Trending Games | Pirate101 | ArcheAge | Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn | Wasteland 2

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,860,054 Users Online:0
Games:742  Posts:6,245,372
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

Neverwinter

Neverwinter 

General Discussion  » Taking concerns about usual game mechanics

2 Pages 1 2 » Search
22 posts found
  Slechtvalk

Novice Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 33

 
OP  1/10/13 2:37:23 AM#1

Good Morning,

 

at first, i played 1st and 2nd edition pnp. I am not firm with 4th edition. I was thinking about some mechanics, and i want to know if they would be possible with the rules of 4th edition.

 

Its not that i need them, i am taking concerns about all that kiddies and ppl. who shit about rules and lore comform games.

 

We know 4 classes by video now. In my eyes (yes correct me if i am wrong) a tank class and 3 damagedealer. I am not sure if i understood all right. The old editions know healers, but tanking, well i had session where my old mage took aggro on a dragon, well oops and my own fault.

so is this game designed as trinity, or are all classes almost good damagedealer, with the plus for tanks having aggro management and clerics some heals?

the second with this, if not, if its an old designed trinity, i can suddenly hear the normal folks cry "we want dual class" not in the way it was meant in former 2nd edition. the wow, rift, and other style, beeing able to change between a dd / healer / tanking role.

I am taking concern about this, because in my eyes this would give us the old problem as in any other game, almost no one wants to tank, and playing a healer to top level means beeing less fast. so this would be good for the player.

 

its not that I need that, but i fear the cries of the mass, and a producer who changes the mechanic to somewhat which could be just a normal mmo, and not D&D? i mean, this game is special to me, because its D&D. on the other side, I wouldnt like it, when its a normal mmo with just a "D&D label" in its loading screen.

 

so, what will it be, taking the rules and mechanics of 4th edition pen & paper, or a more weakened ruleset?

 

What you think about that, hopefully you understood my thought, english is not my mothertongue, sorry! but learning never ends.

  dzoni87

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/08
Posts: 553

1/10/13 8:20:57 AM#2

Hello,

  First thing to clarify if you havent read or played 4ed ruleset yet: combat is made around more simple mechanics called "Powers". Now literally, each and every class have them and they are separated into three categories: at-will, encounter and daily powers. To many older DnD players, this mechanic was very similar to MMORPG combat mechanics, moreso than PnP (which recieved a widely negative backlash and, according to some, was worst change implemented in one edition of DnD ever). To summarize it: combat in 4ed is more simplified and made more 'hack and slash'.

  Now my point is: i can see it implemented very well in Neverwinter. However, combat in NW is somewhat different than in standard MMOs. It is not a standard button masher, you need to aim to hit someone (hope this will actually work, unlike in TERA) you need to watch out for 'flanking' positions etc. But, it can work pretty good for 4ed's combat and for what it is.

  And as for classes they are releasing: they are made out of pre-set builds from 4ed (control wizard, trickster rogue etc. to name a few). So far, the class that is most close to healer, that can come to my mind could be "Protection Paladin" if he will be released at all. This all being said, the fact is - 4ed, no matter how good or bad it is, doesnt have trinity mechanics in combat. It is still, even simplified, the same combat system that was present in earlier editions.

  Bottom line: so far from gameplay videos etc. it seems that combat can work very well without 'trinity', but will it be present in some stage of the game, remains to be seen. And, once again, combat works pretty well with 4ed, despite that edition seems to be a bit weaker DnD edition.

  As for me, i like DnD, no matter what edition, so i will probably be fine with NW.

Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online

  SwampRob

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/07
Posts: 1010

1/10/13 8:55:40 AM#3

Nice post, Dzoni.

As a longtime D&D player (since mid 70s), I think your post is spot on.   The main detractor for me, when it comes to D&D video games, is realtime vs turn-based.   No part of the pen and paper game requires twitch mechanics, hand-eye coordination, etc.  For me, any D&D video game needs to be turn-based otherwise it is, at best, D&D-like.   

I can accept the DM-less environment, even though it reduces the D&D game to almost exclusively combat.   I can accept that certain powers will never make it into the game (Wish spell), but I can't stand the thought of dying because I didn't push a button fast enough.   That is just so very much NOT D&D.

Some of the virtual tables I've played D&D on far more accurately represent and reproduce the game better than NW or DDO.   But if some devs ever came out with a NW-like version that was turn-based, I'd be sending the my cash regularly.    Something similar to games like Baldur's Gate but multiplayer with modern graphics.   Add in the ability for player-created content and I'll never need any other Fantasy game.

 

 

*Sorry about the large font, my eyes aren't what they used to be.

  Ambros123

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/11
Posts: 891

1/10/13 10:14:14 AM#4

There will be some tanking mechanics involved.  How aggro is handled is unknown.  A demo showed a guardian fighter holding the attention of the ogre while the rogue attacked from behind for additional dmg.  The four confirmed classes are fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard.  Many speculate that ranger will be there also at launch but it there was some issues that Cryptic needed to work out with the class and they took it off the confirmed list.  However they have said that there will be much more classes at lauch so I'm guessing we'll see a lot more classes.  In a demo Andy commented that players will need to avoid dmg, hence the shit key evasion skill.  I'm guessing that we might see similar mechanics like in GW2 with avoiding dmg.  Cleric hasn't been shown off and they are working on healing in the game so we have not ideal yet how healing will work.  However healing surges was tried but they took that mechanic out.

There is no dual classing 4e in the traditional sense like in 3.5e.  You from my uinderstanding feat for multiclassing abilities and pretty much you gain a power.

With power swapping I don't think being stuck in a "slow leveling" will be much of an issue.  This was addressed long ago in WoW with dual specs and pretty much all MMOs followed suit.  Question is whether or not one can swap out specialties of their class (i.e. guardian and great weapon fighter).

Keep in mind this is a 4e D&D INSPIRED game, this is an MMO first and foremost so there will be some major deviations and fans will not be pleased.  Look at DDO, they tried to translate the rules to an MMO but butchured that and eventually just gave up.  Feats don't even resembles what's in the rulebooks, putting PrCs into PrEs (talent points pretty much for a class), Epic Destinies where players are doing 100s or 1000s points of dmg, ect ect the list can go on and on.

It will be a weakened ruleset as dmg and armor are completely different, you have stats on gear that you normally see in MMOs (assuming this isn't the case in PnP 4e), no healing surges, much less tactical combat which is what D&D is and is an action arcade RPG gameplay to name a few major differences.

  Ambros123

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/11
Posts: 891

1/10/13 10:16:06 AM#5
Originally posted by dzoni87

Hello,

  First thing to clarify if you havent read or played 4ed ruleset yet: combat is made around more simple mechanics called "Powers". Now literally, each and every class have them and they are separated into three categories: at-will, encounter and daily powers. To many older DnD players, this mechanic was very similar to MMORPG combat mechanics, moreso than PnP (which recieved a widely negative backlash and, according to some, was worst change implemented in one edition of DnD ever). To summarize it: combat in 4ed is more simplified and made more 'hack and slash'.

  Now my point is: i can see it implemented very well in Neverwinter. However, combat in NW is somewhat different than in standard MMOs. It is not a standard button masher, you need to aim to hit someone (hope this will actually work, unlike in TERA) you need to watch out for 'flanking' positions etc. But, it can work pretty good for 4ed's combat and for what it is.

  And as for classes they are releasing: they are made out of pre-set builds from 4ed (control wizard, trickster rogue etc. to name a few). So far, the class that is most close to healer, that can come to my mind could be "Protection Paladin" if he will be released at all. This all being said, the fact is - 4ed, no matter how good or bad it is, doesnt have trinity mechanics in combat. It is still, even simplified, the same combat system that was present in earlier editions.

  Bottom line: so far from gameplay videos etc. it seems that combat can work very well without 'trinity', but will it be present in some stage of the game, remains to be seen. And, once again, combat works pretty well with 4ed, despite that edition seems to be a bit weaker DnD edition.

  As for me, i like DnD, no matter what edition, so i will probably be fine with NW.

So you would consider a protection paladin more of a healer than a Devote Cleric? 

  dzoni87

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/08
Posts: 553

1/10/13 10:33:32 AM#6
Originally posted by SwampRob

Nice post, Dzoni.

As a longtime D&D player (since mid 70s), I think your post is spot on.   The main detractor for me, when it comes to D&D video games, is realtime vs turn-based.   No part of the pen and paper game requires twitch mechanics, hand-eye coordination, etc.  For me, any D&D video game needs to be turn-based otherwise it is, at best, D&D-like.   

I can accept the DM-less environment, even though it reduces the D&D game to almost exclusively combat.   I can accept that certain powers will never make it into the game (Wish spell), but I can't stand the thought of dying because I didn't push a button fast enough.   That is just so very much NOT D&D.

Some of the virtual tables I've played D&D on far more accurately represent and reproduce the game better than NW or DDO.   But if some devs ever came out with a NW-like version that was turn-based, I'd be sending the my cash regularly.    Something similar to games like Baldur's Gate but multiplayer with modern graphics.   Add in the ability for player-created content and I'll never need any other Fantasy game.

 

 

  Well, i agree with most of what you said. Out of "Temple of Elemental Evil" i am yet to see a DnD-based video game with turn-based combat that so close represent DnD combat ruleset. Heck, i didnt even liked Baldurs Gate's combat system and constant need to pause to plan your moves head on (not saying that combat itself is bad due to it, just my experience).

  That being said, i never play a video game, let alone MMO for the same reasons i am playing 'pen and paper' games. Even as you said, when i want to 'roleplay' with other people, i find using "Dungeonforge" or other virtual 'table' simulators to be more true than any "DnD video game" even Baldurs Gate. The same thing happen when i decide to RP in MMO with guildies or such - i suggest something like Skype DnD session (combined with some before-mentioned software) and we end up with it over MMO RP. However that is another story out of this topic.

  Long story short: i play MMORPGs nowadays only to level-up/craft/loot/kill stuff or to socialize with like-minded people in virtual world. And because of that, i may not have issues with playing NW at all. But if i wanted something more in-depth, i will use something else for that, other than Video game/MMORPG.

Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online

  Slechtvalk

Novice Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 33

 
OP  1/11/13 2:42:16 AM#7

Thank you very much for the precise explanation.

I do also wonder that a protection paladine could be the healer role. But for myself as typical healer im ok with wearing heavy armor instead of robes.

 

The point with powers is something i do not really understand, but thats at this point absolute ok for me. i got the main message of your explanations.

 

Everything else will be seen during beta / after release.

 

Thank you

 

P.S.: Pathfinder, from the pathfinder pnp = inofficial D&D 3.5? I was thinking about buying the 4ed rules. but its hard to get it in germany (the english version, a german translation wont be done for 4ed) and some critics about 4ed say that pathfinder as new pnp pics up the 3.5ed and pathfinder would be a better 4ed?

  Ambros123

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/11
Posts: 891

1/11/13 2:25:42 PM#8
Originally posted by Slechtvalk

Thank you very much for the precise explanation.

I do also wonder that a protection paladine could be the healer role. But for myself as typical healer im ok with wearing heavy armor instead of robes.

 

The point with powers is something i do not really understand, but thats at this point absolute ok for me. i got the main message of your explanations.

 

Everything else will be seen during beta / after release.

 

Thank you

 

P.S.: Pathfinder, from the pathfinder pnp = inofficial D&D 3.5? I was thinking about buying the 4ed rules. but its hard to get it in germany (the english version, a german translation wont be done for 4ed) and some critics about 4ed say that pathfinder as new pnp pics up the 3.5ed and pathfinder would be a better 4ed?

Well when D&D release 4e many went up in arms over a "WoWifying" of D&D and thuse Pathfinder was born as it's roots are centered around 3.5e.  Apparently it gained a very significant following to the point that Wizards is already working on a 5e, doubtful that Pathfinder was the reason for it but certainly a contributing factor.

Check out Dungeons and Dragons Encounters, I know in the US we have these events at local comic stores and something pushed by Wizards of the Coast.  This is a great thing to go attend to get a feet of 4e.

  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

1/14/13 3:55:10 AM#9
Originally posted by Slechtvalk 

We know 4 classes by video now. In my eyes (yes correct me if i am wrong) a tank class and 3 damagedealer. I am not sure if i understood all right. The old editions know healers, but tanking, well i had session where my old mage took aggro on a dragon, well oops and my own fault.

so is this game designed as trinity, or are all classes almost good damagedealer, with the plus for tanks having aggro management and clerics some heals?

No, there are four roles in 4e and there is no trinity. The four roles are Defender, controller, striker and leader. There is no "tank" as such which has infinite armor or something. A defender grabs aggro and stuns and/or damages the marked target when they decide to ignore it. The combat in 4e PnP is much complex and situational than 3e and hence it requires minis or at least a map. Because minis are much of a requirement than comfort due to complex nature of combat, it was criticised by many gamers(blah blah blah requires minis - in the 4e dragon interview video on youtube).

Healers are not required at all due to healing surges. You need a leader - one which can buff you or debuff you and make those Oh ****! situations easier. There is no need of healer.

the second with this, if not, if its an old designed trinity, i can suddenly hear the normal folks cry "we want dual class" not in the way it was meant in former 2nd edition. the wow, rift, and other style, beeing able to change between a dd / healer / tanking role.

There is a vast multiclassing and hybrid in 4e which is different than 3e multiclassing. For example in hybrid, you need not take a class once and then one later. You take two classes toghether. Like first level you take half of fighter and half of mage. The system is extensive and crazy so it will be tough for anyone to implement it at launch. However as the mechanics are already defined in pnp, the game can always use the mechanics of multiclass and hybrid later.

I am taking concern about this, because in my eyes this would give us the old problem as in any other game, almost no one wants to tank, and playing a healer to top level means beeing less fast. so this would be good for the player.

 No trinity, so it is ok. Also roles are not strictly class defined. You can do multiple roles at once. Just that a primary role for your class is what you are good at. For example, in all 3e games, sorcerers were good damagers while wizards were versatile and gave you buffs. Hence sorc in 4e are strikers and wizard are controllers(cc) but it does not mean sorc can't cc or wizard can't damage.

its not that I need that, but i fear the cries of the mass, and a producer who changes the mechanic to somewhat which could be just a normal mmo, and not D&D? i mean, this game is special to me, because its D&D. on the other side, I wouldnt like it, when its a normal mmo with just a "D&D label" in its loading screen.

 WotC is developing the game closely with cryptic stamping everything with approved mark, even color of beholder's eyes. I don't know of any other authority which can decide what D&D is.

so, what will it be, taking the rules and mechanics of 4th edition pen & paper, or a more weakened ruleset?

 Adapting the turn based mechanics to the active time combat of the game. It is not a copy of pnp ruleset. Its an adaptation. Because in game you can move your character, jump when you want, you don't need numbers to decide when you dodge. The numbers will only make the "dodge" more responsive. Less numbers will mean the reaction time of your toon is higher to respond to your command to dodge.

What you think about that, hopefully you understood my thought, english is not my mothertongue, sorry! but learning never ends.

s Half knowledge is dangerous. So I sugest you try to play and understand it yourself. 4e is quite different from 3e and more similar to pre-3e editions as it is easy to jump in to start the game. However once you start going to depths it keeps on becoming complex like a bottomless abyss.

  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

1/14/13 4:02:35 AM#10
Originally posted by Slechtvalk

...

I do also wonder that a protection paladine could be the healer role. But for myself as typical healer im ok with wearing heavy armor instead of robes.

 The point with powers is something i do not really understand, but thats at this point absolute ok for me. i got the main message of your explanations.

Devoted clerics are what you will call healers. Protecting paladins are closer to guardian fighters.

However, there are no healers but as I said before - leaders. Clerics do wear chain armor out of the box but they need feats to wear any armor of higher tier. For the feat they need high STR and CON in odd numbers (15 and 17 resp). A warpriest can afford that much and can get ful-plate or scale, but a devoted cleric may not be able to go higher than chain.

Paladins have defender role.

Clerics have leader role.

  Draemos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/20/10
Posts: 1462

1/16/13 7:10:12 AM#11
I'm really hoping they utilize the trinity system, especially if this game is primarily based around 5-man dungeon crawls.  I know some folks may not be big fans of the trinity, but the alternatives have not impressed me at all.
  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

1/16/13 8:24:15 AM#12
Originally posted by Draemos
I'm really hoping they utilize the trinity system, especially if this game is primarily based around 5-man dungeon crawls.  I know some folks may not be big fans of the trinity, but the alternatives have not impressed me at all.

Four role system is established and tested system from D&D PnP game. Its mechanics have statistically been tested by avid PnP gamers all across the globe, have been remodeled on feedback and made perfect.

 

That is much different than shoddy mechanics other games copy from elsewhere and test internally - one unique advantage of being a D&D game. Give it a try first.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2742

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

1/16/13 9:49:51 AM#13
Originally posted by SwampRob

Nice post, Dzoni.

As a longtime D&D player (since mid 70s), I think your post is spot on.   The main detractor for me, when it comes to D&D video games, is realtime vs turn-based.   No part of the pen and paper game requires twitch mechanics, hand-eye coordination, etc.  For me, any D&D video game needs to be turn-based otherwise it is, at best, D&D-like.   

I can accept the DM-less environment, even though it reduces the D&D game to almost exclusively combat.   I can accept that certain powers will never make it into the game (Wish spell), but I can't stand the thought of dying because I didn't push a button fast enough.   That is just so very much NOT D&D.

Some of the virtual tables I've played D&D on far more accurately represent and reproduce the game better than NW or DDO.   But if some devs ever came out with a NW-like version that was turn-based, I'd be sending the my cash regularly.    Something similar to games like Baldur's Gate but multiplayer with modern graphics.   Add in the ability for player-created content and I'll never need any other Fantasy game.

 

 

Theres a huge problem when transitioning from one medium to another and I highly suggest you watch:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5QFqtpWO1s&feature=player_detailpage

 

Jack Emmert explains how D&D turn based can be portrayed in an action setting faithfully.  Besides turn based combat in an MMO would be a horrible game no matter how you slice it.  It would be worse then WoW style Tab Targetting.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

1/16/13 10:05:03 AM#14
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by SwampRob
...

Theres a huge problem when transitioning from one medium to another and I highly suggest you watch:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5QFqtpWO1s&feature=player_detailpage ...

That is a very nice reference. Not many people quote it but it contains treasure of information for PnP players who also play video games :)

  SwampRob

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/07
Posts: 1010

1/16/13 10:40:55 AM#15
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by SwampRob

Nice post, Dzoni.

As a longtime D&D player (since mid 70s), I think your post is spot on.   The main detractor for me, when it comes to D&D video games, is realtime vs turn-based.   No part of the pen and paper game requires twitch mechanics, hand-eye coordination, etc.  For me, any D&D video game needs to be turn-based otherwise it is, at best, D&D-like.   

I can accept the DM-less environment, even though it reduces the D&D game to almost exclusively combat.   I can accept that certain powers will never make it into the game (Wish spell), but I can't stand the thought of dying because I didn't push a button fast enough.   That is just so very much NOT D&D.

Some of the virtual tables I've played D&D on far more accurately represent and reproduce the game better than NW or DDO.   But if some devs ever came out with a NW-like version that was turn-based, I'd be sending the my cash regularly.    Something similar to games like Baldur's Gate but multiplayer with modern graphics.   Add in the ability for player-created content and I'll never need any other Fantasy game.

Theres a huge problem when transitioning from one medium to another and I highly suggest you watch:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5QFqtpWO1s&feature=player_detailpage

 Jack Emmert explains how D&D turn based can be portrayed in an action setting faithfully.  Besides turn based combat in an MMO would be a horrible game no matter how you slice it.  It would be worse then WoW style Tab Targetting.

I've played many games on a virtual table that were turn-based.    To play a game like D&D well, it does not and should not require any twitch skills whatsoever.   You can, and should be able to take a full minute to take your turn.    While I can accept that some people wouldn't enjoy this type of gameplay, turn-based doesn't mean horrible in a video game.    I would happily pay a monthly fee for a video game which accurately represented 4e rules.

 

*Sorry about the large font, my eyes aren't what they used to be.

  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

1/16/13 10:50:46 AM#16

You misunderstand, he said horrible in MMO, not horrible in video games. We all like BG - a single player game based on turn and stuff.

But in MMO people would hate to wait for a person who stops the flow too much. There are turn based games - like atlantica - but they have a limited following and are kind of completely different.

  SwampRob

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/07
Posts: 1010

1/16/13 10:58:33 AM#17
Originally posted by gillrmn

You misunderstand, he said horrible in MMO, not horrible in video games. We all like BG - a single player game based on turn and stuff.

But in MMO people would hate to wait for a person who stops the flow too much. There are turn based games - like atlantica - but they have a limited following and are kind of completely different.

A fair point, and you're right that it's easy to see the kind of problems a turn-based system could cause in an MMO.

That said, ANY proper video game version of D&D must be utterly without twitch-skill requirements.   None whatsoever.    No aiming, no dodging, etc.   All of that is handled through the math that the pnp D&D system uses, and an accurate representation in video game form needs to maintain that.

*Sorry about the large font, my eyes aren't what they used to be.

  dwarflordking

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/05
Posts: 276

1/25/13 10:45:40 PM#18
its like you want a boring game that will fail
  gillrmn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 251

1/26/13 9:26:11 AM#19
Originally posted by ricefarmer
its like you want a boring game that will fail

People like all sorts of game and there is market of every game out there when "done right", but I do see your point here. DDO did try to make it a 'haven' for core D&D crowd, but it had to bend a little and change it to accomodate for MMO crowd over time as the crowd who is 'core D&D' and plays a D&D video game regularly - is apparently not able to sustain a MMO.

  SwampRob

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/07
Posts: 1010

1/27/13 10:58:49 AM#20
Originally posted by gillrmn
Originally posted by ricefarmer
its like you want a boring game that will fail

People like all sorts of game and there is market of every game out there when "done right", but I do see your point here. DDO did try to make it a 'haven' for core D&D crowd, but it had to bend a little and change it to accomodate for MMO crowd over time as the crowd who is 'core D&D' and plays a D&D video game regularly - is apparently not able to sustain a MMO.

Exactly.

Pen and Paper D&D doesn't reward insta-reaction skills.   My ability to jump in that game is not a matter of clicking the mouse button when I am precisely over a certain set of pixels.   And when have you ever been able to use diplomacy or bribery to avoid a conflict in an MMO?

In proper D&D, skill isn't measured by your ability to twitch react, but rather your ability to be creative, to think beyond the 4 or 5 power buttons you have in front of you.    I doubt a video game can or will ever be created that gives a true D&D experience.

*Sorry about the large font, my eyes aren't what they used to be.

2 Pages 1 2 » Search