The games that retained me the longest simply dont exist anymore.

CoX was an on again off again love for me. I had a solid 3 years in 8 of paid played time

WoW.... until TBC i was a diehard. once my guild was destroyed by the removal of the 40 man raid system and i went casual. I lost my love in TBC and dropped for a long while. I tried again in WotLK but... it was just so easy. I didnt need to rely on my guild for anything, i barely had to keep an eye open to raid. Everything just felt so rehashed. So I quit.

CoX and Vanilla WoW don't exist for me. =(

WAR almost kept me. I could deal with class imba. that was fine.... it was each server having a 'winner' and a loser' with no 3rd faction to balance.... it went downhill so fast i could barely blink.  I even switched factions on my server to try and help (my server had a very fierce but friendly rivalry) being able to zap my former guildmates was amusing (while telling them i was doing so in vent =P )  but .... the overwhelming crush every single day with no honest means of winning just lost me.

i apparently want a 3 faction superhero grinder where only 5% see endgame =P  guess im SoL  >_<

I can't be the only one who realizes that MMOs were *NEVER* virtual worlds, they have always been level-driven treadmills, the whole point of logging on is to get XP and get gear and get weapons to kill things.  That's the point and purpose of an MMO, it always has been and always will be.  There is a point in every game when you've essentially won, you hit end-game, there is no more real progression, it's just a different type of treadmill.  I don't consider any game where you have a goal, in this case progression, to be a virtual world.

To me, a virtual world is like one of the old-time text-based social MU*s.  There was no game-controlled combat.  There were no levels.  There was no gear, no weapons, no killing.  There was no point to being there.  The point was whatever you made of it.  If you wanted to get into a fight with someone, you both just typed out what you did and you came to a mutual decision who won.  It was 100% virtual world, 100% roleplaying because you could do absolutely anything you wanted to do.  People stayed in those games for years and years on end.  My longest was 16 years with *ONE SINGLE CHARACTER*.  You lived a virtual life because that's all there was to do!

Those days are  gone and aren't coming back and certainly, MMOs were never meant to take their place. 

Part of the answer is in the question, regardless of the state of today's games. Even if your perfect game released, the ultimate end-stop game tailored just for your needs and desires, you would get tired of it within a shorter time-span than before. Why? Because you already know the in's and out's of these kinds of games. You've seen it all. Even a game with insane innovation would have to follow certian recipes and base-rules that all MMO's share. These "new innovative features" are quickly played through, leaving you with the same kind of base game that you've always played. Even if your favorite game of all time re-launched with up-to-date graphics and top-notch features, you'd play through it quicker and get burned out faster.

It doesn't matter what kind of activity/hobby we talk about. After some time it's not the same anymore and you can never go back. It can never be "your first true MMO experience" all over again. Your best bet is to hit your head hard enough to produce a complete memory wipe, then start playing MMO's (the trick is to survive and not damage anything important).

Take any experience in your life as an example, then evaluate if doing it a second time would be/was just as cool as the first time you did it.

This is the exact reason why i feel sorry for game developers these days. They have to live up to unreal expectations based on millions of individuals personal experiences of when they lost their virginity. It's an impossible task.

tldr; You're getting old.

Originally posted by ezpz77

Originally posted by Boneserino

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Something that bugs me: If you love the old games so much, why don't you go back and play those games, instead of lining up to buy the next "shallow, cash grab" like everyone else? Don't you think you are kinda being hypocritical by saying how amazing those games in the past were, and then saying the recent games are shit, but then you go and buy those new games anyways? Wouldn't you be able to send the message that "you don't want these new shallow cash grabs" by not buying them in the first place much more effectively?

These are MMOs, so even the really old ones would still have some people watching over them to some degree. I'd figure they would notice your preferences better if you actually stuck to the game you said was superior, rather than proclaiming it while playing one of the "cash grabs." Just saying.

Cmon Enigma, you know the answer to that.

  If he went back and played the old games he would realize they are just the same as the new games and that would blow the whole illusion, leaving him with nothing to whine about.

 

You pretty much nailed it, and it explains a lot of posts on MMORPG.com. People constantly reminisce about the golden era of MMO's when things took forever to accomplish, everything you did was bogged down by overtly stupid mechanics, and the games were "worlds" instead of lobbies or some equally nebulous complaint.

It's sad. It's like reading the memoirs of an old man who refused to change with or accept the times, and as a result remained in a perpetual state of disappointment and pessimism. When the genre shows signs of moving in a different directon, which it does, people continue to complain that it's not moving fast enough or the new direction isn't backwards enough.

Over a decade has passed since that "golden era" of MMOs. Teenagers and adults once enthralled by these games are now jaded and burned out. Despite knowing that they don't enjoy the genre as it is, they refuse to move on. They still go out and buy the most recent MMO instead of going back to a game they know they'll enjoy. It boggles my mind that people would willingly stick around and spend money on something they proclaim to dislike and, at the same time, stop supporting the games that they truly did like.

Nah, I voice my opinion all the time and continue to play the old games.

It also isn't a refusal of change either. It is not accepting change that isn't for the better. UI improvements have been made. Game mechanics have often been dumber down and destroyed into a LCD boring machine. There is no excitement or challenge in games anymore because we now teach newer generations that you shouldn't have to fail and let's not keep score so you don't feel bad.

Now when you die in a game, nothing really happens. You just continue on your way. In fact I've used deaths as a form of quick travel in several newer MMOs (sad part is when trying to die it still takes a while). Why explore when you can have a game that marks everything on the map and tells you the path to travel?

The true problem that most won't accept is that there are several different MMO groups. However, companies treat the MMO community as just one group with one set of preferences. So the same game targetting the same group keeps getting made over and over and over. No one has stopped to realize there are other groups as well. A proper, and most successful market, would have big name games for each type of group. We are missing that so there is a lot of division. Those who like it and say "you just don't like change" and those who see that no one is making games for them.

So yes, there are those of us who still play the old games and support what we like (why do you think all of those old games are still running? If no one was supporting them, they wouldn't be here). But there are a group of people who won't play the old ones, don't like the new ones, and demand they make new ones like the old ones without speaking with their wallets.

Originally posted by Cephus404

I can't be the only one who realizes that MMOs were *NEVER* virtual worlds, they have always been level-driven treadmills, the whole point of logging on is to get XP and get gear and get weapons to kill things.  That's the point and purpose of an MMO, it always has been and always will be.  There is a point in every game when you've essentially won, you hit end-game, there is no more real progression, it's just a different type of treadmill.  I don't consider any game where you have a goal, in this case progression, to be a virtual world.

To me, a virtual world is like one of the old-time text-based social MU*s.  There was no game-controlled combat.  There were no levels.  There was no gear, no weapons, no killing.  There was no point to being there.  The point was whatever you made of it.  If you wanted to get into a fight with someone, you both just typed out what you did and you came to a mutual decision who won.  It was 100% virtual world, 100% roleplaying because you could do absolutely anything you wanted to do.  People stayed in those games for years and years on end.  My longest was 16 years with *ONE SINGLE CHARACTER*.  You lived a virtual life because that's all there was to do!

Those days are  gone and aren't coming back and certainly, MMOs were never meant to take their place. 

This is right on.

Games are not about virtual worlds. They are about deriving pleasure (i.e. FUN) from rewards .. whehter you are getting gear, power (abilities), or see more of the stories.

I play it as such. I don't want a virtual world. There is already a real one. I want entertainment.

Neither.

A lot of the fun of playing those early MMOs or even those early video games was that they were a brand new thing and we were constantly exposed to things we hadn't seen or done before.

Hell, I remember parties where people were lined-up 20 deep to play pong. This had nothing to do with the quality of pong nor our youth, it was simply the novelty of interacting with the TV.

MMOs today are all infinitely more sophisticated, entertaining and better programmed than those of 15 years ago. What they lack is the "Wow!" factor of something that is unique and brand new. Changes are now incrementakl and refinements on the things we have all seen 100 times before.

MMOs now are mainstream entertainment and if you're going to play them its because you enjoy this now mature genre. if you expect a new title to feel as fresh and exciting as the first ones you played back when the genre was being invented, you're just setting yourself up for dissapointment.

Originally posted by Iselin

Neither.

A lot of the fun of playing those early MMOs or even those early video games was that they were a brand new thing and we were constantly exposed to things we hadn't seen or done before.

Hell, I remember parties where people were lined-up 20 deep to play pong. This had nothing to do with the quality of pong nor our youth, it was simply the novelty of interacting with the TV.

MMOs today are all infinitely more sophisticated, entertaining and better programmed than those of 15 years ago. What they lack is the "Wow!" factor of something that is unique and brand new. Changes are now incrementakl and refinements on the things we have all seen 100 times before.

MMOs now are mainstream entertainment and if you're going to play them its because you enjoy this now mature genre. if you expect a new title to feel as fresh and exciting as the first ones you played back when the genre was being invented, you're just setting yourself up for dissapointment.

 

I don't think that is correct at all.

There are several genres of games that I like. One example if FPS. There are still occasional new FPS games that I find very enjoying and can play them for hours on end over and over again. I started the FPS genre with Doom and played all the classics when they were new, like Quake, Half-Life, Counter Strike, Battlefield, etc. I don't hate new ones because they aren't the first ones I played. I like new ones that do it right and make a quality game. Yet at the same time the ones that I think of as being the best over the years (which is very similar to that list of classics I mentioned) are the ones who did go down their own path and make the game unique.

Yet when it comes to the MMO genre, a genre I like even more than the FPS genre which I love, the past several years have been a massive disappointment. Again this has nothing to do with the games not being the first ones I played. I started with The Realm and continued on through UO, AC, EQ, DAoC, EQ2, AO, WoW etc. The FPS genre keeps breaking sales records each year, the MMO market does not.

If the whole reasoning was that you only like the first ones you played, I wouldn't have enjoyed so many different MMOs over the span of many years. That argument falls apart instantly. I enjoyed the realm and UO and AC, DAoC, AO, and even WoW for a couple of months (I never found EQ to be my taste)..

The reason I enjoyed so many MMOs over the years is that they approach things in their own way, made things unique to them. However for the past 6 years or so they've done nothing but try to clone what already exists as the "main" model, the WoW model. The games feel boring in minutes. They offer nothing knew. They don't have a fresh voice, or interesting stories. The classes aren't fun. It is just the same exact game as you played before, and before, and before. That is a boring terrible situation.

And it isn't just a few gamers. It is rare for an MMO released in the past few years to get their investment back. That is because the majority see through the boring same game as the last and quit the game's instantly. Within the first couple months new MMOs have a tiny fraction of the players they did at launch. That isn't good, that isn't a sign of quality.

In the end the reason is simply. Companies aren't putting out good products.

It isn't the first time in gaming history this happened. It happened with Atari games and destroyed the system along with gamers views of game companies for a while. It happens in the movies when an action flick set in Europe gets big money and so then 10 more studios all crank out copy cat action flicks in Europe. Audiences get bored, sales go down, companies lose money.

Eventually it should get better for two reasons. 1) It won't look like an easy money genre anymore so fewer companies will be putting out games and 2) those who keep putting them out will learn they need to change things up.

Originally posted by Boneserino

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Something that bugs me: If you love the old games so much, why don't you go back and play those games, instead of lining up to buy the next "shallow, cash grab" like everyone else? Don't you think you are kinda being hypocritical by saying how amazing those games in the past were, and then saying the recent games are shit, but then you go and buy those new games anyways? Wouldn't you be able to send the message that "you don't want these new shallow cash grabs" by not buying them in the first place much more effectively?

These are MMOs, so even the really old ones would still have some people watching over them to some degree. I'd figure they would notice your preferences better if you actually stuck to the game you said was superior, rather than proclaiming it while playing one of the "cash grabs." Just saying.

Cmon Enigma, you know the answer to that.

  If he went back and played the old games he would realize they are just the same as the new games and that would blow the whole illusion, leaving him with nothing to whine about.

Not true...most of those old games that many reference, when speaking of the MMO glory days, do not exist in the form that they did.

Ultima Online, EQ1, Star Wars Galaxies, and Lineage 2 were all good sandbox / hybrid games that focuses on virutal worlds that either no longer exist in the way they once did, or are no longer operational.

Most of these games changed to adapt to the competition that emerged with mainstream / pop MMOs...primarily WOW and its gear centric linear progression model.

Originally posted by Iselin

MMOs now are mainstream entertainment and if you're going to play them its because you enjoy this now mature genre. if you expect a new title to feel as fresh and exciting as the first ones you played back when the genre was being invented, you're just setting yourself up for dissapointment.

 

This ^^^

I enjoy MMOs as they are now. Some are actually pretty good SP and small group co-op games.

Although I'm 23, I too am finding it harder and harder to get excited about future video game releases. I've pretty much moved into the realm of table top games and card games again to ease the pain, and I've given up on video games.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Iselin

Neither.

A lot of the fun of playing those early MMOs or even those early video games was that they were a brand new thing and we were constantly exposed to things we hadn't seen or done before.

Hell, I remember parties where people were lined-up 20 deep to play pong. This had nothing to do with the quality of pong nor our youth, it was simply the novelty of interacting with the TV.

MMOs today are all infinitely more sophisticated, entertaining and better programmed than those of 15 years ago. What they lack is the "Wow!" factor of something that is unique and brand new. Changes are now incrementakl and refinements on the things we have all seen 100 times before.

MMOs now are mainstream entertainment and if you're going to play them its because you enjoy this now mature genre. if you expect a new title to feel as fresh and exciting as the first ones you played back when the genre was being invented, you're just setting yourself up for dissapointment.

 

I don't think that is correct at all.

There are several genres of games that I like. One example if FPS. There are still occasional new FPS games that I find very enjoying and can play them for hours on end over and over again. I started the FPS genre with Doom and played all the classics when they were new, like Quake, Half-Life, Counter Strike, Battlefield, etc. I don't hate new ones because they aren't the first ones I played. I like new ones that do it right and make a quality game. Yet at the same time the ones that I think of as being the best over the years (which is very similar to that list of classics I mentioned) are the ones who did go down their own path and make the game unique.

Yet when it comes to the MMO genre, a genre I like even more than the FPS genre which I love, the past several years have been a massive disappointment. Again this has nothing to do with the games not being the first ones I played. I started with The Realm and continued on through UO, AC, EQ, DAoC, EQ2, AO, WoW etc. The FPS genre keeps breaking sales records each year, the MMO market does not.

If the whole reasoning was that you only like the first ones you played, I wouldn't have enjoyed so many different MMOs over the span of many years. That argument falls apart instantly. I enjoyed the realm and UO and AC, DAoC, AO, and even WoW for a couple of months (I never found EQ to be my taste)..

The reason I enjoyed so many MMOs over the years is that they approach things in their own way, made things unique to them. However for the past 6 years or so they've done nothing but try to clone what already exists as the "main" model, the WoW model. The games feel boring in minutes. They offer nothing knew. They don't have a fresh voice, or interesting stories. The classes aren't fun. It is just the same exact game as you played before, and before, and before. That is a boring terrible situation.

And it isn't just a few gamers. It is rare for an MMO released in the past few years to get their investment back. That is because the majority see through the boring same game as the last and quit the game's instantly. Within the first couple months new MMOs have a tiny fraction of the players they did at launch. That isn't good, that isn't a sign of quality.

 

 

In the end the reason is simply. Companies aren't putting out good products.

It isn't the first time in gaming history this happened. It happened with Atari games and destroyed the system along with gamers views of game companies for a while. It happens in the movies when an action flick set in Europe gets big money and so then 10 more studios all crank out copy cat action flicks in Europe. Audiences get bored, sales go down, companies lose money.

Eventually it should get better for two reasons. 1) It won't look like an easy money genre anymore so fewer companies will be putting out games and 2) those who keep putting them out will learn they need to change things up.

 

Well said, that saves me minutes trying to write that.

I feel your pain.  I still have my notebook of hand made maps from years of EQ before ingame maps were available.  *sighs*

What fun that was.

Originally posted by Monamia222

I feel your pain.  I still have my notebook of hand made maps from years of EQ before ingame maps were available.  *sighs*

What fun that was.

Not fun at all.

I still have the grid map from Might & Magic (yes, the first one). Mapping is trivial, with little challenge and basically a chore. That is not why i play a game.

Maybe MMO developers have come to realize that it is impossible to please the "old school vets"...so why try. Instead, their focus is on obtaining NEW players and keeping their current happy players happy. These new and current players aren't looking for a an MMO made in the good old days. They are lokking for and accustomed to the modern MMO. Thus, the development dollars go into these games at the expense of creating a game with old-school features that people on these forum claim they crave.

Originally posted by ezpz77

I hate MMORPG analogies... especially food analogies, but I'm going to use one anyways. If I enjoy an older, more rustic version of Shepard's Pie, I'm going to eat that one. I'm not going to go out and buy up every single modern version of it and expect it to suit my tastes.

To continue your hated analogy... we can't have our rustic version of shepard's pie anymore because the recipe has long since been changed.  The resturant may still exist but the food is different.

Not to mention, even though shepard's pie maybe my favorite meal, I'm not going to eat it every day for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Also just because you have a favorite meal does not mean you stop trying new things.  You may not like most of the new things you try but you don't give up.

op come back to ac.  i did and am loving every minute of it. 

also when you subscribe to ac you get to play ac2 in beta.  that is right, they brought back ac2, right now it is in a beta stage so it is not as stable as one would like, but it is playable and its wrapped up into your ac1 sub.  ac to me is still the best game around currently.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Iselin

Neither.

A lot of the fun of playing those early MMOs or even those early video games was that they were a brand new thing and we were constantly exposed to things we hadn't seen or done before.

Hell, I remember parties where people were lined-up 20 deep to play pong. This had nothing to do with the quality of pong nor our youth, it was simply the novelty of interacting with the TV.

MMOs today are all infinitely more sophisticated, entertaining and better programmed than those of 15 years ago. What they lack is the "Wow!" factor of something that is unique and brand new. Changes are now incrementakl and refinements on the things we have all seen 100 times before.

MMOs now are mainstream entertainment and if you're going to play them its because you enjoy this now mature genre. if you expect a new title to feel as fresh and exciting as the first ones you played back when the genre was being invented, you're just setting yourself up for dissapointment.

 

I don't think that is correct at all.

There are several genres of games that I like. One example if FPS. There are still occasional new FPS games that I find very enjoying and can play them for hours on end over and over again. I started the FPS genre with Doom and played all the classics when they were new, like Quake, Half-Life, Counter Strike, Battlefield, etc. I don't hate new ones because they aren't the first ones I played. I like new ones that do it right and make a quality game. Yet at the same time the ones that I think of as being the best over the years (which is very similar to that list of classics I mentioned) are the ones who did go down their own path and make the game unique.

Yet when it comes to the MMO genre, a genre I like even more than the FPS genre which I love, the past several years have been a massive disappointment. Again this has nothing to do with the games not being the first ones I played. I started with The Realm and continued on through UO, AC, EQ, DAoC, EQ2, AO, WoW etc. The FPS genre keeps breaking sales records each year, the MMO market does not.   Ever consider the simple explanation for this? FPS = cross-platform PC + Consoles, MMOs: PC only.... Walked into an Electronic Boutique lately? Noticed what has happened to the PC section compared to what it looked like 10 years ago?

If the whole reasoning was that you only like the first ones you played, I wouldn't have enjoyed so many different MMOs over the span of many years. That argument falls apart instantly. I enjoyed the realm and UO and AC, DAoC, AO, and even WoW for a couple of months (I never found EQ to be my taste)..

The reason I enjoyed so many MMOs over the years is that they approach things in their own way, made things unique to them. However for the past 6 years or so they've done nothing but try to clone what already exists as the "main" model, the WoW model. The games feel boring in minutes. They offer nothing knew. They don't have a fresh voice, or interesting stories. The classes aren't fun. It is just the same exact game as you played before, and before, and before. That is a boring terrible situation.  The classes, environment, interface, mechanics and anything else I care to compare in GW2, Rift and TSW--to name just a few recent ones--are infinitely superior to anything in Asheron's Call. But AC was undeniably much more original... simply because it was just the 2nd 3-D MMO ever... Birth of a Nation was praised for decades as the first great American film. It was very innovative for 1915 and DW Griffith was universally praised as a film genius... but today I wouldn't waste any of my time on that racist POS. Christ, even something like Rocky 12 would be much more entertaining.

And it isn't just a few gamers. It is rare for an MMO released in the past few years to get their investment back. That is because the majority see through the boring same game as the last and quit the game's instantly. Within the first couple months new MMOs have a tiny fraction of the players they did at launch. That isn't good, that isn't a sign of quality. Once again, consider the simple answer: competition in a crowded, maybe even over-saturated, market is a bitch.

 

 

In the end the reason is simply. Companies aren't putting out good products.

It isn't the first time in gaming history this happened. It happened with Atari games and destroyed the system along with gamers views of game companies for a while. It happens in the movies when an action flick set in Europe gets big money and so then 10 more studios all crank out copy cat action flicks in Europe. Audiences get bored, sales go down, companies lose money. I don't know how old you are and what you've read, but I was there and I don't remember anything like what you're describing. Atari consoles, begat Intellivision and Sega... which in turn begat Nintendo, Playstaion and X-box.... I see nothing but a steady incremental series of advances. I have no idea what you're talking about. Atari itself as a company had it's ups and downs and never recovered after Nolan Bushnell left and founded Chuck E Cheese. In a way it was similar to what happened when Jobs left Apple, except Jobs came back but Bushnell never did.

Eventually it should get better for two reasons. 1) It won't look like an easy money genre anymore so fewer companies will be putting out games and 2) those who keep putting them out will learn they need to change things up.

 

I get that you like old stuff better---that's your choice. Many people get stuck in time. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that your preference has anything to do with such melodramatic concepts as "betrayal" or that the quality was better...it wasn't, it was just new.

There are many, many games from the early 80s I still remember fondly: Chris Crawford's Eastern Front, Dan Bunten's Mule, the original Civilization, Ultima, etc.... they were awesome because they were fresh, new and different... but so was the first wheel and using vegetation to wipe your butt.

Personally, I prefer my 2012 Honda and Charmin Ultra-soft

Originally posted by Psychow

Maybe MMO developers have come to realize that it is impossible to please the "old school vets"...so why try. Instead, their focus is on obtaining NEW players and keeping their current happy players happy. These new and current players aren't looking for a an MMO made in the good old days. They are lokking for and accustomed to the modern MMO. Thus, the development dollars go into these games at the expense of creating a game with old-school features that people on these forum claim they crave.

 

That's because so many "old school vets" don't live in the same reality with the rest of us.  They want this to be 1999.  They have this fanciful image in their heads that "old school games" were magical and made just for them.  They don't understand, or refuse to understand, that old game developers made games the same way then that they do now:  to make money.  However, the world has changed and what makes money today isn't the same as what made money then.

People either need to move on and keep up with reality or just go find something else to do.  MMOs will never, and should never, go back to the "good old days".

i play games from 1992

played wolfstein 3d

ace of the pacific

monkey island

and all star wars and many many others

back in those days was crap games too BUT back days wasnt so many to choose from, i remember i play 1-2 game the whole year

now i dont have the time to play what i like, and adding the MMOs that need huge amount of time, many games i wanna play i just have them and hoping to find time someday to play them