Originally posted by stori11

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by stori11

This is just ludicrous. They have a kickstarter, with a goal of 1 milion dollars. Now knowing kickstarter it might go beyond that, if they are lucky they will end up with maybe 2x the amount of money they asked for. But its not enough, they want you to pay a subscription, starting in beta, purchase the game AND there will be micro transactions after release. I know the micro transactions and kickstarter are both optional, but bear with me. Than go look at their webside, clicky on investors. They are on top of it all looking for investors willing to give ATLEAST 100 thousand dollars in investment. What the fuck do they need all that money for? I can't help but feel like they are trying to milk people for money, before the game even comes out on top of it. Now I don't know anything about mmorpg development and what not, but this all looks least to say very suspicious.

 

Also their kickstarter bonuses and all that already to me looks like a shop with micro-transactions, except the products you purchase will come after a couple of years.

 

Also to the poster above, its not early enrollment, its beta. While they promised to have all the bugs ironed out before the paid beta, all the bugs they can iron out obviously, they do say that most features will be added during the beta and they will be using it to balance out the game. So that is not early enrollment, its a bug-free beta. But since it will be missing features it still is nothing more than beta.

MMO development can cost $100 million or more, so trying to raise $2 million dollars and get another $200K in some early subscriptions isn't really being too greedy.  If it takes 10 people 2 years to make a game at $70K per person that's $1.4 million, right off.  They want a staff twice that big, and they are buying middleware and they need to buy hardware as well.  If you could make Rift for $1 million everyone would do it.

Well as I said I know nothing about the [Edit: Financial] development of mmorpg's, but its all looking suspicious and worrying to me. But I guess that might change depending on how the subscriptions and micro transactions work in practice and how much they will cost.

Exactly the budget of this mmorpg is an order or so below. Here's an update on the cost of the Tech Demo for an inside view of how much dev costs and you can scale that up with the headcount and the number of months in dev (no big marketing budget remember for independent developers: Though Kickstarter has a wider reach is also a bonus):

A Busy Week for Goblinworks

So imagine a team of 50< developers or so working over 5 years and with a big marketing budget...

You have to remember kickstarter backers are the ones who are making judgements: Some will come good others won't but as per Brian Fargo et. al. who went to publishers and were turned down and went to Kickstarter and hugely popular: It's directly gauging the market.

MMORPGs are especially very risky, and the more you pledge the more you expose yourself to risk. Everyone should make that decision for themselves.

On the one hand people will declaim it's going to crash & burn and on the other "where are all the good sandbox mmorpgs" with real investment/polish/dev experience...

I've beta'd a number of games and wih MMO's it is rarely proper beta testing.

Beta testing is testing - finding reporting and helping test bugs. Some do help - on the beta forums and in game, but for the majority it is instead treat as a free game to play until release, which they then often ditch the moment it goes live and subs apply.

The majority of the posts on a beta forum are the same kind of posts you get post release - moaning about balance or what their class needs (usually in the 'I want an I win button' form.). Showing that to the majority it is not a test but a free preview of the game.  An extended trial they use to decide if they want to continue and actually buy he game. It would be interesting to see the figures if they exist on how many try in beta but decide not to buy - beta tester equals lost sale in that case.

The rest split between actual beta testers giving bug feedback and a bunch of clueless numpties whining about the bugs they encountered spoiling their enjoyment . Ok that can be helpful to the devs, but the infamatory and derogatory  language they often use demonstrates that they don't believe they are there to test but to play for free.

So half or more have signed up to play a free preview not to test. A sub would help rule the majority of the freeloaders ho had no intention of buying, and help up the number who are there to test, and who understand the nature of a beta.

I'm on the side of the pay to beta. I see it as a positive step with games like Pathfinder as they are planning on running the beta on a professional level. You get to play and the knowledge of the game - so handy at launch. I get to play for hours and hours as well with little if any formal testing being required of me. I have never yet had any testing duties in an MMO aother than the occasional event try out etc.  - I'm playing so why should I expect it to be for free?

But I do worry that with a precidence set the next half baked cash greedy company   (like the recent one with a game with Z in the title...) will use beta as an extra cash cow. But then they often release a buggy beta build to live anyway and expect you to pay for it. So no great change there really.

Yet, the main reason people complain about such thing is because they don't get a "free trial". Not pointing at OP personally, just the trend.

See the irony?

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Originally posted by timtrack
Yet, the main reason people complain about such thing is because they don't get a "free trial". Not pointing at OP personally, just the trend.

See the irony?

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Unfortunately, a good many players just see a beta test as a free trial. They are the reason companies feel can charge for beta testing.

They say it's not a true beta, but more like gmail beta.  Where the game is fully functional and no character wipes.

here's my problem with it.  They have nothing done.  How would they know what their beta is going to be like?  

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

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Originally posted by timtrack
Yet, the main reason people complain about such thing is because they don't get a "free trial". Not pointing at OP personally, just the trend.

See the irony?

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I generally agree with this sentiment. There are still a few of us that realize what a beta testers job is all about. We report the bugs and fill out their questionnaires. We communicate with the company and let them know about our experiences while testing their game.

Unfortunately, a good many players just see a beta test as a free trial. They are the reason companies feel can charge for beta testing.

I agree that many, if not most, current mmo players use that as an opportunity to try out the game.  However, I think companies saw a revenue opportunity and took advantage of it.  They aren't seemingly interested in testers and their feedback and bug reports any more than the gamers just using it as a free trial.  The gamers who are just using it as a trial are still providing good metrics for load, stress, logins, etc.  This is one part where I feel the studios and publishers are out of line.

I sort of miss testing but I'm not willing to pay to do that or just to have a free trial.

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Originally posted by Torvaldr

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Originally posted by AlBQuirky

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Originally posted by timtrack
Yet, the main reason people complain about such thing is because they don't get a "free trial". Not pointing at OP personally, just the trend.

See the irony?

---

I generally agree with this sentiment. There are still a few of us that realize what a beta testers job is all about. We report the bugs and fill out their questionnaires. We communicate with the company and let them know about our experiences while testing their game.

Unfortunately, a good many players just see a beta test as a free trial. They are the reason companies feel can charge for beta testing.

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I agree that many, if not most, current mmo players use that as an opportunity to try out the game.  However, I think companies saw a revenue opportunity and took advantage of it.  They aren't seemingly interested in testers and their feedback and bug reports any more than the gamers just using it as a free trial.  The gamers who are just using it as a trial are still providing good metrics for load, stress, logins, etc.  This is one part where I feel the studios and publishers are out of line.

I sort of miss testing but I'm not willing to pay to do that or just to have a free trial.

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I guess it is coming down to "No more free trials?" lol

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 

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Originally posted by timtrack
Yet, the main reason people complain about such thing is because they don't get a "free trial". Not pointing at OP personally, just the trend.

 

See the irony?

---

I generally agree with this sentiment. There are still a few of us that realize what a beta testers job is all about. We report the bugs and fill out their questionnaires. We communicate with the company and let them know about our experiences while testing their game.

 

Unfortunately, a good many players just see a beta test as a free trial. They are the reason companies feel can charge for beta testing.

 I have never had a job as a beta tester.  I have certainly volunteered my time to help various companies complete their projects.  They are the beneficiaries of the work I put in to fix their game so it is in a state where they can sell it.  There are benefits to testing as well, but lets not get confused here by confusing a volunteer tester to a paid QA person.

As I said earlier though, I actually respect the fact that the company was upfront and said we are going to charge you a sub to test our game.  Other companies like StarVault  release a game in a barely beta state and automatically started people's "free" gametime and subsequest subscriptions.

GW has even said that you can hold any and all of your free months until release or some time after.  I respect that.  I think they are going to get my money.

I think it makes a difference that they are crowdforging the development process. They are talking on the pathfinder online forums with the people enough interested in playing that they are willing to front GW money based on the design concept. Once the game is released it is to be F2P, but until it is released they still have to pay server space and all the other operating expenses so they are requestig subs until release. After release your character will still gain experience over time, but you may have to wrangle some training using what htey are calling 'starmetal bits'. These starmetal bits can be bought with RL money or secured in-game from other players for in-game currency.

The design looks like a potential winner to me. We just have to come to terms with how they are going to make money.  

Originally posted by BlueMountain

I think it makes a difference that they are crowdforging the development process. They are talking on the pathfinder online forums with the people enough interested in playing that they are willing to front GW money based on the design concept. Once the game is released it is to be F2P, but until it is released they still have to pay server space and all the other operating expenses so they are requestig subs until release. After release your character will still gain experience over time, but you may have to wrangle some training using what htey are calling 'starmetal bits'. These starmetal bits can be bought with RL money or secured in-game from other players for in-game currency.

The design looks like a potential winner to me. We just have to come to terms with how they are going to make money.  

It's not "strictly" F2P, though they have used that term before, I think they will avoid in the future. Though via the PLEX/ISK system aka in Pathfinder Online "Sky Metal" you'll similarly be able to earn enough "coin"/"Sky Metal" to buy Skill-Training essentially for free as per EVE. They will also be a MTX option so players can tailor what they pay aside from a sub option (a package at a discount).

To sum: A Hybrid Payment option

I agree, the design races off to a roaring start with this one. But they need to get to the growth cycle a-sap and then it will come good/more possibility of it being a flier, I reckon.

Secondly the beta = Early enrollment ; more of a delta (less testing for a smaller feature release and more player live feedback). So that raises the value potentially also (and skill-training will carry over and improvements from revenue will be reinvested back into the game).

It's a good plan I think.

Originally posted by MumboJumbo

Secondly the beta = Early enrollment ; more of a delta (less testing for a smaller feature release and more player live feedback).

Early enrollment is not beta, it is the start of the game. The stated plan is to start small and add players incermentally so to make sure hardware and support teams can handle the stress. Everything built, gathered and learned in the early period remains when the game goes full public - the only difference is that access is no longer restricted.

The crowdforgers (kickstarter backers only) start in an 'empty' world with no player settlements (mostly random wilderness). Basically they have to start building the world for the later players. This is not a traditional 'beta' but a totally different gaming experience which appeals greatly to some of us.

By the time the game opens to the general public there should be much more variety in zones to adventure in: different types of settlements (or kingdoms), different levels of civilization, an established economy to play with etc etc.  And of course you also get to enjoy the bug fixes, rebalancing and polishing you expect after a game has been live for several months.

As was said on the Paizo forums, "if you want to play, wait for normal enrollment; if you want to build, become a crowdforger".

(if you are at all into pathfinder/DnD, the other kickstarter reward alone are also seriously worth checking out).

Originally posted by randomwalker

Originally posted by MumboJumbo

Secondly the ""beta"" = Early enrollment ; more of a delta (less testing for a smaller feature release and more player live feedback).

Early enrollment is not beta, it is the start of the game. 

re Title: Subscription required for Beta? WTH!?!

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Hasn't this been coming for awhile, now? It seems most new games now require a player at the least "pre-order" in order to test their game for them.

Beta-testing has moved from a service provided by players to iron out the bugs to a more lucrative "let's make players pay us to work for us" debacle.

And we players eat it right up, don't we? Just so we can say "I played this game since beta." That lends our opinions more "board cred."

If the game seems fun in beta I would not mind paying in beta. It's about me having fun in a game and me finding it worth it. Do not really care what stage a game would be in.

its not really paying for a beta though.  if you read the blogs what you are paying for is slot to play the game, the full release game.  its not going to be a beta in the traditional sense.  no character wiping and the community is going to be very much a part of the games development stage.  they are doing a mmo the only way they can, they dont have lots of investors or money to throw into the game, they are going to build it up slowly.  the lead developer was a guy that was with eve and is building it kind of like eve, slowly and not spending 100 million dollars on a game that turns out to not make money.

im still kind of torn about whether to support it or not.  i like everything they say they want to do, i like the design so far, but until i see something concrete like their technology demo they talked about, I dont feel comfortable paying money.  they have been talking about this demo for months now and still havent shown it, even though their first kickstarter ended months ago and they say it has been completed.

yes they are asking the community to fund the game, but they also listen to the community and seeing as how they are trying to be responsible with their finances it doesnt seem like such a big deal.  your skills improve in real time just like eve so anyone that gets in early will have more skills than someone who doesnt but if it is done in true eve fashion that skill jump wont be so bad on new players.  time will tell but i like the way they are making this game so far, just would like to see something concrete before i decide to spend money.

Meh... this happen back in the days of SWG and Entropia already.

Simply no need for people to play the BETA if they do not want to. In fact if you really love the game staying out of the beta is most likley the best path as you will not get burnt out that way.

Could be taken in the same vein as paying for MineCraft in alpha and beta phases. Sure you had to pay, but you were also playing and considerable improvements came to the game from the people who were playing, making mods, making let's play videos, etc. Considering the expense, this might be something we see more of from indie developers. Get cash flow boosts from people purcashing and playing.

If the game turns out to be completely freaking awesome, the expense might be very well worth it, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Originally posted by azzamasin
Friends don't let friends play indie.

 Because God knows all the "Good" games are made by the suites at the big name developers. Good luck waiting on them to turn out a decent Sandbox game. (I imagine you'll be waiting a real long time)

   What exactly was the last decent Sandbox game made by Big name developers? SWG i imagine and that lasted what 2 years before it was basically destroyed and remade as a theme park with the NGE. Color me as slightly less then trusting of Big name Developers like EA/bioware that brought us such great games as SW;TOR

Thats what Ea did with Swtor: we payed to beta test their game for the upcoming Swtor F2P