I'm sorry, but I've been in other MMO's that were dying, and you could visibly see it when you played them. City of Heroes was not a game that was dying. NCSoft blindsided us and Paragon Studios, and right now they are getting the backlash they deserve. When you piss off your consumers as company you should pay a price. Look at what the NHL is going to face in the coming years after ANOHTER lockout. All NCSoft has to do is sell the IP rights and they can save face and the gaming community will back off. I can't recall another instance where a MMO that was shut down had received such support from it's playerbase in order to keep it alive.

Read the "lawyerspeak".

Paragon Studios was not profitable - maybe not, given that more than half the people were working on something other than CoH which was generating no revenue yet. My suspicion is that the anonymous source was quoting the CoH figures, and NCSoft the ones for the whole studio.

Also note that in Q3 they took no revenue for September and had to refund some stuff purchased in August so I'm not surprised the Q3 figures were way down.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Scot

You do realise the MMO industry has turned from one which makes MMO’s for long term profit to one which makes MMO’s for short term profit? That MMO’s are now expected to perform more like solo games than multiplayer games when it comes to return of investment and overall profit?

In light of this, why would any gaming company try to keep an old MMO going? If you are making a profit but only relatively a small one, and you think resources can be put to better use elsewhere why would you keep an old MMO running? Gaming companies are run by suits now, not gamers, wake up and smell the monetary coffee.

I expect more such closures in the next couple of years, if your old MMO is with a company making new MMO’s it is definitely vulnerable.

Very, very true.  We are bound to see more of this over the next few years.  Suits have entirely different perspectives than Dev's and gamers do. Hell, I suspect many of them seldom if ever play their own games.  Its just a job to them, andf if the numbers don't add up to their projections/expectations, they have no problem pulling the plug.

While that may be good for the projects ROI, it can become a toxic attitude over time.  Look at the number of people who seriously dislike NCsoft, SOE, and other such.  Thats like a corrosive DOT, and it can seriously damage a companies reputation, over time.  I suspect we've just started to see some of the backlash in that regard.

This is what I'm thinking too.

2013 is shaping up to be a morbid year for online gaming, with the Zynga closures, the phone fetish, consoles on the wane, and the total customer pool plateauing (in absolute terms).

I have a feeling we'll see two to three more AAA titles announce closings this year.  Maybe more.  The thing about a move like this from one of the "majors" is that it makes investors press the other majors to do the same.  There's a boatload of sub-performing subscription, FTP/hybrid games that are a bit older or younger that CoH...and are in even worse shape than CoH ever was (Vanguard, Age of Connan, Warhammer Online, and I could name others).

As to how much this affects NCsoft, clearly it does give them a bad image. But I think it is one they can easily survive, look how much stick SOE has had and they are still going strong.

The reason for this is that new customers are always coming in; this only really matters to those who were playing the game when it closed. They will kick up a fuss. Those of us who played CoH a while back will do a bit of posting too. But new players coming in this year will have not even heard of CoH, those who joined us in the last couple of years will have heard of it but never played the game.

For every customer who will now question NCsofts long term commitment to its MMO’s, a newcomer is starting this year who will dive in. And there is the “well they would not do that to our MMO” position and that’s where GW2 players are at. And those GW2 players are right, at least for a couple of years.

Some companies do put their players first more often, I would single out Turbine though it is hardly spotless when it comes to putting money first. They recently brought back Asheron’s Call, it is not going to make them a a huge profit, they did it because it was what fans wanted. Keeping some servers up for a MMO and not adding content is not that expensive, but for NCsoft it clearly was.

It kind of amazes me how all of these armchair biz-wizzes know what is "profitable" to any specific company and what is not.

After all is said and done and paid out, let's just say NCSoft makes a nickel on every game account on average. Is that a profit? Yup. Is it enough to stay in business? I highly doubt it. The investors may disagree with *your* idea of "profitable."

Who has access to NCSoft's financials where they state clearly what CoH brought in for them?

Anybody?

Anybody?

Beuhler?

Than stop stating your opinions as facts. Or at least state exactly what your facts are. There is "profitable" and there is "profitable enough."

I played CoH for years. I enjoyed the game and my time there (well over 3 years). It was probably the best MMORPG I have played yet. Let it go, already.

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Scot

You do realise the MMO industry has turned from one which makes MMO’s for long term profit to one which makes MMO’s for short term profit? That MMO’s are now expected to perform more like solo games than multiplayer games when it comes to return of investment and overall profit?

In light of this, why would any gaming company try to keep an old MMO going? If you are making a profit but only relatively a small one, and you think resources can be put to better use elsewhere why would you keep an old MMO running? Gaming companies are run by suits now, not gamers, wake up and smell the monetary coffee.

I expect more such closures in the next couple of years, if your old MMO is with a company making new MMO’s it is definitely vulnerable.

Very, very true.  We are bound to see more of this over the next few years.  Suits have entirely different perspectives than Dev's and gamers do. Hell, I suspect many of them seldom if ever play their own games.  Its just a job to them, andf if the numbers don't add up to their projections/expectations, they have no problem pulling the plug.

While that may be good for the projects ROI, it can become a toxic attitude over time.  Look at the number of people who seriously dislike NCsoft, SOE, and other such.  Thats like a corrosive DOT, and it can seriously damage a companies reputation, over time.  I suspect we've just started to see some of the backlash in that regard.

This is what I'm thinking too.

2013 is shaping up to be a morbid year for online gaming, with the Zynga closures, the phone fetish, consoles on the wane, and the total customer pool plateauing (in absolute terms).

I have a feeling we'll see two to three more AAA titles announce closings this year.  Maybe more.  The thing about a move like this from one of the "majors" is that it makes investors press the other majors to do the same.  There's a boatload of sub-performing subscription, FTP/hybrid games that are a bit older or younger that CoH...and are in even worse shape than CoH ever was (Vanguard, Age of Connan, Warhammer Online, and I could name others).

You keep portraying doom and gloom, but I'm not seeing it.  The Zynga closures were all minor flash FB games.  They didn't close Farmville, YoVille, or any of their most popular titles.  The most popular games they closed were PetVille and ChefVille, both games with nowhere to go and declining popularity.  Your FB credits and Zynga bucks (whatever those are called) are still good at any of their other games and they still offer quite a choice for those that like that style of game.

Then you mention the "phone fetish" as though that is supposed to be signficant.  Toss in some hyperbole about consoles "waning" (nice power word though - I liked it), and something ambiguous about customer pools plateauing (another nice word btw) and it's just a bunch of vague empty nothing meant to promote your fear agenda.

There are more gaming options now than ever before and more accessible gaming than ever before.  A few titles closing doesn't mean the whole industry is in a tailspin heading for a crash.  It's sad that the game closed, it really is, but that doesn't mean every other niche game is going to suddenly cave or that the entire genre is unstable.

I fully expect to see other games close over the next couple of years, but I also expect new games will open up.  If we're fortunate payment models will merge somewhat and we will see them compete on quality instead of just offering cheaper gameplay.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Scot

You do realise the MMO industry has turned from one which makes MMO’s for long term profit to one which makes MMO’s for short term profit? That MMO’s are now expected to perform more like solo games than multiplayer games when it comes to return of investment and overall profit?

In light of this, why would any gaming company try to keep an old MMO going? If you are making a profit but only relatively a small one, and you think resources can be put to better use elsewhere why would you keep an old MMO running? Gaming companies are run by suits now, not gamers, wake up and smell the monetary coffee.

I expect more such closures in the next couple of years, if your old MMO is with a company making new MMO’s it is definitely vulnerable.

Very, very true.  We are bound to see more of this over the next few years.  Suits have entirely different perspectives than Dev's and gamers do. Hell, I suspect many of them seldom if ever play their own games.  Its just a job to them, andf if the numbers don't add up to their projections/expectations, they have no problem pulling the plug.

While that may be good for the projects ROI, it can become a toxic attitude over time.  Look at the number of people who seriously dislike NCsoft, SOE, and other such.  Thats like a corrosive DOT, and it can seriously damage a companies reputation, over time.  I suspect we've just started to see some of the backlash in that regard.

This is what I'm thinking too.

2013 is shaping up to be a morbid year for online gaming, with the Zynga closures, the phone fetish, consoles on the wane, and the total customer pool plateauing (in absolute terms).

I have a feeling we'll see two to three more AAA titles announce closings this year.  Maybe more.  The thing about a move like this from one of the "majors" is that it makes investors press the other majors to do the same.  There's a boatload of sub-performing subscription, FTP/hybrid games that are a bit older or younger that CoH...and are in even worse shape than CoH ever was (Vanguard, Age of Connan, Warhammer Online, and I could name others).

You keep portraying doom and gloom, but I'm not seeing it.  The Zynga closures were all minor flash FB games.  They didn't close Farmville, YoVille, or any of their most popular titles.  The most popular games they closed were PetVille and ChefVille, both games with nowhere to go and declining popularity.  Your FB credits and Zynga bucks (whatever those are called) are still good at any of their other games and they still offer quite a choice for those that like that style of game.

Then you mention the "phone fetish" as though that is supposed to be signficant.  Toss in some hyperbole about consoles "waning" (nice power word though - I liked it), and something ambiguous about customer pools plateauing (another nice word btw) and it's just a bunch of vague empty nothing meant to promote your fear agenda.

There are more gaming options now than ever before and more accessible gaming than ever before.  A few titles closing doesn't mean the whole industry is in a tailspin heading for a crash.  It's sad that the game closed, it really is, but that doesn't mean every other niche game is going to suddenly cave or that the entire genre is unstable.

I fully expect to see other games close over the next couple of years, but I also expect new games will open up.  If we're fortunate payment models will merge somewhat and we will see them compete on quality instead of just offering cheaper gameplay.

That might be true.

All the same, I don't think it's a good idea to spend a lot of time and money in some of the games on the margins.  Too risky.

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

It kind of amazes me how all of these armchair biz-wizzes know what is "profitable" to any specific company and what is not.

After all is said and done and paid out, let's just say NCSoft makes a nickel on every game account on average. Is that a profit? Yup. Is it enough to stay in business? I highly doubt it. The investors may disagree with *your* idea of "profitable."

Who has access to NCSoft's financials where they state clearly what CoH brought in for them?

Anybody?

Anybody?

Beuhler?

Than stop stating your opinions as facts. Or at least state exactly what your facts are. There is "profitable" and there is "profitable enough."

I played CoH for years. I enjoyed the game and my time there (well over 3 years). It was probably the best MMORPG I have played yet. Let it go, already.

Not sure if serious.  Much of the financial are known, and it's almost a certainty that it brought in 4 million in profit anually.

---

Originally posted by adam_nox

---

Originally posted by AlBQuirky It kind of amazes me how all of these armchair biz-wizzes know what is "profitable" to any specific company and what is not. After all is said and done and paid out, let's just say NCSoft makes a nickel on every game account on average. Is that a profit? Yup. Is it enough to stay in business? I highly doubt it. The investors may disagree with *your* idea of "profitable." Who has access to NCSoft's financials where they state clearly what CoH brought in for them? Anybody? Anybody? Beuhler? Than stop stating your opinions as facts. Or at least state exactly what your facts are. There is "profitable" and there is "profitable enough." I played CoH for years. I enjoyed the game and my time there (well over 3 years). It was probably the best MMORPG I have played yet. Let it go, already.

---

Not sure if serious.  Much of the financial are known, and it's almost a certainty that it brought in 4 million in profit anually.

---

Originally posted by Beatnik59

That might be true.

All the same, I don't think it's a good idea to spend a lot of time and money in some of the games on the margins.  Too risky.

Yeah, now that I do have to agree with.  This has reminded me that what I spend money on could be gone tomorrow.  Not that I won't spend that money, but it has made me examine more closely if I really want it or not.

---

Originally posted by adam_nox

---

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
It kind of amazes me how all of these armchair biz-wizzes know what is "profitable" to any specific company and what is not.

After all is said and done and paid out, let's just say NCSoft makes a nickel on every game account on average. Is that a profit? Yup. Is it enough to stay in business? I highly doubt it. The investors may disagree with *your* idea of "profitable."

Who has access to NCSoft's financials where they state clearly what CoH brought in for them?

Anybody?

Anybody?

Beuhler?

Than stop stating your opinions as facts. Or at least state exactly what your facts are. There is "profitable" and there is "profitable enough."

I played CoH for years. I enjoyed the game and my time there (well over 3 years). It was probably the best MMORPG I have played yet. Let it go, already.

---

Not sure if serious.  Much of the financial are known, and it's almost a certainty that it brought in 4 million in profit anually.

---

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 

---

Originally posted by adam_nox

---

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
It kind of amazes me how all of these armchair biz-wizzes know what is "profitable" to any specific company and what is not.

 

After all is said and done and paid out, let's just say NCSoft makes a nickel on every game account on average. Is that a profit? Yup. Is it enough to stay in business? I highly doubt it. The investors may disagree with *your* idea of "profitable."

Who has access to NCSoft's financials where they state clearly what CoH brought in for them?

Anybody?

Anybody?

Beuhler?

Than stop stating your opinions as facts. Or at least state exactly what your facts are. There is "profitable" and there is "profitable enough."

I played CoH for years. I enjoyed the game and my time there (well over 3 years). It was probably the best MMORPG I have played yet. Let it go, already.

 

---

Not sure if serious.  Much of the financial are known, and it's almost a certainty that it brought in 4 million in profit anually.

---

Could you post a link that shows CoH profits?

 

It's spelled out really simply in the article attached to this thread.

---

Originally posted by Beatnik59

---

Originally posted by AlBQuirky  

---

Originally posted by adam_nox

---

Originally posted by AlBQuirky It kind of amazes me how all of these armchair biz-wizzes know what is "profitable" to any specific company and what is not.   After all is said and done and paid out, let's just say NCSoft makes a nickel on every game account on average. Is that a profit? Yup. Is it enough to stay in business? I highly doubt it. The investors may disagree with *your* idea of "profitable." Who has access to NCSoft's financials where they state clearly what CoH brought in for them? Anybody? Anybody? Beuhler? Than stop stating your opinions as facts. Or at least state exactly what your facts are. There is "profitable" and there is "profitable enough." I played CoH for years. I enjoyed the game and my time there (well over 3 years). It was probably the best MMORPG I have played yet. Let it go, already.  

---

Not sure if serious.  Much of the financial are known, and it's almost a certainty that it brought in 4 million in profit anually.

---

Could you post a link that shows CoH profits?  

---

It's spelled out really simply in the article attached to this thread.

---

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Hoplites

Originally posted by lizardbones
The thing with advertising is that it costs the same, no matter what you're advertising. Advertising for CoH would cost the same as GW2. Ditto for Champions and DCUO. After a certain point, it doesn't make sense to advertise older properties unless they are doing something new. Even if the property doubles in size, it won't make up what you've spent in advertising*.

** edit **
* Especially if you have something else you can advertise that will get more return for your investment.

I don't agree at all.  

You don't have to advertise the same quanity like you do for a new game, because word of mouth tends to take care of the rest.  But word of mouth starts to wane eventually, so new marketing campaigns that are cheap, but effective can still prove to be fruitful.  

City of Heroes having a recent expansion, for example (Going Rogue) with a box, is one way to promote a new marketing campaign. At least City of Heroes had exposure of box sets visible in gaming stores in recent years, but you can't say the same for Lineage 2.

Lineage 2 is NCSOFT's flagship game afterall, and yet how much advertising muscle do you see them spending on L2 North America?  That speaks volumes about how much they care about the western market.

No one is saying they should't focus primarily on the Asian market, where they make most of their money.  But it is incredibly myopic to not even market their own flagship game in North America.

As for someone else mentioning that they should sell their property they have shut down and sits idily by. They could, but investors have to force that pressure.  If I was an investor I probably would want a greater ROR on my investment, so it makes sense if it is plausible to make money off of what they are sitting on.  

Firstly, L2 is not NCs flagship title.  Blade and Soul and GW2 are now the flagship titles as of at least Q3 last year.

Aion and Lineage have outperformed L2 over the last few years.  Lineage is still more profitible than both and it's not even open in the West anymore.  Why should they market their profitible Asian titles in the West where players speak rudely about Korean grinders.  Westerners apparently don't like Korean style game design and we've made that clear.

As has been pointed out several times in the thread, there could be other factors in not selling the IP, factors that could cost more than a one off sale will recoup.  You want to see the title live so your only real conclusion is that it would be better business for all if they sold, but that's your reality, not theirs.

No I don't agree at all.

Lineage 2 is their baby...their game...they are a publisher for GW2 but that is an important distinction right there. 

As for marketing L2, yes they can if they want because L2 isn't the only grinder on the western market and based on the recent changes I wouldn't categorized L2 a grinder anymore.   

As for the selling of intellectual property that is how money is made these days unless you are living under a rock.  So, making money is what corporations are about afterall.  You keep making assumptions and you seem to have the same myopic vision NCSOFT exhibits which is ironic.

Originally posted by Hoplites

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Hoplites

Originally posted by lizardbones
The thing with advertising is that it costs the same, no matter what you're advertising. Advertising for CoH would cost the same as GW2. Ditto for Champions and DCUO. After a certain point, it doesn't make sense to advertise older properties unless they are doing something new. Even if the property doubles in size, it won't make up what you've spent in advertising*.

** edit **
* Especially if you have something else you can advertise that will get more return for your investment.

I don't agree at all.  

You don't have to advertise the same quanity like you do for a new game, because word of mouth tends to take care of the rest.  But word of mouth starts to wane eventually, so new marketing campaigns that are cheap, but effective can still prove to be fruitful.  

City of Heroes having a recent expansion, for example (Going Rogue) with a box, is one way to promote a new marketing campaign. At least City of Heroes had exposure of box sets visible in gaming stores in recent years, but you can't say the same for Lineage 2.

Lineage 2 is NCSOFT's flagship game afterall, and yet how much advertising muscle do you see them spending on L2 North America?  That speaks volumes about how much they care about the western market.

No one is saying they should't focus primarily on the Asian market, where they make most of their money.  But it is incredibly myopic to not even market their own flagship game in North America.

As for someone else mentioning that they should sell their property they have shut down and sits idily by. They could, but investors have to force that pressure.  If I was an investor I probably would want a greater ROR on my investment, so it makes sense if it is plausible to make money off of what they are sitting on.  

Firstly, L2 is not NCs flagship title.  Blade and Soul and GW2 are now the flagship titles as of at least Q3 last year.

Aion and Lineage have outperformed L2 over the last few years.  Lineage is still more profitible than both and it's not even open in the West anymore.  Why should they market their profitible Asian titles in the West where players speak rudely about Korean grinders.  Westerners apparently don't like Korean style game design and we've made that clear.

As has been pointed out several times in the thread, there could be other factors in not selling the IP, factors that could cost more than a one off sale will recoup.  You want to see the title live so your only real conclusion is that it would be better business for all if they sold, but that's your reality, not theirs.

No I don't agree at all.

Lineage 2 is their baby...their game...they are a publisher for GW2 but that is an important distinction right there. 

As for marketing L2, yes they can if they want because L2 isn't the only grinder on the western market and based on the recent changes I wouldn't categorized L2 a grinder anymore.   

As for the selling of intellectual property that is how money is made these days unless you are living under a rock.  So, making money is what corporations are about afterall.  You keep making assumptions and you seem to have the same myopic vision NCSOFT exhibits which is ironic.

Actually I got that from their 2012 Q3 financials.  The Q4 haven't been released yet.  If you go to the NCSoft corporate site in Korea and download the Q3 PDF you will see it says on the revenue page that B&S and GW2 are positioned well as the flagship titles of the company.  "Strong growth was achieved in US and EU, fueled by successful launch of GW2.
B&S and GW2 have firmly positioned themselves as main revenue drivers for the company."

Lineage out performed every other game but GW2 including B&S.  L2 was the lowest performing listed title.  Revenue by percent:  GW2 - 27%, L1 - 23%, B&S - 20%, Aion - 16%, L2 - 8%, and all others 6%.

ANet is a wholly owned subsidiary company of NCSoft.  NC is the publisher, but also the owner, just not the direct development studio.

On whether CoH was profitable?  Some of you have reported the downward trend of the game.  With the changes in US Taxes could CoH crossed its threshold prematurely?

There comes a point that the profits just are not enough for the hassle of maintaining a loosing battle.  NCSoft pulled the plug on a low yeilding situation.  I bet more and more of thier games will be based in Asia to stem off taxes.

Do I believe or not if CoH was profitable. Yes, they were. Anyone who bought the game when the x-pansion Going Rogue came out would have to have been a subscriber. Why do I say this? Basically when the game went FTP, it cut off everything that was good about the x-pansion. The new contumes and powers were not available in the FTP side, only the subscription. Before people jump up and down, it was in the Faq's and basically stated that in order to access Going Rogue you had to sub, I could not access any of the powers or costumes when I decided to give it a shot. Tried to keep going back and kept checking the website for any changes and none came.

I say that if your gonna cut off a big chunk from the FTP players, don't make it the stuff they have already paid for if they were former subscribers. It has the tendancy to piss people off. Played for almost  5 years from mid 2005 to early 2010. Took a break, then came back for Going Rogue and played till May 2011.  Took another break till after FTP, went live and saw that NCSoft no longer cared about people who had bought their products, they just wanted more money. Kept trying to get back into it, but was nagged by the feeling of" We got your money, go screw yourself if you don't want to sub to keep the stuff you paid for". Finally uninstalled in Jan 2012. Used to be a good game, but I think NCSoft bigwigs just started getting more dollar signs in their eyes and it was'nt coming from CoH enough.

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Starsman

 

There was NEVER a server merger in CoH.

 http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Servers

The European servers were merged with the American servers because of LOW POPULATION ISSUES. They had to open the game up so all players around the world could chose to play with those in other areas. Even their own WIKI shows 9 of the 15 servers with LOW populations even AFTER the world merging of servers.

And YES, it is a MERGER...even THEY called it one.

Right here on this very site as well as others there is an article that in Sept of 2008 City of Heroes had 125,000 subscribers, according to a press release by Paragon.

125,000 x 14.99 per month =  $1,873,750 x 12 months = 22,485,000

As SAID BY THE PERSON TELLING US THEY RETAINED 95%+ of its subscribers yet at the same time told us it made $12,000,000.

12 million is NOT 95-98% of 22.4 million.

This person is a flat out LIAR, I dont CARE if the game was GOOD or not or deserved to be shut down or NOT...he is a liar.

Do some reading and some math.  CoH servers were *NOT* merged - the list of servers and hosting location of the servers was merged.  There was some talk on the forums of merging a few very low population servers but this never happened.  Just google for "coh server merge" and you'll see.  Also, I'm pretty sure it's not 95-98% of the subscribers - it's 95-98% of subscribers month-on-month (98% over 4 years would be 38% of Sep 2008 so it either kept over 98% or added a fair number of new players that spent money).

Acussintg a corporation of shutting down a game because it was still profitable but the company is lying is really not that different than acussing them of not being able to do math and understand the difference between cost and profit.

  I played Cox for about 5 years so i can say it was easily one of the better MMO's i have played, most MMO communities remind me of the one wow has to be honest. I am really sorry for anyone that was still super attached to this game, but sorry games get the plug pulled cause they are not profitable if it was still making money it would be running. I have not played the game in years but the other issue of this games closing that bothered me is this is easily the best super hero MMO ever made cause champions and DCUO frankly suck if they were good they wouldn't have gone F2P in record time.