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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Anet's curious game design decisions that caused the 20-70 wasteland

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170 posts found
  Castillle

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Joined: 10/24/10
Posts: 2681

1/09/13 3:33:13 PM#141

I levelled one char from 1-80 entirely in the starter zone for the humans a few months back.  Havent logged in after the whole fractals thing though... I prolly should but too lazy to o.o 

I think that pushed majority of the population to the fractals since thats what happened to my guild forums when they started fractals.

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  fiontar

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/07/04
Posts: 3694

1/09/13 5:20:29 PM#142
Originally posted by jpnz

In a reddit AMA, ANet's devs accepted the 20-70 wasteland issue as valid and said 'we'll have to figure something out'.

An MMO that is top / bottom level heavy isn't anything new but compared to other MMOs, apparently this issue was more extreme.

It also doesn't help that most DE will constantly fail if there isn't enough players involved which means most players can't progress and see the next one. Since DE was suppose to be GW2's most hyped feature (as an aside, remember the 'zones will change!' lie? ANet, what happened? T_T), having it constantly in a failed state highlights this issue even more.

So what are the major design decisions that made this issue into such a big one?

1. Level scaling. Having a constant challenge by scaling is a game design decision that is mostly in racing games now and for good reason. If you are at level cap in WoW or other MMOs, going to any area that isn't the 'high end' doesn't really concern you.  You will ROFL-STOMP everything in that zone so there is little barrier on actually doing it.

Not in GW2. Whether you like this design or not, it is manifesting in GW2 with the 'wasteland' problem as there will be less players willing to go to a zone if there are little rewards for a lot of risk.

 

2. Too many mobs / areas have too many invisible walls

The GW2 map shows a game world that screams 'arificial'. There are no 'curves' or anything. Just straight up rectangles filled with invisible walls.

The mob intensity makes it really difficult to travel from point A to point B and so people are less willing to do it.

 

3. Self-recursive problem

The problem itself of 'less people in the world' causes issue 2 to become even worse which in turn causes more people to avoid going out into the world.

 

I said 'curious' cause I don't think they were thoughtout that well and now ANet is trying to figure something out.

They mentioned that they don't like the henchmen idea but I don't see a solution without redesigning their game which is probably the last resort. I don't mind having henchmen cause they worked great in GW1 so not sure why the resistance now.

Some serious lack of logic in the above post. Also have to echo the impression that the poster hasn't actually played the game.

1. Level Scaling

Level Scaling is not part of the problem for relatively low map populations in 20-70 zones. It's part of the solution. Arenanet just needs to provide more game play reasons to revisit zones. According to the hints given on the January-March updates this will be a renewed development focus. We don't know exactly what they have in mind, but if they can make it more fun to return to lower level zones, more people will play there. The level scaling mechanic is needed. (Loot scaling works ok now, but probably should be tuned to further narrow the gap between playing in an at level zone and a lower level one).

2. Invisible Walls/Mob Density.

Ummm..... this is the bullet point that hints most strongly towards the OP not being a player of the game. The absolute limits of each game zone may fit with in a large box, but the bounderies you must travel with in are almost always delineated via organic, irregular terrain, rather than a linear invisible wall. There are walls in a few places where terrain design allowed for unintended access to certain areas, but these are very rare.

Unless you are trying to run through a zone more than 5 levels above your character level, there is no problem "threading the needle" between mobs and avoiding those that do aggro on you. Once again, obviously not a player of the game.

3. Feedback loop.

There isn't one. No player with a level 80 character avoids level 20-70 zones for any of the reasons given by the OP, so, no, it's not a compounding problem.

*

The game world is massive and the population curve is spread out more evenly. World PvE, unfortunately, is much less rewarding than Dungeon play, with Fractals of the Mist worsening the issue. If world PvE across all level ranges, including via level scaling, becomes more rewarding in coin, loot and FUN, a larger ortion of level 80s will be found out in the game world, rather than doing FotM all day.

Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3540

 
OP  1/09/13 11:53:19 PM#143
Originally posted by fiontar
 

Some serious lack of logic in the above post. Also have to echo the impression that the poster hasn't actually played the game.

1. Level Scaling

Level Scaling is not part of the problem for relatively low map populations in 20-70 zones. It's part of the solution. Arenanet just needs to provide more game play reasons to revisit zones. 

/snip

2. Invisible Walls/Mob Density.

Ummm..... this is the bullet point that hints most strongly towards the OP not being a player of the game. 

/snip

Unless you are trying to run through a zone more than 5 levels above your character level, there is no problem "threading the needle" between mobs and avoiding those that do aggro on you. Once again, obviously not a player of the game.

3. Feedback loop.

There isn't one. No player with a level 80 character avoids level 20-70 zones for any of the reasons given by the OP, so, no, it's not a compounding problem.

 

This post talks 'logic' so lets logically break it down shall we?

1. Level scaling issue.

My position is that making it harder will bring LESS players out into the world.

This post says making it harder we bring MORE players out into the world.

Either logic works I guess except my logic has real life examples; just look at the million posts that cries about the 'casual ruining our game!' posts.

 

2. I do play but that isn't evidence or logical of anything. A so-called logical post doesn't go 'well you don't play so your opinion is invalid!' without actual evidence.

My evidence is the actual GW2 Map; http://luna-atra.com/g2c/img/map/world_map.jpg

Zones are rectangle and it only allows you to exit / enter through a fixed instance portal.

If you have any evidence that the above is wrong, then yes, I haven't played GW2 as I am clearly playing some other game.

 

Threading the needle? You have gone to Orr right? RIGHT?!

 

3.Well, this is easy to rebuttal. I have an 80 Ele that avoids 20-70 area. Guess there goes your 'logic' of 'No 80 does X!'

 

[mod edit]

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3085

I am more than some of my parts

1/10/13 1:23:12 AM#144
Originally posted by jpnz

 

 

This post talks 'logic' so lets logically break it down shall we?

1. Level scaling issue.

My position is that making it harder will bring LESS players out into the world.

This post says making it harder we bring MORE players out into the world.

Either logic works I guess except my logic has real life examples; just look at the million posts that cries about the 'casual ruining our game!' posts.

 I play in the 20 to 70 zones every single day. I've never been alone or in a wasteland. Another real life example for you.

2. I do play but that isn't evidence or logical of anything. A so-called logical post doesn't go 'well you don't play so your opinion is invalid!' without actual evidence.

My evidence is the actual GW2 Map; http://luna-atra.com/g2c/img/map/world_map.jpg

Zones are rectangle and it only allows you to exit / enter through a fixed instance portal.

If you have any evidence that the above is wrong, then yes, I haven't played GW2 as I am clearly playing some other game.

 So what you are saying is that because the border of the map is a rectangle, this causes people to not want to go to 20 - 70 zones? Is there a fear of rectangles that I didn't know about?

Threading the needle? You have gone to Orr right? RIGHT?!

 So because you have difficulty "threading the needle" in a level 80 zone, this cause people to not play in 20-70 zones?

3.Well, this is easy to rebuttal. I have an 80 Ele that avoids 20-70 area. Guess there goes your 'logic' of 'No 80 does X!'

 

[mod edit]

Thanks for your logical input.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3540

 
OP  1/10/13 1:35:05 AM#145
Originally posted by eyelolled
 

Thanks for your logical input.

Hey, if you want to chat with your buddy 'fiontar' on why he is saying the stuff he is saying, go right ahead.

I know, I know, he didn't present the 'Pro-GW2' argument in the best of light but that's not a conversation you should have with me.

If you want to actually post something that counters my logic, that's cool too.

 

Your welcome by the way.

 

PS. Not sure why so many people are getting so defensive about it though, ANet accepted the issue and even said 'we have to figure something out'.

If you don't like it, take it up with ANet.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Isawa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/08
Posts: 1066

1/10/13 1:42:14 AM#146
Originally posted by jpnz

It also doesn't help that most DE will constantly fail if there isn't enough players involved which means most players can't progress and see the next one. Since DE was suppose to be GW2's most hyped feature (as an aside, remember the 'zones will change!' lie? ANet, what happened? T_T), having it constantly in a failed state highlights this issue even more.

Several pages into this already, but this has been false time and time again for me. I have leveled four characters to 80. I have constantly been able to succeed at DEs and group DEs solo. For the major boss DEs, there have always been a handful or more of players to come in and fight alongside. The bast majority of DEs will not constantly fail. Only a very small fraction of them will, and most of those are in Orr, and players group up every now and then to clear those ones (like the temples).

Even when I bring a lvl 80 to these "dead zones", I see plenty of others characters participating in DEs. I guess these zones are considere wastelands because the screen is not FULL OF PLAYERS and spells like in the first couple of weeks. I much prefer less than 10 people for every DE than the initial rush of 30+

On my server, Tarnished Coast, I get a feeling that the "wastelands" aren't as lifeless as people make them out to be...

 

  User Deleted
1/10/13 2:29:52 AM#147
Originally posted by Eluldor
Originally posted by jpnz

It also doesn't help that most DE will constantly fail if there isn't enough players involved which means most players can't progress and see the next one. Since DE was suppose to be GW2's most hyped feature (as an aside, remember the 'zones will change!' lie? ANet, what happened? T_T), having it constantly in a failed state highlights this issue even more.

Several pages into this already, but this has been false time and time again for me. I have leveled four characters to 80. I have constantly been able to succeed at DEs and group DEs solo. For the major boss DEs, there have always been a handful or more of players to come in and fight alongside. The bast majority of DEs will not constantly fail. Only a very small fraction of them will, and most of those are in Orr, and players group up every now and then to clear those ones (like the temples).

Even when I bring a lvl 80 to these "dead zones", I see plenty of others characters participating in DEs. I guess these zones are considere wastelands because the screen is not FULL OF PLAYERS and spells like in the first couple of weeks. I much prefer less than 10 people for every DE than the initial rush of 30+

On my server, Tarnished Coast, I get a feeling that the "wastelands" aren't as lifeless as people make them out to be...

 

On Gandara same thing, theres enough people in each zone to do DEs, but its not a crowd. You can level comfortably. And if i want quick 5 events for daily guess where ill go - to some of lower level zones that i know have lots of players and events trigger all the time.

And Gandara is somewhat medium in population.

But yah, fractals hurt open world play everywhere, not just in 20-70 area (more in 80 areas), also regular dungeons, putting best stuff  in there makes and nerfed everything in open world, people doing just fractals. It was a mistake and one that ANet acknowledged and is working to sort it out. Hopefully WvW will get some love gear wise too.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2584

1/10/13 2:49:43 AM#148
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by fiontar
 

Some serious lack of logic in the above post. Also have to echo the impression that the poster hasn't actually played the game.

1. Level Scaling

Level Scaling is not part of the problem for relatively low map populations in 20-70 zones. It's part of the solution. Arenanet just needs to provide more game play reasons to revisit zones. 

/snip

2. Invisible Walls/Mob Density.

Ummm..... this is the bullet point that hints most strongly towards the OP not being a player of the game. 

/snip

Unless you are trying to run through a zone more than 5 levels above your character level, there is no problem "threading the needle" between mobs and avoiding those that do aggro on you. Once again, obviously not a player of the game.

3. Feedback loop.

There isn't one. No player with a level 80 character avoids level 20-70 zones for any of the reasons given by the OP, so, no, it's not a compounding problem.

 

This post talks 'logic' so lets logically break it down shall we?

1. Level scaling issue.

My position is that making it harder will bring LESS players out into the world.

This post says making it harder we bring MORE players out into the world.

Either logic works I guess except my logic has real life examples; just look at the million posts that cries about the 'casual ruining our game!' posts.

 

2. I do play but that isn't evidence or logical of anything. A so-called logical post doesn't go 'well you don't play so your opinion is invalid!' without actual evidence.

My evidence is the actual GW2 Map; http://luna-atra.com/g2c/img/map/world_map.jpg

Zones are rectangle and it only allows you to exit / enter through a fixed instance portal.

If you have any evidence that the above is wrong, then yes, I haven't played GW2 as I am clearly playing some other game.

 

Threading the needle? You have gone to Orr right? RIGHT?!

 

3.Well, this is easy to rebuttal. I have an 80 Ele that avoids 20-70 area. Guess there goes your 'logic' of 'No 80 does X!'

 

For a so-called 'logical' posts, I see little (actually NONE) logic.

1. The problem is Dungeon Play is much harder than the PvE World, especially  non level 70+ areas, making your argument void.

2. One can divide a globe into rectangles. There is no doubt you can travel between areas only by specific paths, but again that is something normal.

Rivers, mountains, sea, canyons, deserts, swamps,are all geographic features that divide our world.

Sure, one could say the designers clearly made the world in a way that doesn't have huge plains covering multiple zones.

The only way for one to see that zones are rectangular is by looking at the map because if you just wander around, you won't see anything strange.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3540

 
OP  1/10/13 3:49:15 AM#149
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
 

1. The problem is Dungeon Play is much harder than the PvE World, especially  non level 70+ areas, making your argument void.

2. One can divide a globe into rectangles. There is no doubt you can travel between areas only by specific paths, but again that is something normal.

Rivers, mountains, sea, canyons, deserts, swamps,are all geographic features that divide our world.

Sure, one could say the designers clearly made the world in a way that doesn't have huge plains covering multiple zones.

The only way for one to see that zones are rectangular is by looking at the map because if you just wander around, you won't see anything strange.

Did you really just compare group instances with world PVE content? 

/facepalm

 

Trying to say it isn't an 'issue' when ANet has accepted the issue as fact, is probably not going to work that well.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2584

1/10/13 5:26:28 AM#150
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
 

1. The problem is Dungeon Play is much harder than the PvE World, especially  non level 70+ areas, making your argument void.

2. One can divide a globe into rectangles. There is no doubt you can travel between areas only by specific paths, but again that is something normal.

Rivers, mountains, sea, canyons, deserts, swamps,are all geographic features that divide our world.

Sure, one could say the designers clearly made the world in a way that doesn't have huge plains covering multiple zones.

The only way for one to see that zones are rectangular is by looking at the map because if you just wander around, you won't see anything strange.

Did you really just compare group instances with world PVE content? 

/facepalm

 

Trying to say it isn't an 'issue' when ANet has accepted the issue as fact, is probably not going to work that well.

Players either are playing PvP, much harder than the open world, Dungeons, much harder that the open world, WvW a different beast than open world.

You say that the culprit was the downlevelling system, which makes the world harder and so people play it less.

"1. Level scaling issue.

My position is that making it harder will bring LESS players out into the world.

This post says making it harder we bring MORE players out into the world."

That is a false argument because the cause of less players in the world in not the difficulty or not. Dungeosn are harder and players are there.

Just look at games where the best loot is dengoens and raids - empty worlds.

People play less of the open world not because it is harder or there is a downlevelling system but because it is less rewarding than the dungeons.

It is easy,people bitched that Dungeons weren't rewarding enough, so they flocked Orr and the easier dungeons.

Anet boost dungeon rewards > people leave Orr and flock in to them.

Simple.

Also that big admission of the problem is:

"This ties back to what i was saying earlier in which Ascended Gear and really any progression related reward mechanism that impacts the world globally should be introduced (Where possible) across the game and inside the different type of player's activities specifically. Allowing players to continue doing the things they love without focusing player migration to a specific part of the world. The introduction of the Ascended reward in one part of the game was a mistake and one that i don't want to make again.
Soon Ascended Gear will adhere to these rules."
 

Full AMA https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PmsDw6AfTYzy7Wh1j_bnaz4Fyop3_8wpbxGcxrhgNUI/edit?pli=1

 

 

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1744

1/10/13 5:27:07 AM#151
Originally posted by rojo6934

Too many mobs? Rift has too many mobs packed in one area and you cant roam freely without fighting which is annoying

I think GW2 has no problems with the amount of mobs. But thats just me.

Count me in. :-) I left first time Rift exactly because not enough of players to close rifts, this has allower uncontrolled invasions all over ... npcs in quest hubs killed in secs ... sometimes could not play for days, whenever logged in no players around or at least not enough. Like much more Gw2 in this (but also other) sense.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

1/10/13 6:52:21 AM#152
Originally posted by jpnz

 

This post talks 'logic' so lets logically break it down shall we?

1. Level scaling issue.

My position is that making it harder will bring LESS players out into the world.

This post says making it harder we bring MORE players out into the world.

Either logic works I guess except my logic has real life examples; just look at the million posts that cries about the 'casual ruining our game!' posts.

 

2. I do play but that isn't evidence or logical of anything. A so-called logical post doesn't go 'well you don't play so your opinion is invalid!' without actual evidence.

My evidence is the actual GW2 Map; http://luna-atra.com/g2c/img/map/world_map.jpg

Zones are rectangle and it only allows you to exit / enter through a fixed instance portal.

If you have any evidence that the above is wrong, then yes, I haven't played GW2 as I am clearly playing some other game.

 

Threading the needle? You have gone to Orr right? RIGHT?!

 

3.Well, this is easy to rebuttal. I have an 80 Ele that avoids 20-70 area. Guess there goes your 'logic' of 'No 80 does X!'

 

For a so-called 'logical' posts, I see little (actually NONE) logic.

Nit pick alert. They're not "fixed instance portals". There are zones, not instances, which are always running and persistant as opposed to instances which are private copies of an area.

 

The zones may be rectangular on the map, but they don't feel that way in the game. 

Oderint, dum metuant.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3540

 
OP  1/10/13 1:05:31 PM#153
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by jpnz
 

/snip

Just look at games where the best loot is dengoens and raids - empty worlds.

/snip

Also that big admission of the problem is:

"This ties back to what i was saying earlier in which Ascended Gear and really any progression related reward mechanism that impacts the world globally should be introduced (Where possible) across the game and inside the different type of player's activities specifically. Allowing players to continue doing the things they love without focusing player migration to a specific part of the world. The introduction of the Ascended reward in one part of the game was a mistake and one that i don't want to make again.
Soon Ascended Gear will adhere to these rules."
 

Full AMA https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PmsDw6AfTYzy7Wh1j_bnaz4Fyop3_8wpbxGcxrhgNUI/edit?pli=1

  

Are they empty?

I am not going to say whether 'GAME X' is populated or not, but ANet is the only company that admits it is a 'problem' in their game.

 

Actually, there were two instances.

That's the first one and the second one is this;

http://dulfy.net/2012/11/26/gw2-chris-whiteside-ama-on-reddit/

 

43. I am L26, and it is reaaaally slow going, as the maps and events are deserted, and everything you designed for crowds in mind, I have to solo. Is there any chance of getting heroes/henchman to offset this, at least until L80?

I love the idea of henchmen and this is something we would discuss, however the problem you raise initially would be complemented by this feature rather than fixed. We are going to ensure full use of the world by not polarizing content. This has been a huge topic of conversation today. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and questions.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2584

1/10/13 4:26:08 PM#154
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by jpnz
 

/snip

Just look at games where the best loot is dengoens and raids - empty worlds.

/snip

Also that big admission of the problem is:

"This ties back to what i was saying earlier in which Ascended Gear and really any progression related reward mechanism that impacts the world globally should be introduced (Where possible) across the game and inside the different type of player's activities specifically. Allowing players to continue doing the things they love without focusing player migration to a specific part of the world. The introduction of the Ascended reward in one part of the game was a mistake and one that i don't want to make again.
Soon Ascended Gear will adhere to these rules."
 

Full AMA https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PmsDw6AfTYzy7Wh1j_bnaz4Fyop3_8wpbxGcxrhgNUI/edit?pli=1

  

Are they empty?

I am not going to say whether 'GAME X' is populated or not, but ANet is the only company that admits it is a 'problem' in their game.

 

Actually, there were two instances.

That's the first one and the second one is this;

http://dulfy.net/2012/11/26/gw2-chris-whiteside-ama-on-reddit/

 

43. I am L26, and it is reaaaally slow going, as the maps and events are deserted, and everything you designed for crowds in mind, I have to solo. Is there any chance of getting heroes/henchman to offset this, at least until L80?

I love the idea of henchmen and this is something we would discuss, however the problem you raise initially would be complemented by this feature rather than fixed. We are going to ensure full use of the world by not polarizing content. This has been a huge topic of conversation today. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and questions.

Just because other companies don't admit problems (maybe it isn't a problem since most of the content in the open world for most MMORPGs is soloable) it doesn't mean the world isn't empty.

Still there is no admission that the world is empty, just that they will make the open world a reliable alternative to the instances concerning rewards.

As I said it is all a question of luck - sometimes there is tons of people others just a few.

(I guess we may say Rift had a problem with its own rifts.)

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3540

 
OP  1/10/13 10:50:37 PM#155
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
 

Just because other companies don't admit problems (maybe it isn't a problem since most of the content in the open world for most MMORPGs is soloable) it doesn't mean the world isn't empty.

Still there is no admission that the world is empty, just that they will make the open world a reliable alternative to the instances concerning rewards.

As I said it is all a question of luck - sometimes there is tons of people others just a few.

(I guess we may say Rift had a problem with its own rifts.)

Are other game worlds top/bottom heavy? They might be but that's not the point of this thread.

This thread is to discuss the high-level game designs that might have caused the problem in GW2, not GAME X.

 

I'd like to point out that this thread accepts that ANet is a competent game company that knows what goes on in their game and that they were honest in that AMA.

If a fanboy wants to say 'ANet lied in that AMA' or 'ANet doesn't know what goes on in their own game', that's a separate issue for another thread.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  User Deleted
1/10/13 11:08:59 PM#156

I managed to solo / small group finish more than 3/4 of the zone bosses for 20-70. Low population really isnt an issue for completion of events.

The reason these zones are so barren is due to no real reason to keep doing them once you have gotten 100% completion. They need to beef up rewards from the open world if they want people to continue using it.

Is it a problem for leveling or zone completion? No. But it does lead to a perception of an empty world.

Perhaps if they added regular world events which gave notification to everyone in the game and had decent rewards for all levels they could get people visiting the old zones, although thats more of a band aid, much like the dragon spawns which are always busy. Permanently better rewards for low level DEs would be required to keep the zones busy.  

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2584

1/11/13 2:25:03 AM#157
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
 

Just because other companies don't admit problems (maybe it isn't a problem since most of the content in the open world for most MMORPGs is soloable) it doesn't mean the world isn't empty.

Still there is no admission that the world is empty, just that they will make the open world a reliable alternative to the instances concerning rewards.

As I said it is all a question of luck - sometimes there is tons of people others just a few.

(I guess we may say Rift had a problem with its own rifts.)

Are other game worlds top/bottom heavy? They might be but that's not the point of this thread.

This thread is to discuss the high-level game designs that might have caused the problem in GW2, not GAME X.

 

I'd like to point out that this thread accepts that ANet is a competent game company that knows what goes on in their game and that they were honest in that AMA.

If a fanboy wants to say 'ANet lied in that AMA' or 'ANet doesn't know what goes on in their own game', that's a separate issue for another thread.

And we are discussing it.

It just isn't the ones you have pointed, difficulty (due to number of mobs scalling) and bad area design.

Things that would help to keep the areas more populated:

- More events.

. Better drops from veteran and especially champion mobs.

- More rewarding event chains with skins only achievable from DEs.

- More Karma merchant options.

- Scavanger quests.

- Non tiered crafting that allows some of the best items to also require low level materials (Mystic forge allows to upgrade materials and whatnot but it isn't enough).

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3540

 
OP  1/11/13 3:12:14 AM#158
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
 

And we are discussing it.

It just isn't the ones you have pointed, difficulty (due to number of mobs scalling) and bad area design.

Things that would help to keep the areas more populated:

- More events.

. Better drops from veteran and especially champion mobs.

- More rewarding event chains with skins only achievable from DEs.

- More Karma merchant options.

- Scavanger quests.

- Non tiered crafting that allows some of the best items to also require low level materials (Mystic forge allows to upgrade materials and whatnot but it isn't enough).

Would more events really get the players into the world more?

What's the percentage of events that players have seen right now? I know for me, it is less than half; at 80, I'm not going to run those events when I can run other more rewarding events.

The hithrathi highlands chain event is fairly nice that a lot of people saw but since it was 'nerfed', it basically died in my server.

I don't think it is the 'content' per se, I think it is the rewards. Look at how the Bal-Temple DE is constantly being done cause people want that Karma vendor.

Maybe run X amount of different DEs and you get a skin or w/e?

I hope they dial back some of the down-scaling as well, maybe not so much like WoW (where they are none) but a few levels higher than right now.

I think a henchman is a good idea for the following reason. If every player had a henchman, a 10 man DE event suddenly looks like 20. The perception between 10 and 20 is huge and the perception that 'hey there are a lot of chars here.' is very powerful to players.

I think the Mystic Forge is a terrible game design (from the player's perspective) and explained very poorly but that's my personal opinion.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2584

1/11/13 4:55:19 AM#159
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
 

And we are discussing it.

It just isn't the ones you have pointed, difficulty (due to number of mobs scalling) and bad area design.

Things that would help to keep the areas more populated:

- More events.

. Better drops from veteran and especially champion mobs.

- More rewarding event chains with skins only achievable from DEs.

- More Karma merchant options.

- Scavanger quests.

- Non tiered crafting that allows some of the best items to also require low level materials (Mystic forge allows to upgrade materials and whatnot but it isn't enough).

Would more events really get the players into the world more?

What's the percentage of events that players have seen right now? I know for me, it is less than half; at 80, I'm not going to run those events when I can run other more rewarding events.

The hithrathi highlands chain event is fairly nice that a lot of people saw but since it was 'nerfed', it basically died in my server.

I don't think it is the 'content' per se, I think it is the rewards. Look at how the Bal-Temple DE is constantly being done cause people want that Karma vendor.

Maybe run X amount of different DEs and you get a skin or w/e?

I hope they dial back some of the down-scaling as well, maybe not so much like WoW (where they are none) but a few levels higher than right now.

I think a henchman is a good idea for the following reason. If every player had a henchman, a 10 man DE event suddenly looks like 20. The perception between 10 and 20 is huge and the perception that 'hey there are a lot of chars here.' is very powerful to players.

I think the Mystic Forge is a terrible game design (from the player's perspective) and explained very poorly but that's my personal opinion.

COncerning the number of Events.

Depends on how one plays.

If you spend a considerable amount in an area or if you play many alts at the same time, you might see many events often.

Still, the biggest problem is rewards and the fact DE still get stuck and it require the intervention of Anet to get them sorted.

For example, many times one just avoid that champion boss hidden in some cave and notlinked to a DE.

I sometimes kill it but then I get a white item or a blue item and I wonder why did I bother. I mean it is fun but I might as well skipped and do that DE that also has a champion boss that at least gives some reward.

While I like henchmen and heroes (a large part of my Guild Wars experience was 2 or 3 players +5-6 heroes) I think it isn't needed.

The game already has NPCs and some DEs, like the one in Straits of Devastation that starts with the protection of the submarines and follow with a massive disembark to conquer a base, already bring that feeling of war without needing many live players.

So they could just boost the number of allied NPCs participating in events if the numbers of players are low.

I don't really like Mystic forge either due to the RNG nature of it, but what i was talking about was maybe that level 80 exotic sword need some tier1 gems that require ore, plus somme iron and some tier 3 blood alongside higher tier materials.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  Isawa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/08
Posts: 1066

1/11/13 5:29:12 AM#160
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
 

1. The problem is Dungeon Play is much harder than the PvE World, especially  non level 70+ areas, making your argument void.

2. One can divide a globe into rectangles. There is no doubt you can travel between areas only by specific paths, but again that is something normal.

Rivers, mountains, sea, canyons, deserts, swamps,are all geographic features that divide our world.

Sure, one could say the designers clearly made the world in a way that doesn't have huge plains covering multiple zones.

The only way for one to see that zones are rectangular is by looking at the map because if you just wander around, you won't see anything strange.

Did you really just compare group instances with world PVE content? 

/facepalm

Trying to say it isn't an 'issue' when ANet has accepted the issue as fact, is probably not going to work that well.

Just going to say this once, you need to stop making this argument that Anet accepted it as fact. They accepted that there are fewer players in these zones than other zones, but that DOES NOT mean that there are not enough players to do a DE.

Lastly, some obscure number like 99% of DEs are soloable. I also understand that some people suck and about 5 or so of them make up for a good player :)

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