore that.

I believe that people really and truly would love to group up, synergize abilities and accomplish things together. That was the appeal in P&P D&D in the 70s and is still the appeal today. So knowing that, why in hell do developers still insist in programming activities that are either solo or that require an exact number of players with the exact proportion of classes to commit to a lengthy uninterrupted period of time? It is much more common to find only 8 people to do what requires 10, the class mix is hardly ever ideal, and in any given period of time people will come and go to answer the phone, eat, pee and poo. So why not design activities with the fluidity to accomodate that? If the 10 man content has a boss with 1,000,000 HPs and 20 Adds, why can't it change itself on the fly to a boss with 800,000 HPs and 16 adds when it notices that only 8 players are in the group? Seems pretty damn simple to me.

Well that's exactly the idea behind WAR's PQs, Rifts rifts and GW2's DEs: fun things to do that cater to whomever happens to be around and don't fall appart if Joe had to go take a crap. The problem is that all of those have been implemented as "third options." The games are still designed around solo or exact-number events primarily. GW2 perhaps has done it better than the others because they additionally have attempted to do away with the trinity with mixed success. But those are just first steps and there's a huge room for improvement.

But you know what? I'm not a developer. I expect the people who make a living doing this and want my money to come up with something infinitely better than what I can come-up with. And that isn't happening. What I see happening is either copying the same old systems because they made money over there, or bringing back something really old to appease the masses fed-up with WOWish games,

So I do agree with all of you who want change. And  I also agree that there would be a certain charm in a new UO or SWG redoux updated for 2013. But it wouldn't be progress or innovation: it would be just a temporary retreat or regrouping before they can figure out just what the hell they can do next.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19156

1/11/13 4:46:14 PM#46
Originally posted by Reklaw

nariusseldon: You probelby do not understand that those of us who want a more virtual world want to be entertained by that aswell it might not be the type of entertainment you seek. If I want fast entertainment I am lucky to enjoy allot of other genre of games. Never thought MMORPG would be put into the fast entertainment type, but long term entertaining virtual worlds to play in as we please at our own pace why rush if what's not done today can be done tomorrow/nextweek/month instead of being told what to do and rushing towards the same gameplay multiplayer games already offer.

How can i not understand when this "virtual world" thing is being flogged to death here every day? Don't confuse between understanding and agreeing. I just don't share that preference.

 

  ObiClownobi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/12
Posts: 189

1/11/13 4:49:26 PM#47
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Reklaw

nariusseldon: You probelby do not understand that those of us who want a more virtual world want to be entertained by that aswell it might not be the type of entertainment you seek. If I want fast entertainment I am lucky to enjoy allot of other genre of games. Never thought MMORPG would be put into the fast entertainment type, but long term entertaining virtual worlds to play in as we please at our own pace why rush if what's not done today can be done tomorrow/nextweek/month instead of being told what to do and rushing towards the same gameplay multiplayer games already offer.

How can i not understand when this "virtual world" thing is being flogged to death here every day? Don't confuse between understanding and agreeing. I just don't share that preference.

 

8432 posts, believe us, we know


"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

1/11/13 4:55:19 PM#48
Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

Do you remember ...

When you would log in to an MMO just to be in a different world?

 

When you would hang out in Taverns/Cantinas just to socialize?

 

When you would create a character build based on what you wanted rather then what was "viable"?

 

When a game would launch and would not be 100% perfect and that would be OKAY?

 

When you would group up with players for the fun of completing content instead of the rewards?

 

When you would become friends with those you grouped with instead of dropping them when the quest is over?

 

When getting to max level was the least of your concerns?

 

When playing that MMO was more of an experience then "just another game"?

 

When you could leave a game amicably instead of it being a "failure" or that you "regret buying it"?

 

When you would play a game regardless of its payment model because you enjoyed it?

 

When the MMO Experience was actually FUN?

 

What happened to those times?

Most of those things have nothing to do with a game and everything to do with the gamer which may have well been your point.

 

When the MMO genre was first formed there simply wasn't the mentality to get to max level ASAP and although some people crunched all the numbers to find the perfect builds, the majority just made and played what they wanted.

 

Over the years the idea that you have to level the most efficient way and must play only the absolute best builds has creeped into the majority of the player base. But there are still those of us who make what we want and when groups won't let us in for being "non-optimal" we just shrug and move on until we find another open minded group.

 

The interesting thing to me about the AC2 beta right now is there is a big group of people who are happy to be there, are exploring, playing whatever class interests them, and accepting any group they want. Then there is another big group of people who are already exluding classes from their groups who might decrease their XP per hour and are doing everything they can to max cap immediately. It just shows how prevelant that mindset is now.

I join any group and invite anyone in as long as they meet the entry level for the dungeon/quest and have fun with it. I think that is the key to enjoying any game, just play your way and don't worry about keeping pace with others or playing the way they want you to.

  MadnessRealm

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2690

Ignorance is Bliss.

1/11/13 6:08:33 PM#49
Originally posted by Iselin

Although its rather pointless to get involved in a chicken or egg argument about why MMOs evolved the way they have, I don't think your idea that shallow casual gameplay was created by the companies to attract and cater to the mainstream is historically acurate. I remember too well the complaints by the original MMORPG gamers about things such as too much wasted downtime forming groups and waiting for the AFK and competitive rare-spawn mob tagging, to blame more solo play opportunities and instancing of mobs in high-demand on the new crop of mainstream casuals: we wanted changes to be made and the industry solved our "problems" in their own ways. Were they solved the best way possible? Maybe not, but the point is that they were responding to what we, the original, early-adopting MMOers wanted.

Just quoting this part to clear something up. I'm not saying it's the developers that created the shallow gameplay we have today. I'm saying that it's not entirely the veteran players, but also the mainstream audience that have caused this shift.  To use an example, many features like PUGs in WoW didn't come solely at the demand of veterans, but also also at the demand of the now mainstream audience (which mostly exists because of WoW) since both veteran and 'mainstream players' (for lack of a better expression) are dealing with stricter schedules and realities.

 

If there is one thing companies would be to blame though is their inability to comprehend what made WoW popular and why they should stop aiming to make a similar game with an added gimmick. But that's a different topic.

------
Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3602

1/11/13 6:14:03 PM#50
Originally posted by Latronus

I didn't say it was a plot.  Blizzard saw an opportunity to make a game that the casual gamers could play and realized that there were more of them than the hard core players.  More players means more money.  It was a good business decision on their part.  A good business decision on their part equals the dumbed down, no life, no community games that we have to choose from today. 

It's not even that, Blizzard and WoW came along at the right time when instead of a very small niche audience, they could open their game to millions upon millions of new players.  Then they listened to those new potential players and made the game they wanted to play.  They took a phenomenal business opportunity and capitalized on it and made the #1 MMO in the world for nearly 10 years running.

Yeah, they're crying about it all the way to the bank.

I never said that Blizzard intended or planned that things would go this way.  They happened.  Blizzard started the trend and until a game comes out that breaks this mold and becomes successful, we will continue to have games developed that have no sole or sense of community.  The trend started with Blizzard so, it's their fault.

It wasn't a trend, it was a reaction to the majority of people who played the games and they are still in the majority.  Games don't just mindlessly copy WoW, they recognize that the biggest part of the MMO community still wants to play a game like WoW, therefore that's what they make.  When 95% of the gaming population wants a casual, solo-friendly, easy fantasy-based game, why is it so hard for people to understand why that's what most developers make?

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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Hope: None

  madazz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1299

1/11/13 6:49:34 PM#51
Originally posted by Cephus404
It wasn't a trend, it was a reaction to the majority of people who played the games and they are still in the majority.  Games don't just mindlessly copy WoW, they recognize that the biggest part of the MMO community still wants to play a game like WoW, therefore that's what they make.  When 95% of the gaming population wants a casual, solo-friendly, easy fantasy-based game, why is it so hard for people to understand why that's what most developers make?

You know, it has happened more times than I can count where an industry, or part of it, made a bad judgement call and went way overboard. 

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1658

1/11/13 7:04:09 PM#52
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

Do you remember ...

SNIP!

Most of those things have nothing to do with a game and everything to do with the gamer which may have well been your point.

 

When the MMO genre was first formed there simply wasn't the mentality to get to max level ASAP and although some people crunched all the numbers to find the perfect builds, the majority just made and played what they wanted.

 

Over the years the idea that you have to level the most efficient way and must play only the absolute best builds has creeped into the majority of the player base. But there are still those of us who make what we want and when groups won't let us in for being "non-optimal" we just shrug and move on until we find another open minded group.

 

The interesting thing to me about the AC2 beta right now is there is a big group of people who are happy to be there, are exploring, playing whatever class interests them, and accepting any group they want. Then there is another big group of people who are already exluding classes from their groups who might decrease their XP per hour and are doing everything they can to max cap immediately. It just shows how prevelant that mindset is now.

I join any group and invite anyone in as long as they meet the entry level for the dungeon/quest and have fun with it. I think that is the key to enjoying any game, just play your way and don't worry about keeping pace with others or playing the way they want you to.

 

This reminds me off the recent progression servers in EQ, as I'd only ever played a private server of original EQ I was interested in these new servers to see what all the fuss was about, so I jumped in with both feet and had a go and it was an interesting time for a while but as I played and chatted to people rumours of max level toons were already circulating only a few weeks after launch and that got me thinking how the heck are people doing this as I was progressing very slowly. It dawned on me that of course these guys were EQ vets had ready made perfectly set up groups, logged in every night and knew all the good grinding spots, basically well prepared min/maxers going for server firsts, they were making a mockery of the level times as they had eliminated all the obsticles that were there originally due to ignorance of how to play EQ in its early days.

This is at the core of the nostalgia people have lost that feeling of discovery because they've seen it all before multiple times and turning the clock back will not bring back that sense of discovery again. They need to exit the genre for a few years as I did with FPS games a few years ago and come back when they've changed enough.

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19156

1/11/13 7:25:34 PM#53
Originally posted by ObiClownobi
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Reklaw

nariusseldon: You probelby do not understand that those of us who want a more virtual world want to be entertained by that aswell it might not be the type of entertainment you seek. If I want fast entertainment I am lucky to enjoy allot of other genre of games. Never thought MMORPG would be put into the fast entertainment type, but long term entertaining virtual worlds to play in as we please at our own pace why rush if what's not done today can be done tomorrow/nextweek/month instead of being told what to do and rushing towards the same gameplay multiplayer games already offer.

How can i not understand when this "virtual world" thing is being flogged to death here every day? Don't confuse between understanding and agreeing. I just don't share that preference.

 

8432 posts, believe us, we know

And yet some sounds like they are surprised when they are confronted with preferences other than their own.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3250

Poacher killer.

1/11/13 7:36:26 PM#54
Originally posted by ObiClownobi
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Reklaw

nariusseldon: You probelby do not understand that those of us who want a more virtual world want to be entertained by that aswell it might not be the type of entertainment you seek. If I want fast entertainment I am lucky to enjoy allot of other genre of games. Never thought MMORPG would be put into the fast entertainment type, but long term entertaining virtual worlds to play in as we please at our own pace why rush if what's not done today can be done tomorrow/nextweek/month instead of being told what to do and rushing towards the same gameplay multiplayer games already offer.

How can i not understand when this "virtual world" thing is being flogged to death here every day? Don't confuse between understanding and agreeing. I just don't share that preference.

 

8432 posts, believe us, we know

Yeah, to be honest, I think I pretty much got the gist of things at this point. Repetition for emphasis, I suppose

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1658

1/11/13 8:05:35 PM#55
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ObiClownobi
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Reklaw

nariusseldon: You probelby do not understand that those of us who want a more virtual world want to be entertained by that aswell it might not be the type of entertainment you seek. If I want fast entertainment I am lucky to enjoy allot of other genre of games. Never thought MMORPG would be put into the fast entertainment type, but long term entertaining virtual worlds to play in as we please at our own pace why rush if what's not done today can be done tomorrow/nextweek/month instead of being told what to do and rushing towards the same gameplay multiplayer games already offer.

How can i not understand when this "virtual world" thing is being flogged to death here every day? Don't confuse between understanding and agreeing. I just don't share that preference.

 

8432 posts, believe us, we know

And yet some sounds like they are surprised when they are confronted with preferences other than their own.

 

I'm sensing you are missng the Obi's point here, amirite?

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5097

1/12/13 5:20:56 AM#56

I do remember when and it was great times. But I ask you this. Do you think in ten years time players will be saying:

 

Do you remember when we had guilds?

Do you remember when we had crafting?

Do you remember when we had factions?

Do you remember when we had grouping?

Do you remember when we had money you could earn in game and everthing was not paid for with real money?

Do you remember when you had vendors you could sell loot to?

Do you remember when we did not all just stand in a lobby?

Do you remember when we had raids?

 

This is not a process that has stopped. It carries on and I don't think defenders of the modern easymode MMO quite get that.

  Isawa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/20/08
Posts: 1066

1/12/13 5:31:57 AM#57
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
I remember when the OP was a SWTOR fanatic.

It really is based more around a community, and one that matters.  People saying that the old games were great back then but they aren't good now probably haven't played them.  SWG preNGE was a fantastic game.  The level of community interaction was amazing on many levels that is extremely rare to find today.  

I was thinking about SWG when reading through the list, but I still apply plenty of the list to my current game(s).

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7264

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

 
OP  1/14/13 1:53:42 PM#58
Originally posted by Scot

I do remember when and it was great times. But I ask you this. Do you think in ten years time players will be saying:

 

Do you remember when we had guilds?

Do you remember when we had crafting?

Do you remember when we had factions?

Do you remember when we had grouping?

Do you remember when we had money you could earn in game and everthing was not paid for with real money?

Do you remember when you had vendors you could sell loot to?

Do you remember when we did not all just stand in a lobby?

Do you remember when we had raids?

 

This is not a process that has stopped. It carries on and I don't think defenders of the modern easymode MMO quite get that.

Interesting point... and you might be right, in another 10 years.. we might be asking where all this has gone too.  Who knows.. maybe the MMO genre won't even be recognizable in the next 10 years.  

 

The point is, there are a lot of systems that we had in place then,  that increased the enjoyment and immersion and community aspect of - what is expected to be the pinnacle of multiplayer games.   Streamlining is one thing, to make the UI easier to read and to use, to make the graphics more enjoyable,  but you are right -- with the current age of "ease of use" it removes the necessity to really work for anything.  Least of all a community.

 

 

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  Silverchild

Novice Member

Joined: 5/31/07
Posts: 116

1/14/13 5:22:47 PM#59
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf


When the MMO genre was first formed there simply wasn't the mentality to get to max level ASAP and although some people crunched all the numbers to find the perfect builds, the majority just made and played what they wanted.

 

Over the years the idea that you have to level the most efficient way and must play only the absolute best builds has creeped into the majority of the player base. But there are still those of us who make what we want and when groups won't let us in for being "non-optimal" we just shrug and move on until we find another open minded group.

 

 

That was cool, but I dont think its a shift in gamers mentality that caused it, I think its a shift in game design.

 

I mean, you could be a complete noob in UO and experience "high level content" right away if you had friends to take you there. I remember hunting dragons with a group when I was a complete noob, shooting with my bow and doing almost no damage. But hey, I was still helping, and I was having fun. So of course I had absolutely no pressure to level as fast as I can.

Nowadays... can you even ENTER a high level dungeon as a low level character?

Games have elvolved and put in place so much artificial restriction on content ( and even gear checks now!) that it does encourage players to try to reach the level cap ASAP to experience it.  Its only normal.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5097

1/15/13 7:07:15 AM#60

The levelling attitude was imported from solo RPG’s to attract solo players, as was so much else. It made as much sense to what MMO’s where as adding treasure hunt game elements to a solo rpg, or puzzle solving elements to a racing game.

I do not think everything that came from solo game design was a disaster. But it was unplanned, not an attempt to find the best of both worlds. It was simply putting in as many solo game features to appeal to the bigger solo game player base as possible.

Many solo features did not fit well or were an antithesis to MMO gameplay. And so today we have a bastard MMO genre, ill conceived and showing it.

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