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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are MMORPG.com members sandbox players, or all of a sudden people turned their back on Themparks?

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174 posts found
  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1630

1/05/13 2:28:39 PM#141
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Considering there have been just about no successful themepark MMOs in the last 8 years, I'd say it's neither all of a sudden, nor is it just this MMORPG.com community.

 Exactly. 

It's staring us right in the face.

Plane as day.

When most of the AAA themeparks released can't sustain themselves under a subscription model, then the genre is speaking very clearly.  They'll play crap when it's free, but not when you've got to pay monthly for it. 

And still people insist no one really wants to play a sandbox.  Just because devlopers keep trying and failing, obviously it's the players and not the games themselves. 

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

1/05/13 2:46:20 PM#142
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Considering there have been just about no successful themepark MMOs in the last 8 years, I'd say it's neither all of a sudden, nor is it just this MMORPG.com community.

 Exactly. 

It's staring us right in the face.

Plane as day.

When most of the AAA themeparks released can't sustain themselves under a subscription model, then the genre is speaking very clearly.  They'll play crap when it's free, but not when you've got to pay monthly for it. 

And still people insist no one really wants to play a sandbox.  Just because devlopers keep trying and failing, obviously it's the players and not the games themselves. 

The conclusion that isn't supported, at this point, is that sandboxes will ultimately perform any differently.

Just another brand of Hype, yes?

We'll see how things work out, after this first wave is released and we all finish arguing over what is and is not a True Sandbox™.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Caldicot

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/10/07
Posts: 392

Hobbes was right, Rousseau was wrong.

1/05/13 2:53:46 PM#143
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Considering there have been just about no successful themepark MMOs in the last 8 years, I'd say it's neither all of a sudden, nor is it just this MMORPG.com community.

 Exactly. 

It's staring us right in the face.

Plane as day.

When most of the AAA themeparks released can't sustain themselves under a subscription model, then the genre is speaking very clearly.  They'll play crap when it's free, but not when you've got to pay monthly for it. 

And still people insist no one really wants to play a sandbox.  Just because devlopers keep trying and failing, obviously it's the players and not the games themselves. 

The conclusion that isn't supported, at this point, is that sandboxes will ultimately perform any differently.

Just another brand of Hype, yes?

Pretty much yeah... It's just buzz words and we haven't defined our terms. But thats not the real issue, the only thing that matters is whether a game is fun to play or not, which usually is discovered after a few hours of playing.

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

  hehey

Novice Member

Joined: 4/28/10
Posts: 77

1/05/13 3:02:53 PM#144
Its obvious why archeage is the most hyped, there is no bullshit, there is no NDA, XL Games have promised a lot of things and litteraly every single one of those promises can already be seen completed in Beta videos all over the net, which is very unusual in the MMO industry what with most MMO's launching incomplete. There is no NDA so people dont have to leave things up to fate or hope or whatever, they can see for themselves.

"I will Turn your name into a synonym for weakness"

  paulytheb

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/06/12
Posts: 200

1/05/13 3:06:18 PM#145

At this point I would simply be happy to get a new game where I did not know Exactly how to play from start to endgame within an hour of logging in for the first time.

1) buy game/install/press start

2) look around for a few minutes in newbie zone.

3) suicide run to main town.

4) see EVERYTHING the game sells or offers to max levels in stores or on dummys or preview mode.

5) Tab target something - press 1-   maybe just aim and press 1.

6) Ding !

7) Ok gonna throw press 2 into the mix now.

8) Tab target something hit 1 , pause half sec, press 2.

9) Ding !

10) Uninstall/burn/cry

( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)

An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.

  User Deleted
1/05/13 3:08:50 PM#146
I've said this before, and I'll say it again.  This site (it's forum community, not it's writers) is chock full of MMO hipters, who basically don't like anything that's popular, and instead preach about the more fringe stuff.
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

1/05/13 3:12:18 PM#147
Originally posted by paulytheb

At this point I would simply be happy to get a new game where I did not know Exactly how to play from start to endgame within an hour of logging in for the first time.

1) buy game/install/press start

2) find out just how much time you will be required to spend gathering and crafting and fishing and cooking.

(there are no steps 3-9)

10) Uninstall/burn/cry

Can you understand why this type of distortion cuts both ways?

Or why no mmo is ever the answer for everyone?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  User Deleted
1/05/13 3:12:48 PM#148
Originally posted by hehey
Its obvious why archeage is the most hyped, there is no bullshit, there is no NDA, XL Games have promised a lot of things and litteraly every single one of those promises can already be seen completed in Beta videos all over the net, which is very unusual in the MMO industry what with most MMO's launching incomplete. There is no NDA so people dont have to leave things up to fate or hope or whatever, they can see for themselves.

You're forgetting about the part where it's being developed by a Korean game company, which is hardly a good thing for most people due to the general simplicity and grindy nature of such games.  It's great that it's a sandbox and all, but the game is going to fail pretty hard here once people realize that.

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1630

1/05/13 3:21:15 PM#149
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Considering there have been just about no successful themepark MMOs in the last 8 years, I'd say it's neither all of a sudden, nor is it just this MMORPG.com community.

 Exactly. 

It's staring us right in the face.

Plane as day.

When most of the AAA themeparks released can't sustain themselves under a subscription model, then the genre is speaking very clearly.  They'll play crap when it's free, but not when you've got to pay monthly for it. 

And still people insist no one really wants to play a sandbox.  Just because devlopers keep trying and failing, obviously it's the players and not the games themselves. 

The conclusion that isn't supported, at this point, is that sandboxes will ultimately perform any differently.

Just another brand of Hype, yes?

We'll see how things work out, after this first wave is released and we all finish arguing over what is and is not a True Sandbox™.

 That's not really what I was getting at though. 

I"m saying that the people who keep saying that people don't really want to play a sandbox, and use the fact that most every AAA mmo released is a themepark as "proof" that that's what people want to play. 

I"m saying, no, developers have not been having any success with themeparks.  If they had been having success with them, they wouldn't switch to F2P and they'd be able to exceed subscription numbers of the first MMO released; which were harder, and either more sandboxish in nature or were sandboxes period. 

 

Rift is considered one of the more successfull MMO's to release after WoW, it doesn't have that many more subscirbers than UO does today. 

Lineage 2 is NOTHING like WoW.  It's not realy a sandbox MMO, just more sandboxy then most themeparks.  It's the only MMO that ever matched Blizzard in subscirption numbers. (It's suprising how many people don't realize this.  Lineage 2 had as many people playing it as WoW did at one point worldwide.  It only went F2P because NCsoft is effectively finished" with it.)

I'm not saying that sandboxes will fair better, I'm saying themeparks have not been the smashing success peopel keep "hyping" them to have been.  What themepark sinse WoW has exceeded a million subs without being free to play?  How about 750 thousand subs?  500 thousand?  None if you think that the only AAA developed MMO's are western developed ones, which is wrong and typically what people are implying when they say AAA.  The world doesn't start and stop outside Asia, and Asia has a lot of AAA MMO developers.  Western gaming culture, in particular the MMO one, has a horrible tendency to practice a strange form of video game racism.  Asian MMO's are always looked down on. 

EVE just passed 450 thousand subscribers though, and is one of the last subscription based MMO's that has continually seen growth where all others have had to switch to F2P in order to survive. 

Gamers have been speaking with there wallets for many years, and we've been saying we're not willing to pay a monthly fee for themaprk MMO's, even AAA developed ones. 

 

People seem to refuse to accept a simple fact.  Gamers prefer more freedom, not less, and themeparks are the complete opposite of that. 

WoW is a freak of nature and doesn't really represent what the typical gamer prefers.  We have typically shown more support for sandbox or more sandboxy styled RPGs, the MMO genre is just lagging behind, and the Asian developers are the first to "get it". 

WoW was not a "bad" game, and the first western developer to create a sandbox with that same level of polish is going to be the next WoW.  A lot of people around here simply refuse to believe this because they don't like not having direction, and the it's the East that's doing it first and people have a silly dislike of Eastern MMO's. 

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

1/05/13 3:23:31 PM#150
Originally posted by Uhwop
People seem to refuse to accept a simple fact.  Gamers prefer more freedom, not less, and themeparks are the complete opposite of that.

Because your 'simple fact' isn't true, certainly not in all cases?

(Substitute "I" for "gamers" and you can make a "fact".) (Substutute "verteran gamers" for "gamers" even, and you'll at least be a little closer to "fact")

Let me illustrate.  Jane the Homemaker has seen her kids playing around in a game, seems like they're having fun.  She's never played this kind of game before...even (possibly) not any games.

Is EVE the game for Jane?  High overhead, steep learning curve, sparse (well used to be anyway) documentation?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17019

1/05/13 3:28:25 PM#151
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Considering there have been just about no successful themepark MMOs in the last 8 years, I'd say it's neither all of a sudden, nor is it just this MMORPG.com community.

 Exactly. 

It's staring us right in the face.

Plane as day.

When most of the AAA themeparks released can't sustain themselves under a subscription model, then the genre is speaking very clearly.  They'll play crap when it's free, but not when you've got to pay monthly for it. 

And still people insist no one really wants to play a sandbox.  Just because devlopers keep trying and failing, obviously it's the players and not the games themselves. 

Except that isn't true at all.

Themeparks that are not doing well and can't sustain a subscription aren't doing well just because they are themeparks or have a subscription.

Go ahead. Name some themeparks and let's really look at why they had issues? Conan had issues at launch, same with Warhammer.

SWToR's issues, besides that it wasn't the game that others wanted, were more because people ran out of things to do once they ran out of story. And many weren't interested in starting a new character which is what the devs were counting on.

Aion's issues were that it was similiar enough to WoW to attrack WoW players but not similiar enough to satisfy WoW players. Longer leveling (though not nearly as long as many Korean games), pvp that wasn't consensual, and an unclear endgame that seemed to require a lot of grinding for better gear.

So many themeparks were released that had bugs, bad "end game" lack of content in certain areas, etc.

People will buy and pay a subscription for a themepark but that themepark is going to have to be extremely well made and have a LOT of content.

WoW has millions of players and they pay a sub. Why? Well, because WoW gives them enough value to warrant players paying a monthly fee.

 

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1630

1/05/13 3:36:05 PM#152
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Uhwop
People seem to refuse to accept a simple fact.  Gamers prefer more freedom, not less, and themeparks are the complete opposite of that.

Because your 'simple fact' isn't true, certainly not in all cases?

(Substitute "I" for "gamers" and you can make a "fact".)

 Yes it is true. 

I've been playing games sinse 1980.  I've been a part of the growth of the gaming industry ever sinse as a gamer. 

Games over the years have continued to open up and provide more and more freedom.  GTA3 isn't a smash hit because it was based on the first two GTA games.  It was the freedom and world building that did it. 

The most popular RPG series is a sandbox.  Skyrim, along with MW3 (again, even shooters have been expanding to offer more freedom by offering the ability to progress a charcter and costomize them), were tremendous successes that boosted video game sales hugely when they released. 

NWN wasn't a huge success because it was D&D, it was the level of freedom and mod kit that did it. 

Look at the evolution of racing games.  The most popular ones today don't just confine you to selecting a car and a track, you can ride around in fully realized cities, and have a load of freedom. 

Themeparks are the opposite of the direction the rest of the gaming industry has been going sinse about the days of the original Playstation. 

How good was dragon age again? 

Lets talk about Mass Effect. 

Darksiders.

Demonsouls.

Infamous

fall out

silent hill

resident evil

 

It's a fact, not my opinion based on what "I" prefer. 

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

1/05/13 3:37:12 PM#153
Originally posted by Uhwop

It's a fact, not my opinion based on what "I" prefer. 

A fact regarding the entire population "gamers" becomes untrue if a single exception exists.

That's the danger of hasty generalization.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  shirlnt

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/06
Posts: 354

1/05/13 3:40:23 PM#154

Sorry, I'll admit I haven't read through this thread but my answer to the OP's question:

I read a response to another thread where the person said that mmorpgs had been overdone and as a result where old (and dying?).  I think it is more a case of themeparks being overdone.  There are players (like myself) who have preferred at least some degree of sandbox in the MMOs they play all along, but I think there are also people who are tired of the types of games that currently exist and are ready to try something new.  Although, there is also the possibility that the themepark players are too busy playing the current games that they aren't visiting this website (I know if I was playing a game that got my attention the way SWG pre-cu did, I wouldn't be checking out forums nearly as much).

I personally like a combination of "sandbox" and "themepark" if it's done a certain way.  That way being that, while best done if a character has reached a certain stage of development, the "themeparks" in the game are not something that have to be done at a certain point and are not something that will be outleveled.  If a newbie can find a group of people to do a themepark with him/her, then he or she should be able to attempt the themepark although it may mean frequent knock outs or death.  If a fully developed or nearly fully developed character wishes to revisit previous content or explore a new area, he or she should be able to do that same themepark...AND the newbie and veteran should be able to group together for the same themepark without any penalties to either party.

  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1169

1/05/13 3:42:27 PM#155
I just want some good PvE content.
  StarI

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 787

1/05/13 3:48:02 PM#156

Most of MMORPG.com members sandbox players? 

LOL

Mostly wannabe sandboxers.

Yeah, I'd go with the second option. Lots of people get dead tired of cookie cutter themeparks after a few years, turning their backs in search for something refreshing. Sandbox surely sounds like a good next step when you're not even sure what it really is. But most of them can't handle a true sandbox game. Open world full loot  is for the hardcore minded.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

1/05/13 3:53:53 PM#157
Originally posted by StarI
Open world full loot  is for the hardcore minded.

Naw, that's weak. True hardcores castrate their own toons.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  User Deleted
1/05/13 4:00:12 PM#158
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by StarI
Open world full loot  is for the hardcore minded.

Naw, that's weak. True hardcores castrate their own toons.

That's a good thing. Then they'll never be able to breed.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17019

1/05/13 4:08:47 PM#159
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Uhwop

It's a fact, not my opinion based on what "I" prefer. 

A fact regarding the entire population "gamers" becomes untrue if a single exception exists.

That's the danger of hasty generalization.

Except that is what is done on these forums all the time.

It might not be a "single" exception but more often than not we see "my guild all thinks..." or "my friends all think..." and essentailly we are dealing with a group that has similiar tastes and ideas. And yet people feel comfortable applying their guild's tastes to "all gamers".

If anything, I see the few game players who I come across "not" wanting freedom per se but just wanting good games.

Of the disparate game players I come across who tried skyrim, only two actually completed the main quest or even stuck with the game. Several of them had problems with the freedom and one said to me that he became paralyzed when met with all those choices. He even went out to state that he wasn't interested in game worlds so much as "games".

Now, if they were all part of my circle of friends or part of the same guild, I wouldn't really be able to, in good conscience, say "all the gamers I know don't like freedom in games...". But as they aren't part of my circle of friends, as we don't really have much in common other than we played skyrim and like games, their opinions have more weight to me.

 

  xSh0x

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/07
Posts: 127

1/05/13 4:12:40 PM#160
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Considering there have been just about no successful themepark MMOs in the last 8 years, I'd say it's neither all of a sudden, nor is it just this MMORPG.com community.

 Exactly. 

It's staring us right in the face.

Plane as day.

When most of the AAA themeparks released can't sustain themselves under a subscription model, then the genre is speaking very clearly.  They'll play crap when it's free, but not when you've got to pay monthly for it. 

And still people insist no one really wants to play a sandbox.  Just because devlopers keep trying and failing, obviously it's the players and not the games themselves. 

Except that isn't true at all.

Themeparks that are not doing well and can't sustain a subscription aren't doing well just because they are themeparks or have a subscription.

 

That's not the bigger picture though.  We can fault any war's outcome in history for the error of man, but that doesn't mean war would achieve much more value without any error.  The idea of war is a weak concept.  Its a dead end theory.  Just like themeparks in MMOs, are a dead end.  The idea pool just doesn't fit well enough with the idea of a massive fantasy role playing game.

When the first AAA sandbox MMO releases globally, ArcheAge, people will get a taste for just how far sandbox inspired games could take the genre.  Well beyond the range of a themepark.  Developing features outside of simply combat, and character progression.  A sandbox can do that effectively.  Resource and asset economies, ecosystem progression, and freedom limited only by productivity.

People claim: it won't be popular with the "jump in for quick fun" types of gamers.  They would be correct, if the goal of sandboxes was simply character progression, like a themepark.  The sandbox inspired MMO will allow anyone to jump into any role they want, and progress the environment they play in at the same time.  There is no need to master all, which would take significant time and knowledge, a turn off for the "casuals," because the environment has no endgame or level cap.  It would be impossible, and miss the point of a massive online game.  The sandbox ecosystem makes your role productive in its own right, you can simply have fun at the start.  Ultimately, more roles and more methods of progression will make it more fun for people to come back and try something new.  Its the evolution of D&D.  The idea pool is completely untapped and underdeveloped.

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