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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Browser Based Games the future for MMORPG's?

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39 posts found
  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1447

1/07/13 9:19:16 PM#21
Originally posted by Quizzical

At the moment, browser based means no modern graphics API support, which in turn means that you can't get all that much use out of the video card.  That massively cripples your performance.  That could change someday, but fixing it doesn't look imminent.

The inability to download the game and store it on your hard drive is also problematic.  As slow as hard drives are, they're still vastly faster than downloading off of the Internet.  That means that a browser-based game has to have very little data needed at any given time, which greatly restricts what you can do with it.

The other problem with browser-based games is that the developer can't entirely control what it's doing.  A game might work great on one browser and not run at all on another.  A game might work fine in one version of a browser, only to see the next version of the same browser break the game.

A standalone client gives you great control over what your program does.  You can write the exact source code that the video card will run.  You can specify which code runs in which threads at which priorities.  You can do that without any interference from a third-party browser.  And you don't have any risk of some other browser tab causing problems, crashing the browser, and bringing your game down with it.

Not only are all of those problems fixable, but they all have the same fix:  make a standalone client for your game.

Browser-based is fine for dinky little games that you play for ten minutes and then move on.  But if you're trying to do something more complex like an MMORPG, even if you want a browser-based version, it's foolhardy to not also offer a standalone client option.

I wish you would quit saying these things. You seem quite behind the times stating such things. It seems like you last read about this stuff in 1999.

 

I linked you to different storage methods - three at least that utilize local storage in another thread. If you haven't been keeping up with browsers then you don't know that they often create multiple exes to avoid the "tab" crashing the browser issue. My flash breaks daily a few times. I kill the flash application and the web pages can then recover. I also linked to you another time methods of transferring data in real-time as if you were on a UDP connection. Does your standalone client have access to send out web workers doing up to 20 calculations server side utilizing stronger resources if the host computer can't keep up? No, you don't.

 

This whole "all browsers aren't the same", yes, and all operating systems aren't the same and all video cards aren't the same and there are more options of video card and operating system combinations than there are browsers because browsers only go by operating system. They will always have less combinations to test than physical hardware combinations because machines, unlike browsers are not forced to upgrade as often. Lots of people have their browsers set to auto-update, are people updating their video cards as often, no, they aren't because it's hardware and not software. That means that over time there will always be more people that are either up to date or can be up to date free of cost with a link as compared to supporting years worth of outdated hardware.

 

If you worked in web you would know how SLOOOOOW the standards change. HTML5 is not due to be released as final for years and people are already working in it. We don't get surprised by browser support. We watch it evolve over years and make our petitions for what we most need for the things we do most often. It's not one sided exchange. We don't just "get" whatever the browsers give, we are allowed to complain and tell them what we want supported. That's why they all have developer networks, to get the feedback and know what the popular things are ahead of time so that they can refine them. Every one of the browsers want the nerdiest of nerds behind them to prothelytize their product because they are all fighting for market share. They want us to spread their word so they try to please us to get us to suggest their product to our employers and those that know that of all people, we should know the best browser to use. We are also the people that will advertise our server logs when they come out high in hits.

  madazz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1306

1/07/13 9:42:15 PM#22
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Quizzical

At the moment, browser based means no modern graphics API support, which in turn means that you can't get all that much use out of the video card.  That massively cripples your performance.  That could change someday, but fixing it doesn't look imminent.

The inability to download the game and store it on your hard drive is also problematic.  As slow as hard drives are, they're still vastly faster than downloading off of the Internet.  That means that a browser-based game has to have very little data needed at any given time, which greatly restricts what you can do with it.

The other problem with browser-based games is that the developer can't entirely control what it's doing.  A game might work great on one browser and not run at all on another.  A game might work fine in one version of a browser, only to see the next version of the same browser break the game.

A standalone client gives you great control over what your program does.  You can write the exact source code that the video card will run.  You can specify which code runs in which threads at which priorities.  You can do that without any interference from a third-party browser.  And you don't have any risk of some other browser tab causing problems, crashing the browser, and bringing your game down with it.

Not only are all of those problems fixable, but they all have the same fix:  make a standalone client for your game.

Browser-based is fine for dinky little games that you play for ten minutes and then move on.  But if you're trying to do something more complex like an MMORPG, even if you want a browser-based version, it's foolhardy to not also offer a standalone client option.

I wish you would quit saying these things. You seem quite behind the times stating such things. It seems like you last read about this stuff in 1999.

 

I linked you to different storage methods - three at least that utilize local storage in another thread. If you haven't been keeping up with browsers then you don't know that they often create multiple exes to avoid the "tab" crashing the browser issue. My flash breaks daily a few times. I kill the flash application and the web pages can then recover. I also linked to you another time methods of transferring data in real-time as if you were on a UDP connection. Does your standalone client have access to send out web workers doing up to 20 calculations server side utilizing stronger resources if the host computer can't keep up? No, you don't.

 

This whole "all browsers aren't the same", yes, and all operating systems aren't the same and all video cards aren't the same and there are more options of video card and operating system combinations than there are browsers because browsers only go by operating system. They will always have less combinations to test than physical hardware combinations because machines, unlike browsers are not forced to upgrade as often. Lots of people have their browsers set to auto-update, are people updating their video cards as often, no, they aren't because it's hardware and not software. That means that over time there will always be more people that are either up to date or can be up to date free of cost with a link as compared to supporting years worth of outdated hardware.

Agreed. 

The industry can head in so many directions right now too. There are leaps being made in regards to lightweight game engines too. And like other things in different industries, they will one day reach parity with the big boys. Then you have streaming technology and more accessible internet. In my area it is becoming more and more common for people and business's to have fibre optics. There are so many facets of browser based gaming to look at and I haven't even remotely touched based on them. 

I've already seen some ridiculously great looking browser games too ;)

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

1/07/13 10:46:52 PM#23

Pft I hope not. I tried various browser MMOs, and most of them crashed, disconnected some didn't even start. (Hello 4story!)

CRAP!

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  SeiTieS

Novice Member

Joined: 11/29/12
Posts: 21

1/08/13 12:27:24 AM#24
On my opinion, nope not yet.. i think there will be the last batch if MMORPG that will really satisfy the satidfaction of the players before it will go to that point.
  dave6660

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2344

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

1/08/13 1:38:37 PM#25

I asked my magic eight ball and it told me browser games are not the future.  Sorry.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

1/08/13 4:46:31 PM#26
Originally posted by dave6660

I asked my magic eight ball and it told me browser games are not the future.  Sorry.

     I guess that settles it then...The magic eight ball has settled alot of issues over the years....Are you sure you shook it up really good before getting the answer??....It wasn't at an angle or anything was it?

  dave6660

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2344

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

1/08/13 8:35:44 PM#27
Originally posted by Theocritus
Originally posted by dave6660

I asked my magic eight ball and it told me browser games are not the future.  Sorry.

     I guess that settles it then...The magic eight ball has settled alot of issues over the years....Are you sure you shook it up really good before getting the answer??....It wasn't at an angle or anything was it?

I can try again if you like but the magic eight ball doesn't lie.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  steamtank

Novice Member

Joined: 7/10/09
Posts: 390

1/08/13 8:37:45 PM#28

No.

I can't get into browser games. They just don't have the same potential

  Marirranya

Novice Member

Joined: 12/13/12
Posts: 154

1/08/13 9:30:33 PM#29
dont want to use facebook or a java platform to play my mmos =/

There are people who play games and then there are gamers.

http://alzplz.blogspot.com

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13402

1/08/13 10:02:53 PM#30
Originally posted by Marirranya
dont want to use facebook or a java platform to play my mmos =/

Java is just another programming language, and doesn't chain you to a browser.

I agree with you on Facebook, though.  But browser-based doesn't have to mean Facebook.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13402

1/08/13 10:28:08 PM#31
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Quizzical

At the moment, browser based means no modern graphics API support, which in turn means that you can't get all that much use out of the video card.  That massively cripples your performance.  That could change someday, but fixing it doesn't look imminent.

The inability to download the game and store it on your hard drive is also problematic.  As slow as hard drives are, they're still vastly faster than downloading off of the Internet.  That means that a browser-based game has to have very little data needed at any given time, which greatly restricts what you can do with it.

The other problem with browser-based games is that the developer can't entirely control what it's doing.  A game might work great on one browser and not run at all on another.  A game might work fine in one version of a browser, only to see the next version of the same browser break the game.

A standalone client gives you great control over what your program does.  You can write the exact source code that the video card will run.  You can specify which code runs in which threads at which priorities.  You can do that without any interference from a third-party browser.  And you don't have any risk of some other browser tab causing problems, crashing the browser, and bringing your game down with it.

Not only are all of those problems fixable, but they all have the same fix:  make a standalone client for your game.

Browser-based is fine for dinky little games that you play for ten minutes and then move on.  But if you're trying to do something more complex like an MMORPG, even if you want a browser-based version, it's foolhardy to not also offer a standalone client option.

I wish you would quit saying these things. You seem quite behind the times stating such things. It seems like you last read about this stuff in 1999.

 

I linked you to different storage methods - three at least that utilize local storage in another thread. If you haven't been keeping up with browsers then you don't know that they often create multiple exes to avoid the "tab" crashing the browser issue. My flash breaks daily a few times. I kill the flash application and the web pages can then recover. I also linked to you another time methods of transferring data in real-time as if you were on a UDP connection. Does your standalone client have access to send out web workers doing up to 20 calculations server side utilizing stronger resources if the host computer can't keep up? No, you don't.

 

This whole "all browsers aren't the same", yes, and all operating systems aren't the same and all video cards aren't the same and there are more options of video card and operating system combinations than there are browsers because browsers only go by operating system. They will always have less combinations to test than physical hardware combinations because machines, unlike browsers are not forced to upgrade as often. Lots of people have their browsers set to auto-update, are people updating their video cards as often, no, they aren't because it's hardware and not software. That means that over time there will always be more people that are either up to date or can be up to date free of cost with a link as compared to supporting years worth of outdated hardware.

 

If you worked in web you would know how SLOOOOOW the standards change. HTML5 is not due to be released as final for years and people are already working in it. We don't get surprised by browser support. We watch it evolve over years and make our petitions for what we most need for the things we do most often. It's not one sided exchange. We don't just "get" whatever the browsers give, we are allowed to complain and tell them what we want supported. That's why they all have developer networks, to get the feedback and know what the popular things are ahead of time so that they can refine them. Every one of the browsers want the nerdiest of nerds behind them to prothelytize their product because they are all fighting for market share. They want us to spread their word so they try to please us to get us to suggest their product to our employers and those that know that of all people, we should know the best browser to use. We are also the people that will advertise our server logs when they come out high in hits.

On the storage side, exactly what capabilities do you have?  Can you store gigabytes of data for your game on a user's hard drive, and then get the browser to leave it alone even if your game isn't played for months, allow the user to still access it from a different browser if he switches browsers or has to reinstall his browser, and then make it easy and intuitively obvious how to delete your game entirely if the end user decides he wants to quit your game and free up space?

If you can do all of that, then great.  If not, then you're stuck at "can store some stuff on the player's hard drive, but just not in the ways that you need to in order to make a browser-based game viable".  So, can you?  (It's a serious question; I don't know the answer.)  Though if you can, then what stops rogue web sites from cluttering your hard drive with useless garbage?

-----

Yes, there are different operating systems and different processors and different video cards.  And yes, that's something that you have to cope with when designing a game.  But you have to deal with all of that whether it's browser-based or not, and browser-based adds different browsers to the mix.  Updating to the latest version of a browser doesn't magically make hardware capable of doing things that it couldn't before.  (30 seconds to load an all-text page in Netscape 6 on a Pentium II was not fun.)

The problem with browser updates breaking things isn't "but what if the standards change?"  Rather, it's "what if a bug in the browser makes it not play nicely with your game?"  I'm sure you're aware that there are many web sites that will display properly in one browser and not another.  Or display smoothly in one browser and be really choppy in another.

-----

I see that you didn't address the performance problems from not having access to either modern graphics API through a browser.  That doesn't mean that a game can't be made to run smoothly.  But it does put you at a huge disadvantage in that department, which will greatly restrict what you can do graphically.

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5577

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

1/08/13 10:32:41 PM#32

browser based mmos wont be the future. They are viable options for like.... indie mmos, not full mmos that work best as clients IMO

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1447

1/08/13 11:20:29 PM#33
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Quizzical
...snip
...snip

On the storage side, exactly what capabilities do you have?  Can you store gigabytes of data for your game on a user's hard drive, and then get the browser to leave it alone even if your game isn't played for months, allow the user to still access it from a different browser if he switches browsers or has to reinstall his browser, and then make it easy and intuitively obvious how to delete your game entirely if the end user decides he wants to quit your game and free up space?

If you can do all of that, then great.  If not, then you're stuck at "can store some stuff on the player's hard drive, but just not in the ways that you need to in order to make a browser-based game viable".  So, can you?  (It's a serious question; I don't know the answer.)  Though if you can, then what stops rogue web sites from cluttering your hard drive with useless garbage?

-----

Yes, there are different operating systems and different processors and different video cards.  And yes, that's something that you have to cope with when designing a game.  But you have to deal with all of that whether it's browser-based or not, and browser-based adds different browsers to the mix.  Updating to the latest version of a browser doesn't magically make hardware capable of doing things that it couldn't before.  (30 seconds to load an all-text page in Netscape 6 on a Pentium II was not fun.)

The problem with browser updates breaking things isn't "but what if the standards change?"  Rather, it's "what if a bug in the browser makes it not play nicely with your game?"  I'm sure you're aware that there are many web sites that will display properly in one browser and not another.  Or display smoothly in one browser and be really choppy in another.

-----

I see that you didn't address the performance problems from not having access to either modern graphics API through a browser.  That doesn't mean that a game can't be made to run smoothly.  But it does put you at a huge disadvantage in that department, which will greatly restrict what you can do graphically.

These should give you enough info on storage and more than I can type out with better formatting.

http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/offline/storage/

http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/file/filesystem/

 

 

I had just made a post talking about what I know to discuss hardware acceleration. Just figured you might not have read everything yet so might read it after your post.

This was in the post - quoting myself lol

"Here's something on WebGL which is the most true 3d we have right now. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/web-browser-performance-standard-html5,3013-10.html "

 

 

Another on WebGL http://www.khronos.org/webgl/

I was involved with o3d when it came out from Google, made some documentation for it then they dropped it as a standalone but this was the old place we talked about it. http://code.google.com/p/o3d/

Because I saw a company drop it so quickly that's why I jumped back onto standards based solutions. W3c seems to be more reliable, Google wasn't. I put a lot of time into learning their system then it went away :S

 

I yap a lot about SVG but it's only 2d so I don't expect it will be nearly as popular for acceleration. It's just my pet pony that I love to pet, imagine, scaling your mmo graphics and I want to do that. Of course, you can build 3d on top of 2d if you are really a go-getter.  I want the majority of my graphics to be generated, that's the nerd appeal. This was back when IE really started talking about their support. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/03/08/comparing-hardware-accelerated-svg-across-browsers-with-santa-s-workshop.aspx

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13402

1/08/13 11:48:10 PM#34
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Quizzical
...snip
...snip

On the storage side, exactly what capabilities do you have?  Can you store gigabytes of data for your game on a user's hard drive, and then get the browser to leave it alone even if your game isn't played for months, allow the user to still access it from a different browser if he switches browsers or has to reinstall his browser, and then make it easy and intuitively obvious how to delete your game entirely if the end user decides he wants to quit your game and free up space?

If you can do all of that, then great.  If not, then you're stuck at "can store some stuff on the player's hard drive, but just not in the ways that you need to in order to make a browser-based game viable".  So, can you?  (It's a serious question; I don't know the answer.)  Though if you can, then what stops rogue web sites from cluttering your hard drive with useless garbage?

-----

Yes, there are different operating systems and different processors and different video cards.  And yes, that's something that you have to cope with when designing a game.  But you have to deal with all of that whether it's browser-based or not, and browser-based adds different browsers to the mix.  Updating to the latest version of a browser doesn't magically make hardware capable of doing things that it couldn't before.  (30 seconds to load an all-text page in Netscape 6 on a Pentium II was not fun.)

The problem with browser updates breaking things isn't "but what if the standards change?"  Rather, it's "what if a bug in the browser makes it not play nicely with your game?"  I'm sure you're aware that there are many web sites that will display properly in one browser and not another.  Or display smoothly in one browser and be really choppy in another.

-----

I see that you didn't address the performance problems from not having access to either modern graphics API through a browser.  That doesn't mean that a game can't be made to run smoothly.  But it does put you at a huge disadvantage in that department, which will greatly restrict what you can do graphically.

These should give you enough info on storage and more than I can type out with better formatting.

http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/offline/storage/

http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/file/filesystem/

 

 

I had just made a post talking about what I know to discuss hardware acceleration. Just figured you might not have read everything yet so might read it after your post.

This was in the post - quoting myself lol

"Here's something on WebGL which is the most true 3d we have right now. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/web-browser-performance-standard-html5,3013-10.html "

 

 

Another on WebGL http://www.khronos.org/webgl/

I was involved with o3d when it came out from Google, made some documentation for it then they dropped it as a standalone but this was the old place we talked about it. http://code.google.com/p/o3d/

Because I saw a company drop it so quickly that's why I jumped back onto standards based solutions. W3c seems to be more reliable, Google wasn't. I put a lot of time into learning their system then it went away :S

 

I yap a lot about SVG but it's only 2d so I don't expect it will be nearly as popular for acceleration. It's just my pet pony that I love to pet, imagine, scaling your mmo graphics and I want to do that. Of course, you can build 3d on top of 2d if you are really a go-getter.  I want the majority of my graphics to be generated, that's the nerd appeal. This was back when IE really started talking about their support. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/03/08/comparing-hardware-accelerated-svg-across-browsers-with-santa-s-workshop.aspx

For file storage, I didn't want a "here's how you code it".  I wanted a "can you do the necessary things to make it viable for games"?

WebGL is not a modern graphics API.  Perhaps it's recent, but designed for a specific purpose where it's assumed that you don't need much in the way of graphics performance.  It's closely based on OpenGL ES 2.0, which is over five years older than the latest OpenGL ES 3.0, which itself is only roughly equivalent to the ancient DirectX 9.0c.

Now, depending on what you want to do, WebGL may offer everything you need.  But it's not anywhere near being a viable alternative to DirectX or OpenGL.

  Barrikor

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/07
Posts: 317

1/08/13 11:55:23 PM#35

Massively multiplayer browser-based games ARE the future, but they are evolving as their own genera (BBG / PBBG).


They won't ever replace stand-alone exe's, but I believe they'll become far more popular with the general audience in the next few years.


The internet and the web are by their very nature massively-multiplayer, the forums here on Mmorpg.com, for example, are capable of allowing 1000's of users to interact. Harvesting this same technology for making games is a logical advance.


(I'm kinda biased here, since I plan on making a PBBG myself, if I ever actually finish my framework... which will function as the game's engine)

Grand Canyon Studios | Projects: Pith Framework (0.5), CactusGUI (0.3) | Planning: Ant Battles, Pirate Tide

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3735

RIP City of Heroes!

1/09/13 12:11:30 AM#36
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Quizzical
...snip
...snip

On the storage side, exactly what capabilities do you have?  Can you store gigabytes of data for your game on a user's hard drive, and then get the browser to leave it alone even if your game isn't played for months, allow the user to still access it from a different browser if he switches browsers or has to reinstall his browser, and then make it easy and intuitively obvious how to delete your game entirely if the end user decides he wants to quit your game and free up space?

If you can do all of that, then great.  If not, then you're stuck at "can store some stuff on the player's hard drive, but just not in the ways that you need to in order to make a browser-based game viable".  So, can you?  (It's a serious question; I don't know the answer.)  Though if you can, then what stops rogue web sites from cluttering your hard drive with useless garbage?

-----

Yes, there are different operating systems and different processors and different video cards.  And yes, that's something that you have to cope with when designing a game.  But you have to deal with all of that whether it's browser-based or not, and browser-based adds different browsers to the mix.  Updating to the latest version of a browser doesn't magically make hardware capable of doing things that it couldn't before.  (30 seconds to load an all-text page in Netscape 6 on a Pentium II was not fun.)

The problem with browser updates breaking things isn't "but what if the standards change?"  Rather, it's "what if a bug in the browser makes it not play nicely with your game?"  I'm sure you're aware that there are many web sites that will display properly in one browser and not another.  Or display smoothly in one browser and be really choppy in another.

-----

I see that you didn't address the performance problems from not having access to either modern graphics API through a browser.  That doesn't mean that a game can't be made to run smoothly.  But it does put you at a huge disadvantage in that department, which will greatly restrict what you can do graphically.

These should give you enough info on storage and more than I can type out with better formatting.

http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/offline/storage/

http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/file/filesystem/

 

 

I had just made a post talking about what I know to discuss hardware acceleration. Just figured you might not have read everything yet so might read it after your post.

This was in the post - quoting myself lol

"Here's something on WebGL which is the most true 3d we have right now. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/web-browser-performance-standard-html5,3013-10.html "

 

 

Another on WebGL http://www.khronos.org/webgl/

I was involved with o3d when it came out from Google, made some documentation for it then they dropped it as a standalone but this was the old place we talked about it. http://code.google.com/p/o3d/

Because I saw a company drop it so quickly that's why I jumped back onto standards based solutions. W3c seems to be more reliable, Google wasn't. I put a lot of time into learning their system then it went away :S

 

I yap a lot about SVG but it's only 2d so I don't expect it will be nearly as popular for acceleration. It's just my pet pony that I love to pet, imagine, scaling your mmo graphics and I want to do that. Of course, you can build 3d on top of 2d if you are really a go-getter.  I want the majority of my graphics to be generated, that's the nerd appeal. This was back when IE really started talking about their support. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/03/08/comparing-hardware-accelerated-svg-across-browsers-with-santa-s-workshop.aspx

For file storage, I didn't want a "here's how you code it".  I wanted a "can you do the necessary things to make it viable for games"?

WebGL is not a modern graphics API.  Perhaps it's recent, but designed for a specific purpose where it's assumed that you don't need much in the way of graphics performance.  It's closely based on OpenGL ES 2.0, which is over five years older than the latest OpenGL ES 3.0, which itself is only roughly equivalent to the ancient DirectX 9.0c.

Now, depending on what you want to do, WebGL may offer everything you need.  But it's not anywhere near being a viable alternative to DirectX or OpenGL.

 Most of what you are complaining about as issues have people working on them.   It isn't not there today, but will eventually exist. 

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1447

1/09/13 12:12:56 AM#37
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Quizzical
...snip
...snip

On the storage side, exactly what capabilities do you have?  Can you store gigabytes of data for your game on a user's hard drive, and then get the browser to leave it alone even if your game isn't played for months, allow the user to still access it from a different browser if he switches browsers or has to reinstall his browser, and then make it easy and intuitively obvious how to delete your game entirely if the end user decides he wants to quit your game and free up space?

If you can do all of that, then great.  If not, then you're stuck at "can store some stuff on the player's hard drive, but just not in the ways that you need to in order to make a browser-based game viable".  So, can you?  (It's a serious question; I don't know the answer.)  Though if you can, then what stops rogue web sites from cluttering your hard drive with useless garbage?

-----

Yes, there are different operating systems and different processors and different video cards.  And yes, that's something that you have to cope with when designing a game.  But you have to deal with all of that whether it's browser-based or not, and browser-based adds different browsers to the mix.  Updating to the latest version of a browser doesn't magically make hardware capable of doing things that it couldn't before.  (30 seconds to load an all-text page in Netscape 6 on a Pentium II was not fun.)

The problem with browser updates breaking things isn't "but what if the standards change?"  Rather, it's "what if a bug in the browser makes it not play nicely with your game?"  I'm sure you're aware that there are many web sites that will display properly in one browser and not another.  Or display smoothly in one browser and be really choppy in another.

-----

I see that you didn't address the performance problems from not having access to either modern graphics API through a browser.  That doesn't mean that a game can't be made to run smoothly.  But it does put you at a huge disadvantage in that department, which will greatly restrict what you can do graphically.

These should give you enough info on storage and more than I can type out with better formatting.

http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/offline/storage/

http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/file/filesystem/

 

 

I had just made a post talking about what I know to discuss hardware acceleration. Just figured you might not have read everything yet so might read it after your post.

This was in the post - quoting myself lol

"Here's something on WebGL which is the most true 3d we have right now. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/web-browser-performance-standard-html5,3013-10.html "

 

 

Another on WebGL http://www.khronos.org/webgl/

I was involved with o3d when it came out from Google, made some documentation for it then they dropped it as a standalone but this was the old place we talked about it. http://code.google.com/p/o3d/

Because I saw a company drop it so quickly that's why I jumped back onto standards based solutions. W3c seems to be more reliable, Google wasn't. I put a lot of time into learning their system then it went away :S

 

I yap a lot about SVG but it's only 2d so I don't expect it will be nearly as popular for acceleration. It's just my pet pony that I love to pet, imagine, scaling your mmo graphics and I want to do that. Of course, you can build 3d on top of 2d if you are really a go-getter.  I want the majority of my graphics to be generated, that's the nerd appeal. This was back when IE really started talking about their support. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/03/08/comparing-hardware-accelerated-svg-across-browsers-with-santa-s-workshop.aspx

For file storage, I didn't want a "here's how you code it".  I wanted a "can you do the necessary things to make it viable for games"?

WebGL is not a modern graphics API.  Perhaps it's recent, but designed for a specific purpose where it's assumed that you don't need much in the way of graphics performance.  It's closely based on OpenGL ES 2.0, which is over five years older than the latest OpenGL ES 3.0, which itself is only roughly equivalent to the ancient DirectX 9.0c.

Now, depending on what you want to do, WebGL may offer everything you need.  But it's not anywhere near being a viable alternative to DirectX or OpenGL.

That site doesn't go thru coding it as the important part, it gives you the high level overview it would take me time to type out. I'm not trying to teach you how to do it. For that I would have linked to W3C.

So, you are saying if it can't be "even steven" and the browser can't do everything as good as the standalone then it can't possibly compete. We can't offer you that, we are talking about the future, not today. It's new technology, it will need time to grow before it is up to your standards it seems.

I don't have a completed game to show you what works empirically across all browsers and will in a year. I know things are improving from what they were and I know that the future is just as bright, that's it. We're forecasting here not going by today. These people would probably release earlier http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F22IvhUtrmM They already have their 2d version online.

 

  ZombieKen

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

1/09/13 12:23:59 AM#38

I don't see it happening anytime soon.  There have been some interesting attempts to get platform native code (fast and full featured) running in browsers using plugins, but they're still locked into the given platform.  That defeats one selling point for browser games namely cross-platform compatibility.

 

On the other side, browser games do seem to fill one niche, namely cross-platform on phones, ARM tablets, and PCs, with the PC version running in a browser.  The developer behind Pocket Legends has this in use quite effectively.  Even with all platforms sharing the same worlds.

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13402

1/09/13 11:17:34 AM#39
Originally posted by greenreen

That site doesn't go thru coding it as the important part, it gives you the high level overview it would take me time to type out. I'm not trying to teach you how to do it. For that I would have linked to W3C.

So, you are saying if it can't be "even steven" and the browser can't do everything as good as the standalone then it can't possibly compete. We can't offer you that, we are talking about the future, not today. It's new technology, it will need time to grow before it is up to your standards it seems.

I don't have a completed game to show you what works empirically across all browsers and will in a year. I know things are improving from what they were and I know that the future is just as bright, that's it. We're forecasting here not going by today. These people would probably release earlier http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F22IvhUtrmM They already have their 2d version online.

"There are people working on it" is a long way away from "it's going to be viable for gaming soon".  Yes, browser-based capabilities will greatly increase with time.  But so will the capabilities of what you can do with a standalone application.  There's no chance of browser-based catching up in the foreseeable future, and not much chance of it getting particularly close, even.

One problem that probably is fixable entirely is that they could make a modern graphics API that you can run in a browser.  If they can have WebGL, then I don't see any reason why they couldn't have Web GL 2.0 with the full capabilities of OpenGL 4.3.  But they don't yet, and that doesn't seem to be coming soon.

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