Originally posted by Hrimnir

Originally posted by Goatgod76

I went ahead and copied my response in another post here since it is somewhat relative to the disc....er, argument....

 

MMORPG's before 2004 did NOT force grouping. You could still solo, it was just harder, more time consuming, and less efficient to do so..unless you were also doing it for the chance at some lucky loot drop (Depending on the game. Which also depended on how loot tables were distributed in said game).

If you really think about it...games such as WoW and Rift for instance almost force you to solo. Now you CAN group in these games, I know this...but it's tough to get groups unless you join some rabid hadcore raiding Guild...because no one wants to group since you can get almost everything alone, or if you aren't in that clique. No one wants to take the time to talk to others, group up and maybe chat and become friends you put on your friends list and look for for that content that may need some grouping.

At least with more group oriented content MMORPG's people are more likely to group and discover community. AND they STILL have an option to solo at any moment they wish. The other way around, it is MUCH harder to get groups than to solo.

I am not saying there shouldn't be solely group oriented MMORPG's, nor am I saying they should be solely solo oriented ones. They should have the ability to do both. But if anything...they should have a bit more group oriented features to them because to me that provides more of a balance and the option to do one or the other more freely with little or at least less of a wait.

 

You are absolutely right.  Previous MMO's didnt force grouping, they just heavily incentivized it via XP and loot bonuses.

The problem is the ultra casuals whined and moaned and cried until they got their way, because in their eyes if someone can level even 1% faster than they can by grouping instead of soloing, then they view that as being FORCED to group.

In UO, people regularly grouped up to run dungeons, PVP and do other activities. What were the xp and loot bonuses to doing so in UO?

actually....

the "golden age of mmos" started with WoW. before, mmos have been niche games. not golden.

totaly agreed @frodo

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Hrimnir

Originally posted by Goatgod76

I went ahead and copied my response in another post here since it is somewhat relative to the disc....er, argument....

 

MMORPG's before 2004 did NOT force grouping. You could still solo, it was just harder, more time consuming, and less efficient to do so..unless you were also doing it for the chance at some lucky loot drop (Depending on the game. Which also depended on how loot tables were distributed in said game).

If you really think about it...games such as WoW and Rift for instance almost force you to solo. Now you CAN group in these games, I know this...but it's tough to get groups unless you join some rabid hadcore raiding Guild...because no one wants to group since you can get almost everything alone, or if you aren't in that clique. No one wants to take the time to talk to others, group up and maybe chat and become friends you put on your friends list and look for for that content that may need some grouping.

At least with more group oriented content MMORPG's people are more likely to group and discover community. AND they STILL have an option to solo at any moment they wish. The other way around, it is MUCH harder to get groups than to solo.

I am not saying there shouldn't be solely group oriented MMORPG's, nor am I saying they should be solely solo oriented ones. They should have the ability to do both. But if anything...they should have a bit more group oriented features to them because to me that provides more of a balance and the option to do one or the other more freely with little or at least less of a wait.

 

You are absolutely right.  Previous MMO's didnt force grouping, they just heavily incentivized it via XP and loot bonuses.

The problem is the ultra casuals whined and moaned and cried until they got their way, because in their eyes if someone can level even 1% faster than they can by grouping instead of soloing, then they view that as being FORCED to group.

In UO, people regularly grouped up to run dungeons, PVP and do other activities. What were the xp and loot bonuses to doing so in UO?

 

Nice straw man. I listed at least half a dozen MMO's which all incentivized grouping as far as xp gains and loot to some extent. Ii didnt play UO personally so i can't speak to it, but even if it were the one out of the list that didnt, it still doesnt invalidate the point.  So, why not go back to the drawing board and come back with something with a bit more substance.

Originally posted by Thane

actually....

 

the "golden age of mmos" started with WoW. before, mmos have been niche games. not golden.

totaly agreed @frodo

When people use the term "the golden age" in reference to something, they're referring to a time when things were well and good, and proper.  Its not a reference to popularity.

I don't know what you guys are talking about it being hard to get groups in todays games.

It is easer than ever to get a group, just a few minutes even for dps.  With lfg and lfd grouping is far easier than it has ever been and grouping is still heavily incentivized (if thats a word) with far better xp, far better loot and far better coin.

No you don't get a group for every single aspect of the game, you didn't do that for older games either.  Just like older games there are things specifically made for groups.  In modern games this is dungeons/flashpoints/heroics and raids.

But it is way easier to get a group than it was in old games.

And the golden age hasn't actually come yet.  The first generation is rarely the best, this genre is no exception.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I don't know what you guys are talking about it being hard to get groups in todays games.

It is easer than ever to get a group, just a few minutes even for dps.  With lfg and lfd grouping is far easier than it has ever been and grouping is still heavily incentivized (if thats a word) with far better xp, far better loot and far better coin.

No you don't get a group for every single aspect of the game, you didn't do that for older games either.  Just like older games there are things specifically made for groups.  In modern games this is dungeons/flashpoints/heroics and raids.

But it is way easier to get a group than it was in old games.

And the golden age hasn't actually come yet.  The first generation is rarely the best, this genre is no exception.

Another difference...in older MMORPG's (Pre-WoW) compared to newer ones and it's drove of players...if a group failed...guess what, they almost always went back in until they got it, or just ran out of time to try it again and made plans to meet the next day to try it again. And if a player made a mistake, others would give them advice on what they did wrong and how to correct it and HELP them get better. Sure, once in awhile there were jerks, but by no means the amount there are today.

Anytime I got a group in a more recent MMO...one of a couple different scenarios happened if the group failed....

1) 1 or more people would instantly leave the group. At least 1 blurting out insults to the rest about how they suck and are noobs.

2) Whoever made the mistake was instantly dropped for another person.

If the group succeeded, people would instantly drop and go on their way. Not even considering the others left there and if they could get out safely or not.

A lot of the problem is patience....seems no one has them anymore. And guess what...MMORPG's are about patience. Again, it is what seperates them as a different genre from console gaming, where everything is quick fun. IDK why so many can't get that through their heads other than they probably started with console games and think that is how they all should be, and that MMORPG's prior to WoW were seriously flawed. Or, they are older with jobs, kids, and other responsibilites and want them fast and to cater t their life style now. I have all those things...but I make time and do my progress at my pace. If friends out level me, oh well, I find new ones and enjoy time with them, and still chat with my older ones until i catch up and can group with them again. If you can't make time for MMORPG's or take them at a pace you can allow for, I think your probably in the wrong gaming genre IMO.

Sure, they weren't perfect. They were amongst the first after all, but they held values that are almost extinct in today's supposed MMORPG's. Open seamless worlds (EQ had zones, but they were big and open), crafting with substance and worth, quests with interesting stories and long chains that stretched between different areas, COMMUNITY, variation as far as character looks, armor, etc, depth, and content out the ying yang.

Most modern MMORPG's have little to none of this....yet, they are better? IDK about a lot of you...but I don't find getting to level cap in a month or less, having in-game GPS to every quest (Most of which are collection quests 10 feet from the quest giver) , and looking like almost every other player of my class as better.

MMORPG's are not meant to be raced through. It's about the journey, NOT the destination.

Old mmo's are inferior in every way to new mmo's. The reason people call it "the golden age of mmo's" is because the mmo was new to people back then. Your sense of awe and wonderment simply don't reoccur after your first couple mmos. At least not as strongly. This leads people to believe its the mmos fault..they blame the mechanics...the presentation...the story..the community..they blame other mmos for make simple tasks more convienient. They blame everything except the actual culprit..their own feelings.

I use to know some guys that where E-heads? I dunno what you would call people who do ecstasy so E-heads will do for now...but they never stopped going on about how awesome the first couple times was...they spent a couple years chasing that old feeling...taking all sorts of E hoping desperately to once again feel the way they did the first couple times. They would always blame the drug itself, claiming it wasn't potent enough or some such garbage. It never happened and they eventually wised up and stopped doing drugs. It kinda reminds me of the way these people clamoring for the "golden age" act. I will eat my hat if an mmo is released that ever satisfies them.

What do I miss in old MMO's? The feeling I got playing an mmo for the first time..thats it. Everything else is just people scapegoating for the reasons I mentioned!

Originally posted by Hrimnir

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Hrimnir

You are absolutely right.  Previous MMO's didnt force grouping, they just heavily incentivized it via XP and loot bonuses.

The problem is the ultra casuals whined and moaned and cried until they got their way, because in their eyes if someone can level even 1% faster than they can by grouping instead of soloing, then they view that as being FORCED to group.

In UO, people regularly grouped up to run dungeons, PVP and do other activities. What were the xp and loot bonuses to doing so in UO?

 

Nice straw man. I listed at least half a dozen MMO's which all incentivized grouping as far as xp gains and loot to some extent. Ii didnt play UO personally so i can't speak to it, but even if it were the one out of the list that didnt, it still doesnt invalidate the point.  So, why not go back to the drawing board and come back with something with a bit more substance.

I didn't see the list you had, just this post, which is why I asked. Thank you for reminding me why I put you on block a couple months ago. I shall return you to that state.

The community;

People that actually enjoyed the game because they enjoyed gaming and social interaction. Now we have a bunch of kids that just want to get the 'new gears' and step on everyone they can in the mean time to get it. 

what OP said + the need to travel.

Every game today has a lfg tool and it teleports you to the dungeon or raid.  Everything today is way too fast.  Maybe I'm the only one that has enough time to run for 30 minutes to get somewhere to fight for an hour+.  That's the only time I play MMOs anyways, when I got over an hour to burn in it.  If I'm expecting something to come up where I can only play for 30 min, I don't even bother to log in.

This really helps immersion imho.  Which I really liked about old MMOs.  I had the time back then to sit down and play for 8 hours, and "snap out of it" and notice it's 1am and I had school in 6 hours lol.  Ahh the good ol' days.

Originally posted by nukempro

Old mmo's are inferior in every way to new mmo's.

For people who like the new MMOs.

I'm still playing one of the last golden age mmo's.   Come join us!

EQ Mac ,   stuck in 2002.    Better than wow or any of the new games. gw2 was fun for 2 months  , but content is burned through so fast in an action based mmo with no random loot off random rare mobs/ .

EQ MAC al'kabor!  "go to rerolled.org and find the way to play it on a PC." 

I have played almost EVERY mmorpg   besides a few of the free ones that were click to move"bleh" .    Here are The best mmo's in order.

1.  Everquest Classic 1999-2001 .

2. Eqoa   ps2   "shutdown last year"

3. Wow Vanilla   "first 8months"

4.  GW 2    " awesome action / combat" 

5.  Nothing .   maybe lotro until moria expansion.

That is not an Opinion :P  That is FACT.

Originally posted by bopice12

I'm still playing one of the last golden age mmo's.   Come join us!

 

EQ Mac ,   stuck in 2002.    Better than wow or any of the new games. gw2 was fun for 2 months  , but content is burned through so fast in an action based mmo with no random loot off random rare mobs/ .

 

EQ MAC al'kabor!  "go to rerolled.org and find the way to play it on a PC." 

 

I have played almost EVERY mmorpg   besides a few of the free ones that were click to move"bleh" .    Here are The best mmo's in order.

1.  Everquest Classic 1999-2001 .

2. Eqoa   ps2   "shutdown last year"

3. Wow Vanilla   "first 8months"

4.  GW 2    " awesome action / combat" 

5.  Nothing .   maybe lotro until moria expansion.

 

That is not an Opinion :P  That is FACT.

Or at the very least, it is in fact your opinion.....or is it? DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN!

Anyways the three MMOS that kept me playing for awhile were EQ, EQ2, and WoW.

EverQuest I never really achived much of anything. I think I got to level 54, got some nice gear, but thats about it. Fun game though, and dungeons in a sense were interesting because bit by bit you got to see more of it when you got to different camps.(even if there are plus sides to camping, such as chatting with people, it could be booooooooooooring too).

EverQuest 2.....I liked collecting the shinys and the game was relativly entertaining,making food and drink and having duels with fishing poles was entertaining for some reason as well.

WoW, I liked the Warcraft lore, and its world was pretty fun. Maxed out a couple of chatacters with some good raid gear and kept coming back until MoP(nothing against that xpac, just finally done with the game) Part of the reason I quit was I got tired of the lore, which in my opinion, was KEK Horde win, Horde win again, Alliance fail, Horde win, Horde blow up base and it phases in, Alliance blow up mine, mine still there. Again, my opinion. Gameplay....eh pretty standard, it works, just would like something more to it as well, like more than gear grinding or repeatedly running the same dungeon over and over. Though the other two mmos I listed had similar issues.

I rather doubt that the "golden age" of mmos is over, considerng the "Golden age" was the beginning of visual mmos.(MUDs being much older). Eventually, someone will do something new, or change something old enough to garner interest, which a few short years from it being released will be considered generic and there will be a new <insert game name here> clone threads that replace WoW clone threads.

Originally posted by bopice12

I'm still playing one of the last golden age mmo's.   Come join us!

 

EQ Mac ,   stuck in 2002.    Better than wow or any of the new games. gw2 was fun for 2 months  , but content is burned through so fast in an action based mmo with no random loot off random rare mobs/ .

 

EQ MAC al'kabor!  "go to rerolled.org and find the way to play it on a PC." 

 

I have played almost EVERY mmorpg   besides a few of the free ones that were click to move"bleh" .    Here are The best mmo's in order.

1.  Everquest Classic 1999-2001 .

2. Eqoa   ps2   "shutdown last year"

3. Wow Vanilla   "first 8months"

4.  GW 2    " awesome action / combat" 

5.  Nothing .   maybe lotro until moria expansion.

 

That is not an Opinion :P  That is FACT.

I know it was a joke, but far from a fact. The real fact is out of all of the early MMOs I played, the only one I didn't enjoy that much was...... EQ.

For me it is:

1. Original UO - none of the karma system, anything goes world. Was a blast, but they patched out all that was fun.

2. A very close second and it moves to first the moment the karma system was added to UO - AC. When I picked up that game I just couldn't stop playing it. I've since gone back to it.

3. DAoC - loved the PvP aspects of the game.

I went back to UO once even though I knew all of the changes that were in it and I played for a couple of days. That was it though.

Never tried going back to DAoC. I remember the UI being pretty brutal even when it was new and I don't think they've changed it. It is probably too grindy for my current tastes.

AC though was nice, especially with the changes over the last few years. And now that I get to try AC2, a game I never originally played, it is even better.

Your post and mine highlight the big difference between the two big groups of MMO players, theme park players and sandbox players. Yours is a theme park golden list and I consider mine to be a sandbox golden list. No matter which camp you prefer, there are still golden age MMOs running.

Golden Age to me was UO after the Trammel / Felucca split.

So many good PvE memories from Trammel and so many good PvP memories from Felucca.

*sigh*

Why has no game really picked up on this? You either get full loot hardcore PvP and the PvE sucks or you get Grind Heavy Hardcore Raiding Only Carrot+Stick PvE and the PvP sucks.

Really don't think it's too much to ask for good PvE AND good PvP in the same game, on the same character - but without eliminating the CHOICE to which you want to participate in at any given time.

Not rocket science people.

Originally posted by exwin
I miss not being nickel and dimed to death. Micro transactions on a sub game? Really? Free to play, it's cool, I understand you need to make money to keep game alive, but cash shops for games you pay for, no way.

Hrm I don't recall being nickle and dimed in any recent MMOs. Sure GW2 had stuff you could pay money for, or you could just convert ingame currency for other ingame currency. I also remeber paying $9.99 I beileve it was monthly for EverQuest, and that changing to all MMOs to the current $15. Other then that nothing much has changed, expansions cost money, and monthly fee obviously costs money. Sure WoW has its mounts you can buy, but you're under no obligation to get it nor does it put you in any real disadvantage. Just my opinion though.

Originally posted by Kendane

Originally posted by exwin
I miss not being nickel and dimed to death. Micro transactions on a sub game? Really? Free to play, it's cool, I understand you need to make money to keep game alive, but cash shops for games you pay for, no way.

Hrm I don't recall being nickle and dimed in any recent MMOs. Sure GW2 had stuff you could pay money for, or you could just convert ingame currency for other ingame currency. I also remeber paying $9.99 I beileve it was monthly for EverQuest, and that changing to all MMOs to the current $15. Other then that nothing much has changed, expansions cost money, and monthly fee obviously costs money. Sure WoW has its mounts you can buy, but you're under no obligation to get it nor does it put you in any real disadvantage. Just my opinion though.

TSW, STO (referring to prior FTP), WarZ all have/had hybrid Premium/Cash shop models. I'm sure there are many more, those just the ones I've personally played.