Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by xaithian

The lack of appreciation for the talent of good game developers in these forums is just mind boggling.

Originally posted by xaithian

     Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  

Not every indie game is great though, so you aren't really saying much.  I have played Miner Wars and WarZ lately, and they have been sh*t.  I don't waste money on Indie games any more and have given up vistiing the Kickstart site and wasating my time there.

Originally posted by dotdotdash

Originally posted by StoneRoses
Finally someone with some balls to call players out!

The players are just as responsible always laying the blame on developers.

But hey, we are the consumers aka customers so were always right,... right?
 

What exactly are players "responsible" for?

The developers are the people that make the games. They are the people that do the research into what we as consumers want from them. They are tasked with anticipating and catering to our needs, just like any product developer out there. When the developer gets it wrong, and consumers voice their opinions to that effect, it can only be the developers who are to blame.

I realise that being emo is cool, but I'm really failing to see precisely why I as a consumer should be metaphorically (or literally) self harming myself here?

Instead of just bashing the drum lid for your own amusement, why don't you actually put a credible argument forward? :)

I actually have in many of my previous post! Do I dare continue to point out the obvious or do you really need graphs, pie charts, and logic?

Originally posted by Scottgun

Actually, from the "33 1/3 Rules of Rock n' Roll" , rule number 25 easily applies to mmorpgs:

 

25. Cult artists are frequently just as boring and predictable as mainstream ones.

^

Most of the time indie games aren't any better or more interesting than AAA titles, people are just more impressed that a small, probably inexperienced company managed to make something that didn't completely suck. It's cheering for the underdog, just another kind of mob mentality, except the danger of this one is it makes you feel good about yourself.

Originally posted by dotdotdash

In the MMO space, only a handful of indie developers have managed to pull off anything resembling a good game. "The little guy" has given us (barely) games like Mortal Online and Darkfall, two of the worst MMOs I've ever played. CCP is perhaps the only indie developer in the MMO space worth its weight by any margin. Certainly the best MMOs right now are the ones coming out of the big developers (which is more a damning criticism of the MMO genre as a whole than it is a praise of big publishers).

So yeah... you don't really have a point.

+1 for truth. Proper mmorpg's are massive undertakings in ways that other genres aren't. I can depend on the local dinner theater to pull off an enjoyable production of A Funny Thing Happened on the way to the Forum. I can't expect them to pull off Wagner's Ring Cycle that won't have an audience tripping over themselves to leave as if the building was on fire. You need a big house, A-list talent, a whole battalion of behind-the-scenes people, and a director with his head screwed on right. There are exceptions of course, but not the rule.

Originally posted by xaithian

     Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  And they are not created overnight, be either of the two.  If you look you will find many "indie" games created all the time.  Many titles are created and spawn all the time.  So if you want companies to stop making crappy games start supporting the little guy.

     Or go back to school and learn to program or texture or create 3D models or write stories or quote literature.'

     The more new hyped titles you buy the more they will make and that will never change.  Kind of like global warming, every fart heats the planet.

I absolutely agree.

The market gets what the market asks for. If you do not help show that there is a demand for what you want as a player then how can anyone get upset that no one is making it? Support your chosen sub genre with your dollar, mouthing off on message boards does nothing. Looking for continous reasons to not support indie grass development hurts no one else but you in the long run. You are not entitled to a dev taking a risk in providing a game that you have done nothing to support.

When an indie dev can sell me an entire fun game for less than the cost of a single mount in a typical cash shop I have to wonder why more people are not looking at them.

Ofc, the typical player wants indie risk taking and ground breaking alongside huge budget AAA production values and stability, which is pretty blind to the reality of things.

Originally posted by StoneRoses

Originally posted by dotdotdash

Originally posted by StoneRoses
Finally someone with some balls to call players out!

The players are just as responsible always laying the blame on developers.

But hey, we are the consumers aka customers so were always right,... right?
 

What exactly are players "responsible" for?

The developers are the people that make the games. They are the people that do the research into what we as consumers want from them. They are tasked with anticipating and catering to our needs, just like any product developer out there. When the developer gets it wrong, and consumers voice their opinions to that effect, it can only be the developers who are to blame.

I realise that being emo is cool, but I'm really failing to see precisely why I as a consumer should be metaphorically (or literally) self harming myself here?

Instead of just bashing the drum lid for your own amusement, why don't you actually put a credible argument forward? :)

I actually have in many of my previous post! Do I dare continue to point out the obvious or do you really need graphs, pie charts, and logic?

There's nothing logical about what you are saying, at all.

If your radio isn't picking up FM signals because the FM transmitter is broken, it is not the fault of the radio. The radio has done nothing wrong. The FM transmitter is sending out the wrong signals, and thus the radio is not picking anything up. Would you have me throw the radio out and buy a new one on the provision that the radio should take AT LEAST some of the responsibility for the broken transmitter?

When a developer releases a game, they are doing so on the back of a ton of research they've done into market conditions. One of the things good product developers do is look at trends, such as how consumers are spending their money, on what products they are spending their money, and - here's the kickers - how consumers have reacted to SIMILAR products in the past. If the product developer sees one product that has sold a billion units, and then looks at other similar products that have failed to gain any traction... they shouldn't be going "oh look... that ONE product out of TWENTY similar products has sold a billion units, so we can sell a billion units!"

The iPhone is a great example of product development based on an assumption of need, where there was no overt evidence to suggest the product would work at market. There was little to no evidence to suggest that consumers needed or wanted the iPhone, and similar products that had been played out on the market in the past had failed to gain ANY traction. Yet Apple created the iPhone, it sold like proverbial hot cakes, and it spawned an entirely NEW segment of the IT market in mobile computing.

All of the failures in the space are ENTIRELY the fault of the developers and designers that pushed them to market. They are a product of poor decision making, poor research, poor product development, poor marketing, and a whole wealth of other "poor" things that could and should have been done better. The developers and designers FAILED to anticipate the needs and desires of the market, and consumers reacted accordingly.

Blaming consumers based on consumption for example (which is what you are seemingly suggesting with your silly "graphs and pie charts", and flawed logic) simply highlights how little you actually know about product development and design.

As I said... you don't actually have a point.

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by xaithian

     Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  

Great brain surgery is performed by people who need brain surgery.... great football is played by the Budwiser swilling football fans... great books are written by people who read lots of books... great singers come from people who watch American Iidol...

See how idiotic that is?

The lack of appreciation for the talent of good game developers in these forums is just mind boggling.

Love this.

+1

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by xaithian

     Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  And they are not created overnight, be either of the two.  If you look you will find many "indie" games created all the time.  Many titles are created and spawn all the time.  So if you want companies to stop making crappy games start supporting the little guy.

     Or go back to school and learn to program or texture or create 3D models or write stories or quote literature.'

     The more new hyped titles you buy the more they will make and that will never change.  Kind of like global warming, every fart heats the planet.

 

I absolutely agree.

The market gets what the market asks for. If you do not help show that there is a demand for what you want as a player then how can anyone get upset that no one is making it? Support your chosen sub genre with your dollar, mouthing off on message boards does nothing. Looking for continous reasons to not support indie grass development hurts no one else but you in the long run. You are not entitled to a dev taking a risk in providing a game that you have done nothing to support.

 

When an indie dev can sell me an entire fun game for less than the cost of a single mount in a typical cash shop I have to wonder why more people are not looking at them.

 

Ofc, the typical player wants indie risk taking and ground breaking alongside huge budget AAA production values and stability, which is pretty blind to the reality of things.

The issue is many of the big studios started as indie games. Ever hear of a 'loss leader'? I think this is what is going on - they may not make much profit but hoping to get noticed by a big publisher or bought out buy one. It is one possibility.

The other is that indies don't have the overhead cost of established developers. That can be the difference.

Originally posted by xaithian

     Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  And they are not created overnight, be either of the two.  If you look you will find many "indie" games created all the time.  Many titles are created and spawn all the time.  So if you want companies to stop making crappy games start supporting the little guy.

     Or go back to school and learn to program or texture or create 3D models or write stories or quote literature.'

     The more new hyped titles you buy the more they will make and that will never change.  Kind of like global warming, every fart heats the planet.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/gaming/2012/11/08/video-game-sales-slide-october/1693517/

Video game sales slide for 11th straight month ....

Your argument is invalid.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by xaithian

     Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  

Great brain surgery is performed by people who need brain surgery.... great football is played by the Budwiser swilling football fans... great books are written by people who read lots of books... great singers come from people who watch American Iidol...

See how idiotic that is?

The lack of appreciation for the talent of good game developers in these forums is just mind boggling.

Love this.

+1

It wasn't all that great a response in all fairness, regardless as to the actual merits (or lack of) of the OP.

Oh and +1.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I guess eq and uo weren't great games

They weren't.

They botch the game part. Subsequent modern MMOs are MUCH better games. No more griefing. No more tank mage. No more housing ghetto. No more camping.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I guess eq and uo weren't great games

They weren't.

They botch the game part. Subsequent modern MMOs are MUCH better games. No more griefing. No more tank mage. No more housing ghetto. No more camping.

 

But games today lose an immense sense of attachment that players had with EQ, UO and even SWG.  Back then, those were worlds,  today you don't have much of a "world" where players thrive,  you have a game that people beat and complain about.

Even many of the best games leave much to be desired as they have little personal attachment.  GW2... you really have nothing to lose or gain by... well, doing anything.  In SWG you had politics, bounties, houses and land... resources...   with as little as gaming in general means overall for anything but entertainment , it means much less when theres no risk to your reward.

Originally posted by xaithian

     Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  And they are not created overnight, be either of the two.  If you look you will find many "indie" games created all the time.  Many titles are created and spawn all the time.  So if you want companies to stop making crappy games start supporting the little guy.

     Or go back to school and learn to program or texture or create 3D models or write stories or quote literature.'

     The more new hyped titles you buy the more they will make and that will never change.  Kind of like global warming, every fart heats the planet.

So how does my enjoyment of a wide variety of current games from all sorts of developers indicate I'm failing?

Oh, is it because I'm failing to hate every game no matter what?  I could try to be more like you I suppose, but I'd rather have fun and play all these games I have.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

modern MMOs are MUCH better games. No more griefing. No more tank mage. No more housing ghetto. No more camping.

 

i can't even fathom how one could conclude that. Why do you care what features others want to have in the game especially if it doesnt affect your pve on rails experience?

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I guess eq and uo weren't great games

They weren't.

They botch the game part. Subsequent modern MMOs are MUCH better games. No more griefing. No more tank mage. No more housing ghetto. No more camping.

 

But games today lose an immense sense of attachment that players had with EQ, UO and even SWG.  Back then, those were worlds,  today you don't have much of a "world" where players thrive,  you have a game that people beat and complain about.

 

Even many of the best games leave much to be desired as they have little personal attachment.  GW2... you really have nothing to lose or gain by... well, doing anything.  In SWG you had politics, bounties, houses and land... resources...   with as little as gaming in general means overall for anything but entertainment , it means much less when theres no risk to your reward.

"world' does not make better games. In fact, sometimes it gets in the way of fun. I remember the EQ 20 min boat ride .. that is a waste of my time and it is not fun.

As for attachment . it is a personal preference. I am sure there are those who are attached to their $20 WOW mount as much as you are attached to UO. And lastly, more attachment also does not always make a better game.

I have zero attachment to Dishonored (note not a MMO) but it is an AWESOME game (to me, and many others).

Originally posted by Aison2

Originally posted by nariusseldon

modern MMOs are MUCH better games. No more griefing. No more tank mage. No more housing ghetto. No more camping.

 

i can't even fathom how one could conclude that. Why do you care what features others want to have in the game especially if it doesnt affect your pve on rails experience?

"griefing" affect me. "tank mage" means there is no build diversity (unlike a game like D3 ... where there are many builds/varaitions for each class) .. hence affect me.

Camping obviously affect me a great deal. What are you talking about?

If you want another UO .. now that does not affect me ... but why shouldn't i voice what i like, just like you did?

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by xaithian

     Great games have always and will always be created by true gamers and fans.  Not big corporations.  

Great brain surgery is performed by people who need brain surgery.... great football is played by the Budwiser swilling football fans... great books are written by people who read lots of books... great singers come from people who watch American Iidol...

See how idiotic that is?

The lack of appreciation for the talent of good game developers in these forums is just mind boggling.

 

i think you just won the thread.  Nicely written.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Aison2

Originally posted by nariusseldon

modern MMOs are MUCH better games. No more griefing. No more tank mage. No more housing ghetto. No more camping.

 

i can't even fathom how one could conclude that. Why do you care what features others want to have in the game especially if it doesnt affect your pve on rails experience?

"griefing" affect me. "tank mage" means there is no build diversity (unlike a game like D3 ... where there are many builds/varaitions for each class) .. hence affect me.

Camping obviously affect me a great deal. What are you talking about?

If you want another UO .. now that does not affect me ... but why shouldn't i voice what i like, just like you did?

I explicitly marked what i reffered too because i understand your position on grieving but  the possibilty to tank as a mage says nothing about build diversity, tankmages mostly exist as a spec for single boss encounters in which case its an additional option and nothing that deminishes a players options

Lastly you didnt mention what you have against housing