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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Anet's curious game design decisions that caused the 20-70 wasteland

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170 posts found
  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

1/08/13 2:01:17 PM#101
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Scarfe
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by moosecatlol

I only agree with the invisible walls, each zone is nothing more than a square/rectangle-esque platform with nothing but water in the shape of a square/rectangle below the surface.

I find more invisible walls in GW2 than I do in Borderlands 2. Invisible walls are the ultimate immersion killer T_T.

What invisible walls? Where? 

 

I haven't seen them yet.

He means artificial walls, and there are a hell of a lot of those, horribly designed and implemented. 

Such as? The mountains and such used blend in nicely with the landscape for example. What "artificial walls" are "horribly designed and implemented"? Examples would be nice, screenshots even better. 

Where are they? I have one character at 70% map and have not run into a glass wall like I did in GW1. Please show examples.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Scarfe

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/12
Posts: 287

1/08/13 2:01:42 PM#102
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Scarfe
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by moosecatlol

I only agree with the invisible walls, each zone is nothing more than a square/rectangle-esque platform with nothing but water in the shape of a square/rectangle below the surface.

I find more invisible walls in GW2 than I do in Borderlands 2. Invisible walls are the ultimate immersion killer T_T.

What invisible walls? Where? 

 

I haven't seen them yet.

He means artificial walls, and there are a hell of a lot of those, horribly designed and implemented. 

Such as? The mountains and such used blend in nicely with the landscape for example. What "artificial walls" are "horribly designed and implemented"? Examples would be nice, screenshots even better. 

Just look at the tetris map.  Do you really need screenshots or a new prescription?

currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  dlld

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/31/08
Posts: 510

1/08/13 2:01:55 PM#103
Originally posted by fat_taddler
Originally posted by Scarfe
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by moosecatlol

I only agree with the invisible walls, each zone is nothing more than a square/rectangle-esque platform with nothing but water in the shape of a square/rectangle below the surface.

I find more invisible walls in GW2 than I do in Borderlands 2. Invisible walls are the ultimate immersion killer T_T.

What invisible walls? Where? 

 

I haven't seen them yet.

He means artificial walls, and there are a hell of a lot of those, horribly designed and implemented. 

I've always been amazed by the collective pass given to ANet by both critics and gamers when it came to the rectangular zones.   Seems like something you'd see in an old 8-bit game, not Game of the Year for 2012.

If there was no map to show the boundaries i think few people would notice that overall (rather large) zone was in the shape of a rectangle because when actually playing I do not feel like i'm playing in "a box" at all, whereas SWToR felt very boxed in to me eventhough it rarely was actually shaped like a box.

  Scarfe

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/12
Posts: 287

1/08/13 2:02:48 PM#104
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Scarfe
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by moosecatlol

I only agree with the invisible walls, each zone is nothing more than a square/rectangle-esque platform with nothing but water in the shape of a square/rectangle below the surface.

I find more invisible walls in GW2 than I do in Borderlands 2. Invisible walls are the ultimate immersion killer T_T.

What invisible walls? Where? 

 

I haven't seen them yet.

He means artificial walls, and there are a hell of a lot of those, horribly designed and implemented. 

Such as? The mountains and such used blend in nicely with the landscape for example. What "artificial walls" are "horribly designed and implemented"? Examples would be nice, screenshots even better. 

Where are they? I have one character at 70% map and have not run into a glass wall like I did in GW1. Please show examples.

We have already covered the fact he used the incorrect terminology- read up ^

currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  User Deleted
1/08/13 2:03:32 PM#105
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Scarfe
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by moosecatlol

I only agree with the invisible walls, each zone is nothing more than a square/rectangle-esque platform with nothing but water in the shape of a square/rectangle below the surface.

I find more invisible walls in GW2 than I do in Borderlands 2. Invisible walls are the ultimate immersion killer T_T.

What invisible walls? Where? 

 

I haven't seen them yet.

He means artificial walls, and there are a hell of a lot of those, horribly designed and implemented. 

Such as? The mountains and such used blend in nicely with the landscape for example. What "artificial walls" are "horribly designed and implemented"? Examples would be nice, screenshots even better. 

Where are they? I have one character at 70% map and have not run into a glass wall like I did in GW1. Please show examples.

GW1 has invisible walls, GW2 has very interesting mountain ranges which form perfect rectangles around most zones.  

  JoeyMMO

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/11
Posts: 1254

To busy playing GW2 to post much around here... *shrug*

1/08/13 2:05:20 PM#106
Originally posted by jpnz

In a reddit AMA, ANet's devs accepted the 20-70 wasteland issue as valid and said 'we'll have to figure something out'.

An MMO that is top / bottom level heavy isn't anything new but compared to other MMOs, apparently this issue was more extreme.

Quite the contrary, it still exists but less extreme due to level scaling.

It also doesn't help that most DE will constantly fail if there isn't enough players involved which means most players can't progress and see the next one. Since DE was suppose to be GW2's most hyped feature (as an aside, remember the 'zones will change!' lie? ANet, what happened? T_T), having it constantly in a failed state highlights this issue even more.

Events need to scale even better to fewer players. Just a few decent players are enough to beat most events. And usually there's at least a few around.

So what are the major design decisions that made this issue into such a big one?

1. Level scaling. Having a constant challenge by scaling is a game design decision that is mostly in racing games now and for good reason. If you are at level cap in WoW or other MMOs, going to any area that isn't the 'high end' doesn't really concern you.  You will ROFL-STOMP everything in that zone so there is little barrier on actually doing it.

Not in GW2. Whether you like this design or not, it is manifesting in GW2 with the 'wasteland' problem as there will be less players willing to go to a zone if there are little rewards for a lot of risk.

 You obviously don't know what you're talking about. There are no little rewards for a lot of risk, there is less reward for even less risk. High level players are considerably stronger in lower level zones. I highly doubt you have any real hands on experience pertaining to what you write here or else you'd know you're just talking crap.

2. Too many mobs / areas have too many invisible walls

The GW2 map shows a game world that screams 'arificial'. There are no 'curves' or anything. Just straight up rectangles filled with invisible walls.

The overall shape of a zone is pretty much a rectangle, but that doesn't mean there are no curves. The zones have only a few ways in and out of them and there are loading screens between the zones, but straight up rectangles filled with invisible walls? Seriously play the game a bit more.

The mob intensity makes it really difficult to travel from point A to point B and so people are less willing to do it.

 Huh? They made changes to that within the first few weeks. Play instead of just reading something from months ago and reformulating it as an opinion.

3. Self-recursive problem

The problem itself of 'less people in the world' causes issue 2 to become even worse which in turn causes more people to avoid going out into the world.

 There is no issue number 2 to make worse.

I said 'curious' cause I don't think they were thoughtout that well and now ANet is trying to figure something out.

The only thing that is curious is how little you seem to know about the actual game.

They mentioned that they don't like the henchmen idea but I don't see a solution without redesigning their game which is probably the last resort. I don't mind having henchmen cause they worked great in GW1 so not sure why the resistance now.

You don't need henchmen, every class is viable in itself.

 

  Volkon

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3804

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

1/08/13 2:08:16 PM#107
Originally posted by Scarfe
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Scarfe
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by moosecatlol

I only agree with the invisible walls, each zone is nothing more than a square/rectangle-esque platform with nothing but water in the shape of a square/rectangle below the surface.

I find more invisible walls in GW2 than I do in Borderlands 2. Invisible walls are the ultimate immersion killer T_T.

What invisible walls? Where? 

 

I haven't seen them yet.

He means artificial walls, and there are a hell of a lot of those, horribly designed and implemented. 

Such as? The mountains and such used blend in nicely with the landscape for example. What "artificial walls" are "horribly designed and implemented"? Examples would be nice, screenshots even better. 

Just look at the tetris map.  Do you really need screenshots or a new prescription?

I prefer to look at it from in the game itself. Of course, I lived in the Denver area and Colorado Springs for a number of years, so seeing a mountain range "wall" to the west does indeed feel perfectly natural to me. 

Oderint, dum metuant.

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1722

"I shall take your position into consideration"

1/08/13 2:10:54 PM#108
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Leucent
Originally posted by colddog04
Which themepark style game are you playing that has all the mid-level zones bustling with people? 

I play both Rift, and WoW, and both are extremely active in mid levels.

I'll show you right now what is in WoW. And it is anything but populated.

 

WoW - Moonguard
Feralas 3    lvl 39 lvl 90 lvl 90
Desolace 2    lvl 35 lvl 90
Southern Barrens 1    lvl 90
Witnerspring 2    lvl 50 lvl 80

 

And the actual chance of seeing those people is extremely low since you will not be leveling in the same area. Those numbers are far lower than the number of people I find in GW2 zones, even if GW2 zones are underpopulated.

How long has GW 2 been out? 6 months? And it's already a wasteland.

Do you remember how WoW low / mid zones looked like 6 months after its release? 1 year after its release? 2 years after its release?

As far as I remember, they were crowded.

Playing: Chronicle 1
Waiting for: None of the games already announced

My game concept thread: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/369707 (any feedback appreciated)

  Scarfe

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/12
Posts: 287

1/08/13 2:15:32 PM#109
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Scarfe
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Scarfe
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by moosecatlol

I only agree with the invisible walls, each zone is nothing more than a square/rectangle-esque platform with nothing but water in the shape of a square/rectangle below the surface.

I find more invisible walls in GW2 than I do in Borderlands 2. Invisible walls are the ultimate immersion killer T_T.

What invisible walls? Where? 

 

I haven't seen them yet.

He means artificial walls, and there are a hell of a lot of those, horribly designed and implemented. 

Such as? The mountains and such used blend in nicely with the landscape for example. What "artificial walls" are "horribly designed and implemented"? Examples would be nice, screenshots even better. 

Just look at the tetris map.  Do you really need screenshots or a new prescription?

I prefer to look at it from in the game itself. Of course, I lived in the Denver area and Colorado Springs for a number of years, so seeing a mountain range "wall" to the west does indeed feel perfectly natural to me. 

Fair enough.  Tbh if I were to provide screenshots, off the top of my head any of the charr zones would fit the bill (I know the wall is from GW1 but still...).  Take your pick and your own screenshots if you wish to, just step out of BC and point and shoot. 

currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

1/08/13 2:21:08 PM#110
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Leucent
Originally posted by colddog04
Which themepark style game are you playing that has all the mid-level zones bustling with people? 

I play both Rift, and WoW, and both are extremely active in mid levels.

I'll show you right now what is in WoW. And it is anything but populated.

 

WoW - Moonguard
Feralas 3    lvl 39 lvl 90 lvl 90
Desolace 2    lvl 35 lvl 90
Southern Barrens 1    lvl 90
Witnerspring 2    lvl 50 lvl 80

 

And the actual chance of seeing those people is extremely low since you will not be leveling in the same area. Those numbers are far lower than the number of people I find in GW2 zones, even if GW2 zones are underpopulated.

How long has GW 2 been out? 6 months? And it's already a wasteland.

Do you remember how WoW low / mid zones looked like 6 months after its release? 1 year after its release? 2 years after its release?

As far as I remember, they were crowded.

Less than 5 months and it is not a wasteland on  my server. There may be some areas people do gripe about but I am always running into people.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Terranah

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 3609

1/08/13 2:29:27 PM#111
Originally posted by dlld
Originally posted by Terranah

Second, yeah I was suprised I got the Exotic yesterday.  Surprised because it doesn't happen that often, but I have gotten level 80 exotics from low to mid range areas, unfortunately I had better or couldn't use it do to profession restriction.  As far as loot goes, I'm getting whites, blues, greens, with a wide range of levels.  A lot of it is low level, but a fair amount is also 76 to 78, some 80 but not much.

You've gotten multiple exotics drops from mobs? And not zone completion rewards or chests that have a high chance like mad king dungeon? That's lucky.. 784 hours played, i've yet to see a mob drop an exotic (same goes for black lion chest keys).

 Zone comletion rewards are meh.  Because I'm level 80 and decked out in exotics almost entirely, the zone rewards are not very useful.  Most of the things I get I throw into the bank to take up space, so yeah...the zone rewards suck so I'll give that to you.

 

I noticed the times I've gotten exotics, it was like within the first 30 minutes of logging in for that day.  I don't know why, maybe cooincidence.  I tend to play in 2 hour blocks, sometimes more sometimes less.  Not sure what kind of mobs dropped exotics in the other instances, but this last time it was a mini boss...one with a brown ring around the name.  Another exotic I got was from a boss mob in level 80 zone fighting a dragon.  I remember that one, but it wasn't something I could use so I auctioned it.  The other times it might have been minibosses, bosses, or just regular mobs.  Sorry I can't be more specific.  The black iron chest keys, I might have looted one early on in the game.  Then I've gotten maybe one or two more doing zone completions or completing a dungeon or something.  Can't remember. 

 

Also disappointing is there are not that many appearances of armor for hunter.  That combined with the fact I used transmutation stones/crystals so I could keep my cultural armor relevant, and looting is something I just do to make some coin and not very exciting.  So yeah, I agree it could be better.  It could always be better. 

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

1/08/13 2:35:25 PM#112

Thats very interesting seeing as how every single game ever made had lower level zone population issues after so many months of release...I cannot remember how many times I was leveling alts with next to no one around in every game going back to Anarchy Online outside of SWG which had no levels.

I mean seriously how many games can you name where you went back to say level 20 mobs at level 60 other than to get to a dang dungeon in that zone or to get some crafting materials? Yeah...double standard much?

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Terranah

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 3609

1/08/13 2:38:24 PM#113
Originally posted by jtcgs

Thats very interesting seeing as how every single game ever made had lower level zone population issues after so many months of release...I cannot remember how many times I was leveling alts with next to no one around in every game going back to Anarchy Online outside of SWG which had no levels.

I mean seriously how many games can you name where you went back to say level 20 mobs at level 60 other than to get to a dang dungeon in that zone or to get some crafting materials? Yeah...double standard much?

 yeah this is pretty much every game I've played.  Maybe some will quibble on the time frame, but it seems like a good percentage of people are the min/max type, so this will eventually happen to any game to caters to that type of gameplay, which is to say most.

 

I see people running around all the time.  Some zones are more populated than others.  I'd like to see more peeps, but it is by no means deserted.

  User Deleted
1/08/13 2:50:17 PM#114
Originally posted by jtcgs

Thats very interesting seeing as how every single game ever made had lower level zone population issues after so many months of release...I cannot remember how many times I was leveling alts with next to no one around in every game going back to Anarchy Online outside of SWG which had no levels.

I mean seriously how many games can you name where you went back to say level 20 mobs at level 60 other than to get to a dang dungeon in that zone or to get some crafting materials? Yeah...double standard much?

You and some others are missing the point.  Prior to GW2's launch, the popular talking point was that the whole game is end-game and how the level scaling mechanics were going to change the way we play MMO's.

Clearly, that was something that sounded good in theory but did not actually work out as well as many had hoped.

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

1/08/13 3:03:27 PM#115
Originally posted by fat_taddler
Originally posted by jtcgs

Thats very interesting seeing as how every single game ever made had lower level zone population issues after so many months of release...I cannot remember how many times I was leveling alts with next to no one around in every game going back to Anarchy Online outside of SWG which had no levels.

I mean seriously how many games can you name where you went back to say level 20 mobs at level 60 other than to get to a dang dungeon in that zone or to get some crafting materials? Yeah...double standard much?

You and some others are missing the point.  Prior to GW2's launch, the popular talking point was that the whole game is end-game and how the level scaling mechanics were going to change the way we play MMO's.

Clearly, that was something that sounded good in theory but did not actually work out as well as many had hoped.

Actually, you can't make people like the idea. People like to grind, what can I say. They will gripe and gripe about it but they will grind nonetheless.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3050

I am more than some of my parts

1/08/13 3:34:31 PM#116

 I am consistantly playing in the 20 - 70 zones, and working with my 3 level 80, I have yet to make it to the level 80 zone. I'm not doing fractals, and I'm not doing dungeons. I'm only at mid-fifties for map completion. I am consistantly playing with other people, and I think the game is working as it should be. Doing a DE with 15 people instead of 50 people makes it alot more challenging, and even less people works out fine. There are some harder DE's that I couldn't complete myself, but I can complete any of them with as little as 5 people. I'm not ever alone in a empty zone. Not once, not ever.

So some people might like to run with a zerg because they don't know how to use their skills, and maybe that's why they don't know how. Maybe thats the problem that some people see. I think the game is working great, right now. It's ideal.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

  kyssari

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 158

"Reality is but a figment of our collective imaginations." -N.E.S.

1/08/13 3:38:43 PM#117
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by kyssari

My biggest issue with this so called wasteland is GW2's skill system actually. That being said the wasteland exists more 30-80 rather than 20. The thing is once you hit 30 and unlock your Elite skill slot you can technically have every skill in the game unlocked that your character can ever possibly use. You can easily get all the skillpoints from all the pvp zones and 1-35 zones (and even a number of higher ones if have to) to unlock everything at 30.

That being said I often found myself burning out around mid30s-40 with my alts because by that time I had all the skills unlocked I was interested in and thus I really had nothing to look foward to until 80. That leaves 40-50 lvls of nothing but gear upgrades really. With most other mmo's leveling up to gain access to those cool new abilities played a much larger part in making me want to hit those high levels with numerous toons so I could play with those new abilities. This doesn't really exist in as much with GW2, especially when you ause the Heart of the Mists area.

Not saying the system is good or bad just the biggest reason for my fast burnout on the game in general.

 

Wow, someone is forgetting to allocate their trait points it seems. You don't seem to realize how much you can customize your character with traits. One I like personally is one that I use to change dodging into an offensive weapon for my mesmer. There are more layers than just the skills you see on top.

True you got traits to allocate all the way up to lvl 80 but traits don't even compare to learning all new skills. For the most part traits just enhance skills/stats/etc that you already have and are nowhere near as exciting as learning a completely new more powerful ability altogether.

  User Deleted
1/08/13 3:48:37 PM#118
Originally posted by Terranah

Wow, there's a lot of cynical people out there.  One person says they aren't 'convinced' I'm going into low level zones?  I'm trying to get 100% map completion, so I'm hitting all the zones that aren't finished, including the low ones.  I've been playing since launch and so far only to 70% completion, but I do a lot of the quests in the areas I'm in and try to find hidden areas.  As I have posted many times, I'm not a min/maxer.  I'm in it for the experience, not the ego.

 

Second, yeah I was suprised I got the Exotic yesterday.  Surprised because it doesn't happen that often, but I have gotten level 80 exotics from low to mid range areas, unfortunately I had better or couldn't use it do to profession restriction.  As far as loot goes, I'm getting whites, blues, greens, with a wide range of levels.  A lot of it is low level, but a fair amount is also 76 to 78, some 80 but not much.

 

If people don't believe, lol...I don't know what to tell ya.

 

As far as crafting and farming components, I don't craft so I can't speak to that.  I auction/vendor all crafting items.

I have the same experience as you do, tho I stopped playing because I am a crafter. Someone accused me of not going to the lower level zones too. Since I craft and explore. I came to this game for the loot because I was promised I'd be able to farm in open world. Even JonPeter's recent statements about DR have said they want legit farmers to stay but their actions speak otherwise.

I'm a gathcraftsplorer who's been playing since headstart and I've still not completed the map on my main for two reasons.

1: I only play pve, hated pvp and hate pvp being forced down the throats of the players even more. WvW should have never been included in explorations.

2: Orr is a nightmare, literally, it's like they made the whole zone nuthing but a zerg dungeon. They didn't even keep their word on enemy spawns, they just popup sometimes instantly, they don't crawl out of the ground or appear elsewhere and come running like we were told they would in interviews before the game launched. And the CC omg. It's crazy.

Basically it's not even worth going to Orr if I am not out of ancient wood or orichalcum (the highest wood and ore atm for those who don't play)

From a crafters point of view they are pisspoor when it comes to helping us out. All of the new recipes so far have been mostly mystic toilet recipes, completely bypassing the leveling of crafting process entirely. I have a suspicion they will be doing the ascended gear this way, really aggrivated me. When talking about rewards the people who actually got them to do something about getting T6 materials were the legendary grinders who need 250 for their legendary completions not the crafting community. So you know what they did? They improved the drop rates of T6 materials from bags. but guess what that means. It's completely random and it's not all T6 items just the body parts like powerful blood claws teeth etc. So when I open 100 bags It's a 50/50 chance I'll get silk and teeth/claws/bones....basically all the things I don't need will pop out of the things. And that's IF  I can get the bags to drop. usually after the 6-7th kills of the same type of mob I get hit with DR and suddenly get grey items.

So I'm screwed in the low end zones and I'm screwed in the high end zones I'm screwed finding chests I'm screwed doing events with champs I'm screwed doing major boss fight events and I'm screwed trying to farm from events (hitting multiple mobs at once with damage) so what does that leave? dungeons. Had 7 years of dungeon only gameplay, no thanks.

 

This is why they need to remove the guy in charge of this game because post launch the idiot has done nothing but break the thing and go against everything we were promised in countless interviews. seriously. replace him nao.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6479

1/08/13 3:54:48 PM#119
Originally posted by fat_taddler
Originally posted by jtcgs

Thats very interesting seeing as how every single game ever made had lower level zone population issues after so many months of release...I cannot remember how many times I was leveling alts with next to no one around in every game going back to Anarchy Online outside of SWG which had no levels.

I mean seriously how many games can you name where you went back to say level 20 mobs at level 60 other than to get to a dang dungeon in that zone or to get some crafting materials? Yeah...double standard much?

You and some others are missing the point.  Prior to GW2's launch, the popular talking point was that the whole game is end-game and how the level scaling mechanics were going to change the way we play MMO's.

Clearly, that was something that sounded good in theory but did not actually work out as well as many had hoped.

+1

  Bad.dog

Elite Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 853

1/08/13 3:57:29 PM#120
Originally posted by Leucent
Originally posted by colddog04
Which themepark style game are you playing that has all the mid-level zones bustling with people? 

I play both Rift, and WoW, and both are extremely active in mid levels.

Really ....things must have changed in WOW since 2007 and in Rift after the second month ?

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