Originally posted by dcrose01

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Alberel

Originally posted by Quirhid

Reply to the topic: Less whine about the "good ol' days".

 

1. Need to form a group? Huge inconvenience. Probably one of the biggest hinderances of the genre.

 

Considering grouping and playing with other people (as opposed to playing a soloRPG in a multiplayer world) was originally the entire POINT of the genre if you're complaining then you probably should never have picked an MMO up in the first place.

It's like going to a swimming pool and asking them to drain the water because you don't like swimming.

If WoW had never happened we'd probably still have group-centric MMOs but instead WoW brought in a new solo audience who now believe the rest of the genre should cater to them exclusively... There are a LOT of burnt MMO vets looking for a solid game with oldschool values regarding grouping and community, if only a dev would willingly forgo trying to target WoW's solo fanbase for once (seeing as it leads to nothing but failures anyway).

I know this is going to fall on deaf ears but here it goes:

• The "entire point of MMOs" is not grouping. Its about sharing a game space with other people.
• There is no "solo-audience" - just a large segment of players who sometimes like to play alone.
• The oldschool vets are a relatively small audience. Likely a high profile game catering to this crowd would be very risky business. For the moment, you have to settle for indies.
• Many of the aforementioned vets wouldn't return to an oldschool game specifically because of those values and the many inconveniences they bring.
• Much of the glow of the so called golden age MMOs was just novelty. They were new and exciting then, but if you'd return to them now, they'd be anything but. Try it.
• Using impossible stereotypes doesn't give you any credibility or help your point.
• Failure, it seems, is largely subjective. One thing is for sure: to my knowledge, every themepark marked as a "failure" by the bittervets has made profit - every single one of them. Yes, even SWTOR.
• Meanwhile, these bittervets have only one, just one, example to show the viability of oldschool values.

Clearly you have either, 1: never experience a golden age mmo , or 2: are more bitter then the aformentioned "bittervet". You are missing the point entierly. If we the vets have to explain it you won't ever get. But clearly you my friend, are in the minority here.

Speak for yourself please. I never experienced this "Golden Age of MMOs" either. Although I may be considered a vet I'm not trying to fool myself into believing the best days are behind me. Also, I cut my teeth on UO and never once was I forced, coherced, told, funneled nor hered to group with anyone. I grouped with people because I enjoyed doing it. I never needed a incentive to do so.

1. Need to form a group? Huge inconvenience. Probably one of the biggest hinderances of the genre.
2. Buffing. Stupid mechanic, imo. Needlessly creates dependencies. Long term buffs should be permanent (meaning no long term buffs) and buffs more tactical in general. All removable by offensive abilites ofcourse.
3. See number 1.
4. Meaningful is entirely subjective. I don't find any meaning in fighting over a virtual castle. It is pointless. I'd much rather play for ladder rankings and tournaments.

Originally posted by TheScavenger

I really miss standing around for 6 hours, spamming

 

"LFG! Level 100 needed for dungeon"

 

And seeing chat go by so fast that no one sees your LFG or trade messages, because 1000 other people are spamming chat for the same thing

 

you're doing it wrong. have you thought about whispering one and teaming up ?

I have been playing since EQ and in my opinion almost everything has improved since the "good ol' days," with a few exceptions. 

I totally miss keep seige like DAoC had, I miss PVP actually accomplishing something, such as control of a very high benefit dungeon, and I miss seeing the names of the people getting killed on the frontier flashing up for everyone to see.  Deeznuts was just killed by Raventree.  In your FACE, Deeznuts!!  HA!  He's mad now, so I know he is going to be looking for me... better keep an eye out.

What I don't miss is standing around waiting for some action, casters that can't cast in combat, and CC that takes out entire groups without them being able to return fire.  Ugh, that was the worst.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Reply to the topic: Less whine about the "good ol' days".

 

1. Need to form a group? Huge inconvenience. Probably one of the biggest hinderances of the genre.
2. Buffing. Stupid mechanic, imo. Needlessly creates dependencies. Long term buffs should be permanent (meaning no long term buffs) and buffs more tactical in general. All removable by offensive abilites ofcourse.
3. See number 1.
4. Meaningful is entirely subjective. I don't find any meaning in fighting over a virtual castle. It is pointless. I'd much rather play for ladder rankings and tournaments.

 

And here he is as usual on queue.

Go play console games...really, because everything you talk about are console game qualities. MMORPG's and console games are a different genre for a reason. Every damn thread that dares say something about games that take time, thinking, or interaction you are sure to jump on. If you don't like the topic...move on and don't reply with your usual garbble of  anti-MMORPG whine.

I sure don't enjoy being able to get to level cap in a month or less (Without really trying), being able to solo almost everything and not have to talk to another person, have quest NPC's marked with ridiculously large "!" and the accompanying quest being 10 feet away and able to complete in a few minutes for some reward you've already out leveld the use of, etc, etc, etc.....

But I don't find EVERY thread someone is talking about those kinds, or talking about things they enjoy in them, or miss from a particular one that is closed down because everyone got bored of it and the population fell off after 6 months or less and do what you do. Just stop already.

Why do you come to this site or play MMORPG's if you don't like them as they were intended. Again...there is a reason they are a seperate genre. I have a full time job and responsibilities, but I still play Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, which isn't instant gratification, etc. I find or make the time. I take it at the pace I can enjoy it and progress at my own pace. If you can't find the time, then maybe it's time to stop playing MMORPG's or it isn't the genre for you.

And I know this will probably get me a warning or ban, but cripes...enough is enough.

Originally posted by eyelolled
I miss the players being able to accept the small problems because the developers were actually able to join thousands of players all across the world within one game!  I remember being enthralled by the aspect that I was playing a game with a guy from  farfarawayville. I remember being just one of the people that respected the efforts involved in trying to make something new.

There was never a time when players accepted the small problems. There has been constant bitching about everything since EQ.

I miss groups and social circles that make a huge difference in your play experience.

I miss interplayer dependance in the worst way. Whether its buffs, or leveling content the majority of MMOS cater to the solo player.

While I don't mind soloing, I really dislike that grouping is so undervalued and that large quest chains/phasing are a HUGE DETERENT to grouping for leveling content.

I like specific tasks that are highly desireable to be done to only be done by a group.

Don't get me wrong, I like that there is solo content added to a game. But basically everything besides endgame raid content (and even that is getting solo queueable group finders added in some games) is solo friendly. Which makes groups less and less and less meaningful.

I also miss corpse runs and significance to player death and downtime for healing/mana because the 20 second waits being removed further reduces socialization time. Nowdays a person will quest next to you and never say a word. Its sad. I play my MMOs AROUND other people but not WITH people.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Quirhid

Reply to the topic: Less whine about the "good ol' days".

 

1. Need to form a group? Huge inconvenience. Probably one of the biggest hinderances of the genre.
2. Buffing. Stupid mechanic, imo. Needlessly creates dependencies. Long term buffs should be permanent (meaning no long term buffs) and buffs more tactical in general. All removable by offensive abilites ofcourse.
3. See number 1.
4. Meaningful is entirely subjective. I don't find any meaning in fighting over a virtual castle. It is pointless. I'd much rather play for ladder rankings and tournaments.

 

And here he is as usual on queue.

Go play console games...really, because everything you talk about are console game qualities. MMORPG's and console games are a different genre for a reason. Every damn thread that dares say something about games that take time, thinking, or interaction you are sure to jump on. If you don't like the topic...move on and don't reply with your usual garbble of  anti-MMORPG whine.

I sure don't enjoy being able to get to level cap in a month or less (Without really trying), being able to solo almost everything and not have to talk to another person, have quest NPC's marked with ridiculously large "!" and the accompanying quest being 10 feet away and able to complete in a few minutes for some reward you've already out leveld the use of, etc, etc, etc.....

But I don't find EVERY thread someone is talking about those kinds, or talking about things they enjoy in them, or miss from a particular one that is closed down because everyone got bored of it and the population fell off after 6 months or less and do what you do. Just stop already.

Why do you come to this site or play MMORPG's if you don't like them as they were intended. Again...there is a reason they are a seperate genre. I have a full time job and responsibilities, but I still play Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, which isn't instant gratification, etc. I find or make the time. I take it at the pace I can enjoy it and progress. If you can't find the time, then maybe it's time to stop playing MMORPG's.

And I know this will probably get me a warning or ban, but cripes...enough is enough.

Like I told the other poster and the OP. None of the things Quirhid are rallying against on his list responding to the OP existed in UO, so maybe he's not looking for another version of EQ? All I see are mechanics listed that led us to this point in the first place. Only difference is that those games that feature those tired concepts are still alive and kickin. It's time for a new direction.

It's like asking someone to make something different after serving you cake for the last 20 years. So they reach into the cupboard and take out all the ingredients they are use to working with and in the end add strawberries. Then they serve it to you and upon first bite you exclaim. Hey this is cake again, only with strawberries! They look at you perplexed because they technically did make something different this time and you facepalm stating that maybe they should work with different core ingredients next time around. And politely tell them for instance if they have an idea in their head to make pie don't start with ingredients used to make a freakin cake.

Death Meant Something: As annoying as it was, doing corpse runs in the original Everquest, oh man, it added a whole new element to gaming to where you were actually cautious and paranoid about the things you were doing because you know if you died... oh man it was a huge issues...

Todays games... death is nothing more than a minor inconvenience.. a small repair bill or whatnot blah.. original EQ death made you not only cautious about what you were doing but it actually made you scared in many a situation and fear is something no mmo today offers at all.

Mostly?

The endless free time and zero responsibility it took to play them to their fullest extent.

Originally posted by Ramonski7

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Quirhid

Reply to the topic: Less whine about the "good ol' days".

 

1. Need to form a group? Huge inconvenience. Probably one of the biggest hinderances of the genre.
2. Buffing. Stupid mechanic, imo. Needlessly creates dependencies. Long term buffs should be permanent (meaning no long term buffs) and buffs more tactical in general. All removable by offensive abilites ofcourse.
3. See number 1.
4. Meaningful is entirely subjective. I don't find any meaning in fighting over a virtual castle. It is pointless. I'd much rather play for ladder rankings and tournaments.

 

And here he is as usual on queue.

Go play console games...really, because everything you talk about are console game qualities. MMORPG's and console games are a different genre for a reason. Every damn thread that dares say something about games that take time, thinking, or interaction you are sure to jump on. If you don't like the topic...move on and don't reply with your usual garbble of  anti-MMORPG whine.

I sure don't enjoy being able to get to level cap in a month or less (Without really trying), being able to solo almost everything and not have to talk to another person, have quest NPC's marked with ridiculously large "!" and the accompanying quest being 10 feet away and able to complete in a few minutes for some reward you've already out leveld the use of, etc, etc, etc.....

But I don't find EVERY thread someone is talking about those kinds, or talking about things they enjoy in them, or miss from a particular one that is closed down because everyone got bored of it and the population fell off after 6 months or less and do what you do. Just stop already.

Why do you come to this site or play MMORPG's if you don't like them as they were intended. Again...there is a reason they are a seperate genre. I have a full time job and responsibilities, but I still play Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, which isn't instant gratification, etc. I find or make the time. I take it at the pace I can enjoy it and progress. If you can't find the time, then maybe it's time to stop playing MMORPG's.

And I know this will probably get me a warning or ban, but cripes...enough is enough.

Like I told the other poster and the OP. None of the things Quirhid are rallying against on his list responding to the OP existed in UO, so maybe he's not looking for another version of EQ? All I see are mechanics listed that led us to this point in the first place. Only difference is that those games that feature those tired concepts are still alive and kickin. It's time for a new direction.

It's like asking someone to make something different after serving you cake for the last 20 years. So they reach into the cupboard and take out all the ingredients they are use to working with and in the end add strawberries. Then they serve it to you and upon first bite you exclaim. Hey this is cake again, only with strawberries! They look at you perplexed because they technically did make something different this time and you facepalm stating that maybe they should work with different core ingredients next time around. And politely tell them for instance if they have an idea in their head to make pie don't start with ingredients used to make a freakin cake.

I get what you are saying, but I am also not advocating it has to be just like EQ. It's fine to add some features to make certain things easier. But not to the extent it isn't even recongnizable as an MMORPG anymore.

Originally posted by remyburke

Mostly?

 The endless free time and zero responsibility it took to play them to their fullest extent.

this needs quoting.

The golden age for me was a bit personal, during the time that I don't need to do anything but sit and play plus with the perfect timing of awesome games. soo. there. Purely for enjoyment.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Reply to the topic: Less whine about the "good ol' days".

 Reply to Response: I never played these games, but I was 11 when they came out, so therefore an expert on everything.

1. Need to form a group? Huge inconvenience. Probably one of the biggest hinderances of the genre.

Yes, the genre was really hindered as it exploded 1000 fold in popularity with the addition of group and raid-centric games.

1. Buffing. Stupid mechanic, imo. Needlessly creates dependencies. Long term buffs should be permanent (meaning no long term buffs) and buffs more tactical in general. All removable by offensive abilites ofcourse.

Basically, just a re-hashing of his first comment. All people should be able to do everything in the game.  MMO's should be like Pac-Man, no one should rely or talk to another person.... maybe Pokemon so you could trade, but definitely no teamwork or communication.

1. See number 1.

And not understand it.

1. Meaningful is entirely subjective. I don't find any meaning in fighting over a virtual castle. It is pointless. I'd much rather play for ladder rankings and tournaments.

 It's meaningful in the context of the game world...but since you're just playing single player games with an auction house, I could see how the appeal is lost on you.  When you play single player games, do you crow to the NPC's about how you are ranked #1 on the server?

Player interdependency and community were a large part of it.

In games where you could not do everything for yourself, the community sorted itself out quite well, especially in games with heavy crafting.

In SWG for example, many people who played that game in the original incarnation often commented about how the community was very mature/helpful and that there were not as many d-bag players compared to other games. That was because, there were fewer ahole players, because people relaized that if you tried to do the normal BS things like kill stealing / ninja looting or some of the obnoxious obscene PvP behavior, word got around.  And once word got around that you were a jerk, it was a lot harder to get people to help you in turn, so people either behaved, or left when they saw the penalties for being a tool.

There was a case I recall from the server I was on of a simulated RP rape of a unconcious female toon. It was obscene, in very poor taste, and went way over the line. Well, the official complaits yielded not much, so word got around to the major crafters and crafting guilds for no one to do business with any of the named players or the guild that did it.  After a week, the guild and all those players were gone from the game or server, because they couldn't get anything from any of the crafters and were largely banned from shops server wide. That is what a strong community can do.

Now, games are filled will aholes and jerks of every stripe, and since everything is mostly soloable these days, there is nothing to keep bad behavior in check. People can do anything/everything for themselves so they can go off the rails with no penalty.

As I think about it, it also because virtual game worlds are not made any more, like SWG, UO, or even early EQ. Now you just get the disposable "themepark of the month" with no longevity.

And that is another thing that hurts the in game communities: when people know they will only be playing a game for a few months, they don't care as much about anything.

In games like UO/SWG, people knew they could or would be playing for years so they became much more invested in things, in many respects.

1.  Longevity.    People played EQ, DAOC, AC, UO for YEARS.  Well, yes, I did play WoW for  a long time and I did make friends there....which is mainly why I played it a long time.    Today it seems games are played for a month and  then it's time to pick up the new flavor, because you've seen it all and want something new, and you haven't found any community.    I will guess  that the vast majority today play MMOs as if they were console games, as has been said, and so the play duration is similar.   Heck, I played Skyrim for three or four months.   It was way better than most of the new MMOs.

2. Enjoyment factor.    Don't tell me that I had a different experience, say, in EQ because it was new.   Yeah, the first month it was new.   After 3 years or so, don't think that comment really applies.

3.  Caring about other people.   The business of doing stuff with people but not really interacting with them at all is so discouraging.    Let's all help each other to  not care about each other.

4. Community.  Some stuff tends to encourage community, some stuff doesn't.   Sure  you can have great community in any MMO.    But when it's a lot more work, and there doesn't seem to be any good reason for, it will tend not to happen.    The devs cater to the masses, of course.    Same reason most movies are repeats of garbage.    In the Golden Age there was a scramble to be innovative, imo.   Now there is a scramble to make a little more slick version of the same thing.

Originally posted by Burntvet

Player interdependency and community were a large part of it.

In games where you could not do everything for yourself, the community sorted itself out quite well, especially in games with heavy crafting.

In SWG for example, many people who played that game in the original incarnation often commented about how the community was very mature/helpful and that there were not as many d-bag players compared to other games. That was because, there were fewer ahole players, because people relaized that if you tried to do the normal BS things like kill stealing / ninja looting or some of the obnoxious obscene PvP behavior, word got around.  And once word got around that you were a jerk, it was a lot harder to get people to help you in turn, so people either behaved, or left when they saw the penalties for being a tool.

There was a case I recall from the server I was on of a simulated RP rape of a unconcious female toon. It was obscene, in very poor taste, and went way over the line. Well, the official complaits yielded not much, so word got around to the major crafters and crafting guilds for no one to do business with any of the named players or the guild that did it.  After a week, the guild and all those players were gone from the game or server, because they couldn't get anything from any of the crafters and were largely banned from shops server wide. That is what a strong community can do.

 

Now, games are filled will aholes and jerks of every stripe, and since everything is mostly soloable these days, there is nothing to keep bad behavior in check. People can do anything/everything for themselves so they can go off the rails with no penalty.

 

As I think about it, it also because virtual game worlds are not made any more, like SWG, UO, or even early EQ. Now you just get the disposable "themepark of the month" with no longevity.

And that is another thing that hurts the in game communities: when people know they will only be playing a game for a few months, they don't care as much about anything.

In games like UO/SWG, people knew they could or would be playing for years so they became much more invested in things, in many respects.

 

*Ding*

Things I missed the most:

• Huge open, seemless world with no instancing
• Epic, detailed, majestic and long-time consuming quests (things that took 3-4 hours to finish and spaned multiple dungeons).
• The ability to take on huge swaths of enemies, none of this nimbly-pimbly 2-3 mobs is to much and you will die bullshit.  I want to tackle 20+ mobs and come out drained and rewarded.
• Economies based on actually playing the game and getting lucky by finding a super rare item to sell to another player.
• NO BIND ON EQUIP or BIND ON AQUIRE  crap.  Wear something for a few months, get bored of the looks and sell it to someone else.
• only 3-4 distintive looks, I miss having an ungodly amount of cosmetic appeareance items.  Instead of say 7 endgame armors for GW2, imagine if it had 300+ armor suits.  Yea that shit is epic.