For some of the questions, the answer is:  nope, I've never seen a game that was like that.

For the rest, the answer is:  it still is like that, at least the way I play.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

Do you remember ...

When you would log in to an MMO just to be in a different world? Yup do that ever single day I play an MMO

 

When you would hang out in Taverns/Cantinas just to socialize?  Nope, I never socialize it takes time away from doing things I find fun.  I enjoy all things related to combat and exploration and the social activities should promote those endeavors and if not I dont play

 

When you would create a character build based on what you wanted rather then what was "viable"?

Viable to me is something that is "the best" or min/max'ed to give the greatest DPS for its investment.  Viable to me is fun and anything less reeks of ignorance.

 

When a game would launch and would not be 100% perfect and that would be OKAY? Umm NO!  I fondly remember that the majority of games who failed is because the game has issues.  Do you not remember even a few short years how the talk of the MMO universe was to release a complete and bug free game?  Because I do, games like AoC and WAR were completely filled with bugs.

 

When you would group up with players for the fun of completing content instead of the rewards? Nope ive never done this, If im not getting rewarded then whats the point.  Doing things on other peoples terms is not fun for me.

 

When you would become friends with those you grouped with instead of dropping them when the quest is over? I still do this, my friends list is fairly full in GW2 with good players ive ran dungeons with.

 

When getting to max level was the least of your concerns? about the only item on this list I agree with

 

When playing that MMO was more of an experience then "just another game"? Still is, the setting or the game doesnt change this.  If you cant get lost in the lore, the story, the game and the world then its you not me.

 

When you could leave a game amicably instead of it being a "failure" or that you "regret buying it"?  Nope ever game I have ever left was becasue of paradigm shifts from the developers I didnt agree with (WoW) or the game was a bridge untill my new game came out (TSW).

 

When you would play a game regardless of its payment model because you enjoyed it?  Still do so but I prefer F2P

 

When the MMO Experience was actually FUN? Still is

 

What happened to those times? The're still here, its not my fault you cant find fun in things.

Rose tinted goggles are a nasty thing.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

Do you remember ...

When you would log in to an MMO just to be in a different world?

I can honestly say, I never did that.  Then again, I have never wanted to "escape" from real life, I consider people who want to do that to have serious problems.

 When you would hang out in Taverns/Cantinas just to socialize?

While there have been times I've done that, mostly when I'm busy chatting with friends and need a place to park my character, I don't use MMOs to socialize in general, I have plenty of friends in RL and I don't need to pretend online.

 When you would create a character build based on what you wanted rather then what was "viable"?

I still do.

 When a game would launch and would not be 100% perfect and that would be OKAY?

There's a difference between not being 100% perfect and being broken.  Far too many games launch today that are simply unfinished and are virtually unplayable.  That is not okay.

 When you would group up with players for the fun of completing content instead of the rewards?

I'd still do that today if anyone else played that way.

 When you would become friends with those you grouped with instead of dropping them when the quest is over?

It depends on the people.  If they are decent people I had fun talking to, I'd put them on my watch list and talk to them again.  If not, why would I want to be their "friend"?

 When getting to max level was the least of your concerns?

It still isn't.

 When playing that MMO was more of an experience then "just another game"?

No, it's not and never has been.  An MMO is just one genre of game, it's played to have fun.  If I play an FPS, it's just another game, if I play a platformer, it's just another  game, why should an MMO be anything different?

 When you could leave a game amicably instead of it being a "failure" or that you "regret buying it"?

I leave all games amicably when I stop having fun playing them.  How long it takes getting to that point varies by game.

 When you would play a game regardless of its payment model because you enjoyed it?

That's still the case.  All I want is to have fun.  I really don't care what it costs.

 When the MMO Experience was actually FUN?

I have no clue what "the MMO Experience" is, it's just a game and, like any game, has to be fun in order for me to take part.

 What happened to those times?

They're still around, adjusted for the modern reality.  Maybe your expectations are out of line?

Originally posted by Iselin

MMORPGs are now played by the mainstream masses who routinely communicate electronically as briefly as possible. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with Sandboxes nor solo play nor any of the other tired old cliched mmorpg.com forum reasons. It's just 2013. You're looking for sophisticated game-design reasons for your relative lack of enjoyment when all that has happened is that games, gamers and society have just evolved rather quickly.

Oh, but it has to do with sandbox/themepark and group/solo play. It has everything to do with it. How else do you think the genre became mainstream? Did it magically happen over night? No. It happened by making features and mechanics increasingly more accessible to a larger audience. Which is not to say that it's necessarily a bad thing, but it's costed us a lot of things those of us who played older MMORPGs enjoy.

MMOs in the past were group-oriented. MMOs today are solo-centric. We had incentive to group in the past, it was more pleasant, and we could achieve a lot more as well. Today, grouping is less efficient than solo play. The need to interact with other players is not present,players are self-sufficient, best gear is through monster loot rather than crafted, etc. Heck, grouping is less rewarding than solo-play because you'll have less gold and items at the end of the run. Players only care about their own advancement and couldn't care less about others.

I'm not looking for a "sophisticated game-design reason for my relative lack of enjoyment". Games have changed their design completely, that's the reality. If you like this design, good for you. I prefer the old one and I find that it's a shame so few MMOs try to bring it back. 

Originally posted by MadnessRealm

Originally posted by Iselin

MMORPGs are now played by the mainstream masses who routinely communicate electronically as briefly as possible. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with Sandboxes nor solo play nor any of the other tired old cliched mmorpg.com forum reasons. It's just 2013. You're looking for sophisticated game-design reasons for your relative lack of enjoyment when all that has happened is that games, gamers and society have just evolved rather quickly.

Oh, but it has to do with sandbox/themepark and group/solo play. It has everything to do with it. How else do you think the genre became mainstream? Did it magically happen over night? No. It happened by making features and mechanics increasingly more accessible to a larger audience. Which is not to say that it's necessarily a bad thing, but it's costed us a lot of things those of us who played older MMORPGs enjoy.

 

MMOs in the past were group-oriented. MMOs today are solo-centric. We had incentive to group in the past, it was more pleasant, and we could achieve a lot more as well. Today, grouping is less efficient than solo play. The need to interact with other players is not present,players are self-sufficient, best gear is through monster loot rather than crafted, etc. Heck, grouping is less rewarding than solo-play because you'll have less gold and items at the end of the run. Players only care about their own advancement and couldn't care less about others.

 

I'm not looking for a "sophisticated game-design reason for my relative lack of enjoyment". Games have changed their design completely, that's the reality. If you like this design, good for you. I prefer the old one and I find that it's a shame so few MMOs try to bring it back. 

A couple things, MMO's back then didn't give "incentive" to group. They required that you group. MMO's these days give you incentive...things like faster exp gain, safer..don't have to worry about dying.(as much) The option to go to areas with "elite" mobs or something similar. That would be incentive.

I also disagree with your assesment of newer MMO's being "solo-centric"...you have the option to solo while lvling...Dungeons/pvp/raids all still require groups. The genre became mainstream because a popular franchise at the time (warcraft) was made into an mmo that didn't rigidly enforce the need for a full group with tank and healer to kill rats. You could actually play at your own pace. Furthermore the total time it took to reach cap wasn't anywhere near as long. The NEED to group with others is still there...just not during lvling...instead you have the OPTION to group. And don't spread lies..in now way shape or form is lvling in a group inferior to lvling solo.

There where other reasons mmos went mainstream..WOW had a lvl of polish not seen in mmo's before it....the whole idea that the community back then was so great is false anyway..I seem to remember plenty of asshats..its just there was less people overall...so less asshats by default!

Originally posted by nukempro

There where other reasons mmos went mainstream..WOW had a lvl of polish not seen in mmo's before it....the whole idea that the community back then was so great is false anyway..I seem to remember plenty of asshats..its just there was less people overall...so less asshats by default!

And it always mythifies me why people obsessed about "community" so much. It all boils down to whether i have a few friends and strangers to play with. Who cares if there are millions? I won't have time for 99.999% of them anyway.

And for that, i found enough good fun people to play with (RL familes/friend or strangers) in all online games i have played (not just MMOs).

Originally posted by nukempro

Originally posted by MadnessRealm

Originally posted by Iselin

MMORPGs are now played by the mainstream masses who routinely communicate electronically as briefly as possible. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with Sandboxes nor solo play nor any of the other tired old cliched mmorpg.com forum reasons. It's just 2013. You're looking for sophisticated game-design reasons for your relative lack of enjoyment when all that has happened is that games, gamers and society have just evolved rather quickly.

Oh, but it has to do with sandbox/themepark and group/solo play. It has everything to do with it. How else do you think the genre became mainstream? Did it magically happen over night? No. It happened by making features and mechanics increasingly more accessible to a larger audience. Which is not to say that it's necessarily a bad thing, but it's costed us a lot of things those of us who played older MMORPGs enjoy.

 

MMOs in the past were group-oriented. MMOs today are solo-centric. We had incentive to group in the past, it was more pleasant, and we could achieve a lot more as well. Today, grouping is less efficient than solo play. The need to interact with other players is not present,players are self-sufficient, best gear is through monster loot rather than crafted, etc. Heck, grouping is less rewarding than solo-play because you'll have less gold and items at the end of the run. Players only care about their own advancement and couldn't care less about others.

 

I'm not looking for a "sophisticated game-design reason for my relative lack of enjoyment". Games have changed their design completely, that's the reality. If you like this design, good for you. I prefer the old one and I find that it's a shame so few MMOs try to bring it back. 

A couple things, MMO's back then didn't give "incentive" to group. They required that you group. MMO's these days give you incentive...things like faster exp gain, safer..don't have to worry about dying.(as much) The option to go to areas with "elite" mobs or something similar. That would be incentive.

 

I also disagree with your assesment of newer MMO's being "solo-centric"...you have the option to solo while lvling...Dungeons/pvp/raids all still require groups. The genre became mainstream because a popular franchise at the time (warcraft) was made into an mmo that didn't rigidly enforce the need for a full group with tank and healer to kill rats. You could actually play at your own pace. Furthermore the total time it took to reach cap wasn't anywhere near as long. The NEED to group with others is still there...just not during lvling...instead you have the OPTION to group. And don't spread lies..in now way shape or form is lvling in a group inferior to lvling solo.

I said incentive because it depends on the MMO. UO and SWG allowed for a bit more solo-play (but still had features to maintain an active community) whereas other old MMOs like EQ and FFXI were closer to force-grouping. I was just speaking in general terms. The 'incentive' given by the current MMORPGs to group is far too weak to outweight the cons (less loot and gold, not everyone is on the same quests, etc). Solo players don't really have any issue surviving the normal mobs encounter either (or elite for that matter).

Current MMORPGs are solo-centric. The mentality of these MMOs is too focused on 'You' rather than your group. The addition of PUGs simply pushed that further by turning other players into "tools" provided by the game to further advance your character until you finally run out of content. There is no need to socialize with your "group" when it will dissolve as soon as the raid is over. You could play with NPCs and you'd have the same result.  That's why they are solo-centric. Your advancement is the only thing that matters, the rest is irrelevant.

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
I remember when the OP was a SWTOR fanatic.

Was never a fanatic about anything, people thought the game would be horrible,  I still think its a good game and lasted me longer then GW2 did simply finishing the stories,  but again, both GW2 and SWTOR are great GAMES, but they aren't great MMOs.

It really is based more around a community, and one that matters.  People saying that the old games were great back then but they aren't good now probably haven't played them.  SWG preNGE was a fantastic game.  The level of community interaction was amazing on many levels that is extremely rare to find today.  

It wasn't about sandbox elements specifically, it was about variety.  If you really want to match up other MMOs like SWTOR and GW2 and TSW and WAR and TERA, what you will notice is that they all truly lack variety.

But its true, its the players who dictate the kind of variety they want.  It will likely be another few years before we see any kind of change in that avenue.

Originally posted by MadnessRealm

Originally posted by Iselin

MMORPGs are now played by the mainstream masses who routinely communicate electronically as briefly as possible. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with Sandboxes nor solo play nor any of the other tired old cliched mmorpg.com forum reasons. It's just 2013. You're looking for sophisticated game-design reasons for your relative lack of enjoyment when all that has happened is that games, gamers and society have just evolved rather quickly.

Oh, but it has to do with sandbox/themepark and group/solo play. It has everything to do with it. How else do you think the genre became mainstream? Did it magically happen over night? No. It happened by making features and mechanics increasingly more accessible to a larger audience. Which is not to say that it's necessarily a bad thing, but it's costed us a lot of things those of us who played older MMORPGs enjoy.

 

MMOs in the past were group-oriented. MMOs today are solo-centric. We had incentive to group in the past, it was more pleasant, and we could achieve a lot more as well. Today, grouping is less efficient than solo play. The need to interact with other players is not present,players are self-sufficient, best gear is through monster loot rather than crafted, etc. Heck, grouping is less rewarding than solo-play because you'll have less gold and items at the end of the run. Players only care about their own advancement and couldn't care less about others.

 

I'm not looking for a "sophisticated game-design reason for my relative lack of enjoyment". Games have changed their design completely, that's the reality. If you like this design, good for you. I prefer the old one and I find that it's a shame so few MMOs try to bring it back. 

If I hadn't been there, your arguments would almost make sense, but I was there and lived the evolution. I have played one or more MMOs constantly since I started with Asheron's Call in 1999. I can't think of a single 2013, MMO convenience feature that wasn't instigated by us because we disliked or got tired of what it replaced.

I know that it's more popular to say that the companies, especially the large ones that produce AAA titles, are motivated by greed and everything they do comes from that. There is maybe something to that, but a lot of the things that now appeal to the masses weren't invented to attract more people--that happened independently and had everything to do with video games in general and MMOs specifically just becoming a mainstream form of entertainment.

It was we, the veteran MMOers who wanted an end to corpse runs and loss of inventory, we wanted something better than the honor system for trades, we wanted faster travel to the quest area or dungeon, we didn't want to waste hours trying to form a group to do a 30 minute quest. We demanded, auction houses, group finders, instant travel, mounts and mild death penalties.... and we wanted something fun to do when we only could log-in for 30 minutes.

Now we're having second thoughts and wondering if maybe we went too far and some of the convenience features are ruinning the experience. But I don't take as gospel that a nostalgic return to the old ways is the way to go. And I bet you that every old MMO vet has at least one of those convenience features that they would want to keep regardless of how harsh they want their ideal sandbox to be... more than likely something related to inventory management.

What I find silly and frustrating are all the suggestions here devoid of any creativity that just want some old features brought back because the old ways were better. They weren't and we got rid of a lot of the old things for good reasons.

I get a lot more excited and see more promise in new ideas not rehashing the same old crap even if it's very old crap that hasn't been done in the last 10 years. It's still old shit to me.

You mention soloing and grouping. The solution to the problem of modern grouping isn't to be found in old ways of doing it--that would just lead to repeating the same old problems. What's needed is something new like on-the-fly variable difficulty to accomodate groups of different sizes in an inclusive and fluid way. Something like what GW2 has attempted with dynamic events but done right as a permanent replacement for groups and raids, not just a 3rd option.

MMOs in 2013 are anything but perfect, but as a whole, they're a hell of an improvement over what existed 20 years ago. I know that's not what the cool kids like saying here but there it is. Improvements are to be found by moving forward not just resurrecting old dead crap.

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Originally posted by Iselin
...since I started with Asheron's Call in 1999...

---

Your first MMO was a very solo friendly MMO. So you like solo friendly games. No big mystery there. That's all you really had to say. The OP suggests he likes apples and you, et. al., are here arguing that oranges are better.

Originally posted by Arclan

 

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Originally posted by Iselin
...since I started with Asheron's Call in 1999...

---

 

Your first MMO was a very solo friendly MMO. So you like solo friendly games. No big mystery there. That's all you really had to say. The OP suggests he likes apples and you, et. al., are here arguing that oranges are better.

 Hmm. Asheron's Call solo friendly? You must have been a Life Mage draining mobs through walls

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

Do you remember ...

When you would log in to an MMO just to be in a different world?

 

When you would hang out in Taverns/Cantinas just to socialize?

 

When you would create a character build based on what you wanted rather then what was "viable"?

 

When a game would launch and would not be 100% perfect and that would be OKAY?

 

When you would group up with players for the fun of completing content instead of the rewards?

 

When you would become friends with those you grouped with instead of dropping them when the quest is over?

 

When getting to max level was the least of your concerns?

 

When playing that MMO was more of an experience then "just another game"?

 

When you could leave a game amicably instead of it being a "failure" or that you "regret buying it"?

 

When you would play a game regardless of its payment model because you enjoyed it?

 

When the MMO Experience was actually FUN?

 

What happened to those times?

WoW happened.  A new generation of players that feel they are entitled to win just because they logged in happened.  Suits started making development decisions happened.  

Originally posted by Arclan

 

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Originally posted by maskedweasel
 

 

...When you would become friends with those you grouped with instead of dropping them when the quest is over...

---

 

This is the primary reason why MMOs today quickly tank.

No time to chat. Must rush to the next quest. They are the bulk of xp and rewards. Quest Hubs killed MMOs. Vanguard's slow death is not because of framerate, nor system specs, nor occasional crashes, nor unfinished content. Friendship bonds did not form because players rushed from quest to quest.

That isn't why my guild and I quit playing.  We didn't know each other when the game started, became friends and formed a guild.  We stuck around for about 8 months or so with hopes that SOE would fix the issues but they took too long and we eventually left because of the bugs. 

But I will say that what you say is true.  Group finders, especially cross server group finders destroyed server community.  Oh wait, yet another reason why WoW is responsible for destroying the genre.  WoW, the most successful MMO made has done more to dumb down the genre and playerbase than anything else.  Not trolling, just my honest option, if I offended anyone... I don't care.

Originally posted by Latronus

But I will say that what you say is true.  Group finders, especially cross server group finders destroyed server community.  Oh wait, yet another reason why WoW is responsible for destroying the genre.

Do you figure blizzard came up with that idea all by themselves or did the community demand it? I certainly remember which of those it was. People get pissed when it takes them 4 hours to get a group together for a 20 minute run...that's how they came into being.

It really wasn't an evil plot to dumb-down the genre lol.

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by Latronus

But I will say that what you say is true.  Group finders, especially cross server group finders destroyed server community.  Oh wait, yet another reason why WoW is responsible for destroying the genre.

Do you figure blizzard came up with that idea all by themselves or did the community demand it? I certainly remember which of those it was. People get pissed when it takes them 4 hours to get a group together for a 20 minute run...that's how they came into being.

It really wasn't an evil plot to dumb-down the genre lol.

They really need to put a "LIKE" system on this forum, it would stop a bunch of posts that just say "yeah, I agree!"

But yeah, I agree!

Originally posted by birdycephon

Guess what though, its not that the times have changes, its the people who changed.

If you go back and replay all those 'awesome' games, you'll  see that there is hardly anything awesome about them besides your memories.

The only reason they seemed awsome back in the day, was because thay were the best there was at the time.

Every one in gaming has been spoiled in one way or another. The go back to that same old game simply does not make a valid argument.

Times has certainly changed, obviously so do gamers but not all. In my gamers expectations I have not changed much, I still expect a MMORPG to deliver me a more virtual game world then the online combat games we get delivered. And while occasionally I enjoy some of today's MMORPG, they still are far to limited and bring forth a rush mentality among many players I encounter in those games.

Sure allot of things have been made better/finetuned, but also allot of things are missing from most common A-Tittle MMORPG's

I will admit that Star Wars Galaxies has spoiled me allot and is the main reason why most of today's MMO's feel so incredible limited and lifeless. While meridian59 was my first MMORPG even though I was completely unknown with the term MMORPG up untill EQ, yet also dabbeled in UO. But SWG made me fall in "gamerslove" with this genre due to the freedom the game provided.

I already play and enjoy limited games in other genre's. MMORPG was the game genre that truly gone beyond what I already played. Yet most of today's MMO's deliver the same type of gameplay singleplayer or multiplayer games offer..

nariusseldon: You probelby do not understand that those of us who want a more virtual world want to be entertained by that aswell it might not be the type of entertainment you seek. If I want fast entertainment I am lucky to enjoy allot of other genre of games. Never thought MMORPG would be put into the fast entertainment type, but long term entertaining virtual worlds to play in as we please at our own pace why rush if what's not done today can be done tomorrow/nextweek/month instead of being told what to do and rushing towards the same gameplay multiplayer games already offer.

Some people consider MMORPG to be more then "just a game" because of what we had and perhaps like me already enjoying plenty of other genre games.

OP: So I understand exactly what it is you're saying.

Originally posted by dumpcat
Yes OP I remember SWG...

I think it was more then just SWG and UO,  even games like CoH and FE had good things going for them in terms of community, socializing, and in some cases grouping.