Originally posted by eyelolled

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by eyelolled

Not to seem unsympathetic, but doesn't this consistantly happen with every title, every time they release a game or expansion?

 

no, it does not

 

As a matter of fact, this almost never happens.

Really? I'd have to go back and look but I thought TSW, TERA, NCsoft, etc all had layoffs shortly after their games launched.  Like I said, I hope everything works out for those effected.

TSW and TERA were massive failures (from a sub standpoint).  NCSoft has made cuts (they just closed down a title, large part of the reason there) but ArenaNet was not affected.

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Rydeson
     That doesn't paint a pretty picture for the future..  I guess that means that Storm Legion is the first and last expansion for Rift..  Does this mean that Rift will now go into maintenance mode?  I'm sure they will toss a bone out there to keep the player base happy, but it looks like any longer term major content is done, since 1/3 of the staff were told bye bye.. 

Hmm. I'm not sure you or a lot of folks in this thread know how the industry works.

MMO development, for the most part, is a contract job. 

There are a few permanent employees of a studio, but only a few. 

When the studio has a project. It hires people on contract to complete the work. When the work is finished, the contract ends.

Thus, what would you expect from a studio that just finished and released an expansion, an expansion that is larger than the original game I might add? 

Well, I would expect quite a few contracts would  come to an end.

I'm not saying that Rift/storm legion is doing as well as hoped. I'm not saying that they aren't having issues. 

But they are developing a game which works in conjunction with a television series on a station which specifically targets the demographics for this genre. 

Plus they are hiring at their san diego office: http://trionworlds.com/en/careers/san-diego/

So let's not scream the sky is falling just yet.

 

Have you even read the info?  Sure, there were a couple contract guys scattered in there...but many people who have been with the company since day 1 were let go.  The guy that created and maintained one of the 4 classes was let go.  

 

ANyone who says this is standard is pretty clueless as to both the situation and the industry.  Contract workers being let go isnt news, its not layoffs, it just happens and no one says a word about.  Something like this is HUGE, for a game to let go this many longer term, quality people.  And this is just people with public profiles, and not even all of them.  Add in the rest + the ones with private profiles or the ones that use different methods than linkedin (artists for instance have better tools for employment searches).

 

And hiring at their San Diego office?  Any good company is ALWAYS hiring, even if they only have one employee other than the owner.  If the right candidate comes along, the owner would be foolish not to consider them over what he already has.  Hiring does not always mean adding positions.

 

The sky isnt falling but its certainly cracked.  And its more than likely End of Nation's fault, not Rift's.  But Rift has clearly paid the price.

How many game developers do you personally know? I know 3. They have all been contract workers. My nephew is currently getting his associate degree in game development. He is taking a class on how to make a career out of contract work.  I also have been in developer discussion groups at conventions, and they confirmed this.

Originally posted by Zorgo

How many game developers do you personally know? I know 3. They have all been contract workers. My nephew is currently getting his associate degree in game development. He is taking a class on how to make a career out of contract work.  I also have been in developer discussion groups at conventions, and they confirmed this.

 

Did you even read the information posted?  Clearly not contract workers.

And as I said, contract workers dont make news when their contract is up (aka they arent laid off- Their contract runs out and they go on their way).  I never said that companies don't use them, but no one makes any news of it when they go, because it isnt newsworthy.

for those who didnt bother to read:

20 people posted with public linkedins

15 of those 20 with the company for more than a year.

10 of those 20 with the company since more than a year before launch of Rift

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Zorgo

How many game developers do you personally know? I know 3. They have all been contract workers. My nephew is currently getting his associate degree in game development. He is taking a class on how to make a career out of contract work.  I also have been in developer discussion groups at conventions, and they confirmed this.

 

Did you even read the information posted?  Clearly not contract workers.

 

And as I said, contract workers dont make news when their contract is up (aka they arent laid off- Their contract runs out and they go on their way).  I never said that companies don't use them, but no one makes any news of it when they go, because it isnt newsworthy.

I read the article. It never clearly says the workers were not on contract. You can get hired on day 1 with a contract. That contract  can be extended indefinately, as long as they have work for you. One of my friends got a 3 month contract that was extended every 3 months for 2 years. Another got a one year contract and worked for nearly 5 years through extensions.

They do publicize contract layoffs. 

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=25905

This is when one of my friends I mentioned was layed off from DCUO. So this and all the other related articles discussing these SOE layoffs, were effecting lots and lots of people who were on contract. And it was publicized.

The game is definitely going through a rough spot at the moment.  Those were long term devs and employees not a bunch of temps.  Temp layoffs are totally different.

It's hard to say exactly what is going on but the interaction with the community has changed.  Botting is rampant with fishing, server moderation has pretty much become non-existent as well.  They haven't done much about either.

Here is some pure conjecture, but my guess is that they are getting ready to try and IPO or sale to a larger entity as a subsidiary.  I think they will reduce output for Rift, let EoN linger a little, and focus on Defiance.  I think the game will go sub-free in some form sometime in the next fiscal year.

http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-general-discussions/general-discussion/346891-state-game-im-concerned-starting-actually-worried.html

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Zorgo

How many game developers do you personally know? I know 3. They have all been contract workers. My nephew is currently getting his associate degree in game development. He is taking a class on how to make a career out of contract work.  I also have been in developer discussion groups at conventions, and they confirmed this.

 

Did you even read the information posted?  Clearly not contract workers.

 

And as I said, contract workers dont make news when their contract is up (aka they arent laid off- Their contract runs out and they go on their way).  I never said that companies don't use them, but no one makes any news of it when they go, because it isnt newsworthy.

I read the article. It never clearly says the workers were not on contract. You can get hired on day 1 with a contract. That contract  can be extended indefinately, as long as they have work for you. One of my friends got a 3 month contract that was extended every 3 months for 2 years. Another got a one year contract and worked for nearly 5 years through extensions.

They do publicize contract layoffs. 

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=25905

This is when one of my friends I mentioned was layed off from DCUO. So this and all the other related articles discussing these SOE layoffs, were effecting lots and lots of people who were on contract. And it was publicized.

 

 

No mention of contract workers at all in that article.  While your friends contract may have been finished, those layoffs were more than just fulfilled contracts otherwise it wouldnt have been news.  Those layoffs were due to failure of DCUO (and SoE having a bad run of things in general), not what people are trying to sell as post release fulfilled contracts.  This was 5 months after release.  5 months after release for a normal SoE game is already halfway to the next expansion.   

Again, 75% of people out of that sample of 20 from Rift layoffs had been with the company for over a year.  Haf were with the company LONG before Rift's launch.  If you want to say 'well maybe they were contract workers that were extended', it doesnt change the fact that these clearly werent people hired to work specifically on storm legion like the ostriches are claiming.  They were there before Storm legion begun devleopment.

[mod edit]

Originally posted by Torvaldr

 

Here is some pure conjecture, but my guess is that they are getting ready to try and IPO or sale to a larger entity as a subsidiary.  I think they will reduce output for Rift, let EoN linger a little, and focus on Defiance.  I think the game will go sub-free in some form sometime in the next fiscal year.

 

I have a feeling Rift will try the cosmetic cash shop first before doing a f2p model.

I would hope they dont need Defiance to be a hit though.  Not saying anything on the quality of the game, but nobody knows if there is a market for the type of game it is.  Its a risky gamble.

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Zorgo

How many game developers do you personally know? I know 3. They have all been contract workers. My nephew is currently getting his associate degree in game development. He is taking a class on how to make a career out of contract work.  I also have been in developer discussion groups at conventions, and they confirmed this.

 

Did you even read the information posted?  Clearly not contract workers.

 

And as I said, contract workers dont make news when their contract is up (aka they arent laid off- Their contract runs out and they go on their way).  I never said that companies don't use them, but no one makes any news of it when they go, because it isnt newsworthy.

I read the article. It never clearly says the workers were not on contract. You can get hired on day 1 with a contract. That contract  can be extended indefinately, as long as they have work for you. One of my friends got a 3 month contract that was extended every 3 months for 2 years. Another got a one year contract and worked for nearly 5 years through extensions.

They do publicize contract layoffs. 

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=25905

This is when one of my friends I mentioned was layed off from DCUO. So this and all the other related articles discussing these SOE layoffs, were effecting lots and lots of people who were on contract. And it was publicized.

 

 

No mention of contract workers at all in that article.  While your friends contract may have been finished, those layoffs were more than just fulfilled contracts otherwise it wouldnt have been news.  Those layoffs were due to failure of DCUO (and SoE having a bad run of things in general), not what people are trying to sell as post release fulfilled contracts.  This was 5 months after release.  5 months after release for a normal SoE game is already halfway to the next expansion.   

Again, 75% of people out of that sample of 20 from Rift layoffs had been with the company for over a year.  Haf were with the company LONG before Rift's launch.  If you want to say 'well maybe they were contract workers that were extended', it doesnt change the fact that these clearly werent people hired to work specifically on storm legion like the ostriches are claiming.  They were there before Storm legion begun devleopment.

Anyone who thinks this was 'post release contract workers' or 'business as usual' is ignorant of reality, and probably by choice.  Denial.  Sticking your hand in the sand like an ostrich and pretending the bad things arent there.

Where to begin....

Not business as usual?

http://gamepolitics.com/category/topics/layoffs#.UO9YgG9E4Xw

Sometimes a very bad thing can be quite the norm. 

http://www.bruceongames.com/2009/11/12/you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry/

"Job security is awful. Companies routinely get rid of people as the work flow fluctuates. No matter how good you are it is ridiculously easy to find yourself out of a job."

http://www.dorkly.com/article/27379/the-dorklyst-7-reasons-you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Anyone who thinks this was 'post release contract workers' or 'business as usual' is ignorant of reality, and probably by choice.  Denial.  Sticking your hand in the sand like an ostrich and pretending the bad things arent there.

Where to begin....

Not business as usual?

http://gamepolitics.com/category/topics/layoffs#.UO9YgG9E4Xw

Layoffs happen in the video game industry.  We all know that.  However there is a myth that it is commonpalce for a developer to have large scale layoffs after release of an expansion.  This link does not support that.  Its basically a bunch of companies with underperforming games/having issues reducing payroll.  Not "well, the work is done we don't need you anymore."

Basically, people try to act like there is nothing wrong because they want to believe there is nothing wrong. hence ostriches sticking their head in the sand.

Sometimes a very bad thing can be quite the norm. 

http://www.bruceongames.com/2009/11/12/you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry/

"Job security is awful. Companies routinely get rid of people as the work flow fluctuates. No matter how good you are it is ridiculously easy to find yourself out of a job."

http://www.dorkly.com/article/27379/the-dorklyst-7-reasons-you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry

See the previous response.  Also, MMORPG industry does work a little differently due the obvious fact that the game is never finished.  The work flow really doesnt fluctuate, in a healthy MMORPG.  Q+A is an exception to this, you dont need as much Q+A for a patch or early expansion stages as you do right before the expansion, but a company letting go of a half dozen Q+A people never makes news because it isnt news.  That is business as usual, not whats happened here.

 

I'm not saying that Rift/storm legion is doing as well as hoped. I'm not saying that they aren't having issues. "

How exactly did you get 'denial' from that?

Are you not trying to prove that what Trion did is "business as usual"?  You even tried to say, when given evidence that the vast majority of people let go were long term workers, that 'oh its just contract workers".

Large scale layoffs mean your game is having issues or your company is having issues.  In the age of crappy MMORPGs this happens frequently, but how often did you hear of EQ's devs being let go in its prime?  How about WoW devs?  Yes, WoW let go of a ton of CS staff, but not its dev team.

 

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Zorgo
 

"Job security is awful. Companies routinely get rid of people as the work flow fluctuates. No matter how good you are it is ridiculously easy to find yourself out of a job."

That's typical of a dream job industry.  I spent the 80s and early 90s working broadcast TV and radio.  The market was flooded with wanna-be talent, most with bachelors or better education.  Terrible job security as the trend at the time was for stations to restructure by firing all the old staff and bringing in new people for a "new" sound.  The norm was to pack up the family, move half way across the country and hope the job lasted for more than 18 months.

zorgo you are both right and wrong as ive worked on and off doing contract work in the industry also. Yes you are right about most employees being contract workers but you have to sign a 1099 and it has a end date to renew etc. But most companies do not let go contract workers unless they are losing money or restructuring because renewing a contract tends to end up being cheaper or you already have a dependable work force with experience using the tools needed for the engine and design. Trion World is taking a hit and had to lay off workers as is most of the industry right now due to a over saturated game market and a player base that hops game to game etc.

Rift never really did all that well in the markets in retention soon after release and they just had issues also with end of nations. Rift may have a dedicated community but its by far not a very large one and without a large playerbase Im pretty sure they cannot expect to have a large workforce with large paychecks.

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Torvaldr

 

Here is some pure conjecture, but my guess is that they are getting ready to try and IPO or sale to a larger entity as a subsidiary.  I think they will reduce output for Rift, let EoN linger a little, and focus on Defiance.  I think the game will go sub-free in some form sometime in the next fiscal year.

 

I have a feeling Rift will try the cosmetic cash shop first before doing a f2p model.

I would hope they dont need Defiance to be a hit though.  Not saying anything on the quality of the game, but nobody knows if there is a market for the type of game it is.  Its a risky gamble.

    My concerns as well.. My gut tells me that Defiance will not be the savior Trion is hoping for..  It's pretty much a PvP first person shooter game just like Planetside 2 and others..  Oh it might start off hot for the first few months with all the hyple and glitter of being new, but I think it will decline fast as the reality of a "subscription" becomes apparent.. 

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Anyone who thinks this was 'post release contract workers' or 'business as usual' is ignorant of reality, and probably by choice.  Denial.  Sticking your hand in the sand like an ostrich and pretending the bad things arent there.

Where to begin....

Not business as usual?

http://gamepolitics.com/category/topics/layoffs#.UO9YgG9E4Xw

Layoffs happen in the video game industry.  We all know that.  However there is a myth that it is commonpalce for a developer to have large scale layoffs after release of an expansion.  This link does not support that.  Its basically a bunch of companies with underperforming games/having issues reducing payroll.  Not "well, the work is done we don't need you anymore."

Basically, people try to act like there is nothing wrong because they want to believe there is nothing wrong. hence ostriches sticking their head in the sand.

Sometimes a very bad thing can be quite the norm. 

http://www.bruceongames.com/2009/11/12/you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry/

"Job security is awful. Companies routinely get rid of people as the work flow fluctuates. No matter how good you are it is ridiculously easy to find yourself out of a job."

http://www.dorkly.com/article/27379/the-dorklyst-7-reasons-you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry

See the previous response.  Also, MMORPG industry does work a little differently due the obvious fact that the game is never finished.  The work flow really doesnt fluctuate, in a healthy MMORPG.  Q+A is an exception to this, you dont need as much Q+A for a patch or early expansion stages as you do right before the expansion, but a company letting go of a half dozen Q+A people never makes news because it isnt news.  That is business as usual, not whats happened here.

 

I'm not saying that Rift/storm legion is doing as well as hoped. I'm not saying that they aren't having issues. "

How exactly did you get 'denial' from that?

Are you not trying to prove that what Trion did is "business as usual"?  You even tried to say, when given evidence that the vast majority of people let go were long term workers, that 'oh its just contract workers".

Large scale layoffs mean your game is having issues or your company is having issues.  In the age of crappy MMORPGs this happens frequently, but how often did you hear of EQ's devs being let go in its prime?  How about WoW devs?  Yes, WoW let go of a ton of CS staff, but not its dev team.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, I'm done. 

I could say the sky was blue and you would say that I'm wrong because it is 'light blue'.

Originally posted by Zorgo

Ok, I'm done. 

I could say the sky was blue and you would say that I'm wrong because it is 'light blue'.

 

What you are doing is trying to prove the sky is blue by saying the grass is green, therefore the sky is blue.  "Video game companies use a lot of contract employees therefore laying off large amounts of long term staff after an expansion release is business as usual".  We get it, video game industry uses a lot of contract workers.   They also break their contracts when things arent going well.  What does that have to do with all the 3 year+ employees that were with Trion long before Rift even launched?  Why is this normal after an expansion release?

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Zorgo

How many game developers do you personally know? I know 3. They have all been contract workers. My nephew is currently getting his associate degree in game development. He is taking a class on how to make a career out of contract work.  I also have been in developer discussion groups at conventions, and they confirmed this.

 

Did you even read the information posted?  Clearly not contract workers.

 

And as I said, contract workers dont make news when their contract is up (aka they arent laid off- Their contract runs out and they go on their way).  I never said that companies don't use them, but no one makes any news of it when they go, because it isnt newsworthy.

I read the article. It never clearly says the workers were not on contract. You can get hired on day 1 with a contract. That contract  can be extended indefinately, as long as they have work for you. One of my friends got a 3 month contract that was extended every 3 months for 2 years. Another got a one year contract and worked for nearly 5 years through extensions.

They do publicize contract layoffs. 

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=25905

This is when one of my friends I mentioned was layed off from DCUO. So this and all the other related articles discussing these SOE layoffs, were effecting lots and lots of people who were on contract. And it was publicized.

 

 

No mention of contract workers at all in that article.  While your friends contract may have been finished, those layoffs were more than just fulfilled contracts otherwise it wouldnt have been news.  Those layoffs were due to failure of DCUO (and SoE having a bad run of things in general), not what people are trying to sell as post release fulfilled contracts.  This was 5 months after release.  5 months after release for a normal SoE game is already halfway to the next expansion.   

Again, 75% of people out of that sample of 20 from Rift layoffs had been with the company for over a year.  Haf were with the company LONG before Rift's launch.  If you want to say 'well maybe they were contract workers that were extended', it doesnt change the fact that these clearly werent people hired to work specifically on storm legion like the ostriches are claiming.  They were there before Storm legion begun devleopment.

Anyone who thinks this was 'post release contract workers' or 'business as usual' is ignorant of reality, and probably by choice.  Denial.  Sticking your hand in the sand like an ostrich and pretending the bad things arent there.

Where to begin....

Not business as usual?

http://gamepolitics.com/category/topics/layoffs#.UO9YgG9E4Xw

Sometimes a very bad thing can be quite the norm. 

http://www.bruceongames.com/2009/11/12/you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry/

"Job security is awful. Companies routinely get rid of people as the work flow fluctuates. No matter how good you are it is ridiculously easy to find yourself out of a job."

http://www.dorkly.com/article/27379/the-dorklyst-7-reasons-you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry

 

I'm not saying that Rift/storm legion is doing as well as hoped. I'm not saying that they aren't having issues. "

How exactly did you get 'denial' from that?

As for contract work in the video game industry:

http://www.sloperama.com/advice/article58.htm

http://www.igda.org/articles/jcharne_termination

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_industry

"Product and talent layer: includes developers, designers and artists, who may be working under individual contracts or as part of in-house development teams."

But, you don't actually seem to want to 'discuss' anything. 

 

 

 

 

Okay before you dig yourself a bigger hole go back to the first page of this thread. The linkedin accounts of some of the people who are being let go are on there, none of them are contract workers.  Some of them have been with TRION even before TRION existed.  You don't just let those people go because, 'it's the nature of the business'.

Contract work exists within this industry as with others, I should know that's how I work, but these are significant layoffs from senoir people within the dev team, there's no other way to spin it.

Either you've missed the first page of this thread or you really are in denial.

Originally posted by Dantae87
OH NO i totally just subbed to this game and now its dying!.....wtf am i gonna play now GRRRRR

haha good joke, as if every game dies because a company had layoffs.

when will the sensationalist layoff reports end, IT'S BUSINESS AS USUAL FOR GODS SAKE, people get fired when a product is finished, end of story

Originally posted by Rydeson
     That doesn't paint a pretty picture for the future..  I guess that means that Storm Legion is the first and last expansion for Rift..  Does this mean that Rift will now go into maintenance mode?  I'm sure they will toss a bone out there to keep the player base happy, but it looks like any longer term major content is done, since 1/3 of the staff were told bye bye.. 

I doubt it's the last expansion.  But it's the last expansion of that depth.  I'm sure teh regular content updates will be released less frequently or with less content per update.