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News & Features Discussion  » [General Article] City of Heroes: Profitable or Not?

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252 posts found
  UruzSix

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/10
Posts: 1

1/04/13 10:58:30 AM#41
Originally posted by Rthuth434
GW2 has already made up the cost of its production. 

So, to get this straight, you're saying that CoX never made back its initial production costs?  Count me curious here.

  TheQuinch

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/12
Posts: 22

1/04/13 10:59:10 AM#42
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Starsman
 

There was NEVER a server merger in CoH.

 http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Servers

The European servers were merged with the American servers because of LOW POPULATION ISSUES. They had to open the game up so all players around the world could chose to play with those in other areas. Even their own WIKI shows 9 of the 15 servers with LOW populations even AFTER the world merging of servers.

You do realize {wishful thinking, I know} that every time the idea of merging the servers was brought up in the forums, it was collectively shouted down by nearly everyone else, to the point that rather than go through it again, it was usually met with a boilerplate response of "no, and here are the reasons why". The server lists were merged for player convenience, and to streamline the game clients with the new NCsoft launcher application. And finally, the low-population servers were that way intentionally - a lot of players liked the "small town" feel of the smaller servers, while the rest congregated on Virtue, Freedom and Union.

  Starsman

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 14

1/04/13 10:59:49 AM#43
Originally posted by jtcgs

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Servers

The European servers were merged with the American servers because of LOW POPULATION ISSUES. They had to open the game up so all players around the world could chose to play with those in other areas. Even their own WIKI shows 9 of the 15 servers with LOW populations even AFTER the world merging of servers.

And YES, it is a MERGER...even THEY called it one.

Server LIST merger. Not Server Merger. Don't play dumb, you know "server merger due to low population" means to merge populations of two individual servers, and that was never done.

And "Low" was not empty, I played in one of the "emptiest" servers and it was very active. All servers went through a lot of upgrades over the years, with Freedom getting the biggest upgrade. Servers basically reported LOW at the stress level where they reported MEDIUM at launch.

 

  TheQuinch

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/12
Posts: 22

1/04/13 11:05:12 AM#44
Originally posted by Starsman

And "Low" was not empty, I played in one of the "emptiest" servers and it was very active. All servers went through a lot of upgrades over the years, with Freedom getting the biggest upgrade. Servers basically reported LOW at the stress level where they reported MEDIUM at launch.

Small correction, contention, whatever you'd care to call it - I doubt any individual server got an upgrade. Nowadays virtualization is the name of the game - a game server isn't a physical box anymore, but a virtual machine in a much larger server pool, with resources allocated to it on the fly, so the upgrade of the game servers increased the amount of resources each game shard had.

  Rthuth434

Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 367

1/04/13 11:07:52 AM#45
Originally posted by cmgangrel
Originally posted by Rthuth434
@ cmgangrel: it's just a sloppy web page. NCSoft master account is linked to GW2 once you sign in the support page.

I never had to log into my NCsoft account page to buy the game. In fact, you *can* play Guild Wars 2 without having an NCsoft account.

 

Does this mean that if you never have to use the support page (which I haven't), then it will never be linked up to an NCsoft master account?

if you go to their gw2 customer support page you have to log in with your ncsoft master account, or create one if you don't have it. furthermore, once you've linked a GW account to the GW2 account, if you change your GW2 log in info, your GW1 account changes to that info.

 

yea if you never use their CS you won't be bothered to make/link account for ncsoft...but if you do you will. 

  Grakulen

Staff Writer

Joined: 3/07/12
Posts: 417

1/04/13 11:12:17 AM#46
@jtcgs The source is not a Liar. Take 22 and multiply it by.95 and see how long it takes you to get to 12. It will take you 11 times to reach 12.51.If that retention number is Quarter over Quarter it matches up perfectly from 2009-2012 quarterly performance.
  Starsman

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 14

1/04/13 11:12:18 AM#47


Originally posted by TheQuinch Small correction, contention, whatever you'd care to call it - I doubt any individual server got an upgrade. Nowadays virtualization is the name of the game - a game server isn't a physical box anymore, but a virtual machine in a much larger server pool, with resources allocated to it on the fly, so the upgrade of the game servers increased the amount of resources each game shard had.
In a VM environment you still can assign maximum resources to each individual virtual machine. It was publicly noted long ago Freedom had higher limits than any other server due to it's popularity.

  TheQuinch

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/12
Posts: 22

1/04/13 11:12:58 AM#48
Ah. I stand corrected then.
  BurntToast6

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/12
Posts: 2

1/04/13 11:15:32 AM#49

CoH DID NOT have a 95% retention rate let's be VERY clear about that - that information is easily accessed. CoH was running at approx 25% of it's peak subscriber base at the end. 

Total operating cost of 4 million - you're kidding right? Competing against Google in Mountain View...and you think 50k a year is high for a developer??? Try LOW. 

There is absolutely NO ONE on RECORD stating they offered 80 million to purchase CoH - What kind of fool would? EVEN IF all the other numbers were correct and EVERY player remained VIP that would take 10 YEARS JUST to recoup costs. All you have for this 80 million offer is yet ANOTHER anonymous source. 

NCSoft valuation of CoH @ 3 million for tax purposes; funny since NCSoft has not even filed their tazes yet...how would this ANONYMOUS source know this?

The only thing this anonymous source got correct was this: NCSoft tried to work with Paragon, they really did.  But the profits were not what they needed to be, and CoH/Paragon were the weak link in NCsoft's lineup moving forward.

I love how the anonymous source didn't try to claim no one at Paragon saw this coming; like they claimed in the beginning ... since both Matt Miller and Melissa Bianco have admitted they knew approximately 2 months before the announcement. 

If this anonymous source stands behind their information (which is full of mistruths) why don't they actually say who they are...oh I know - because if you are anonymous you can't be held liable for slander and lies. Had their information been presented in even a half-truth manner it would bring them some credibility, but since most of the information can easily be debunked...it just solidifies that Anonymous is just another fan trying to spread misinformation and ill will because "Big Bad NCSoft" closed down their game.

 

  Rthuth434

Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 367

1/04/13 11:18:20 AM#50
Originally posted by BurntToast6

CoH DID NOT have a 95% retention rate let's be VERY clear about that - that information is easily accessed. CoH was running at approx 25% of it's peak subscriber base at the end. 

Total operating cost of 4 million - you're kidding right? Competing against Google in Mountain View...and you think 50k a year is high for a developer??? Try LOW. 

There is absolutely NO ONE on RECORD stating they offered 80 million to purchase CoH - What kind of fool would? EVEN IF all the other numbers were correct and EVERY player remained VIP that would take 10 YEARS JUST to recoup costs. All you have for this 80 million offer is yet ANOTHER anonymous source. 

NCSoft valuation of CoH @ 3 million for tax purposes; funny since NCSoft has not even filed their tazes yet...how would this ANONYMOUS source know this?

The only thing this anonymous source got correct was this: NCSoft tried to work with Paragon, they really did.  But the profits were not what they needed to be, and CoH/Paragon were the weak link in NCsoft's lineup moving forward.

I love how the anonymous source didn't try to claim no one at Paragon saw this coming; like they claimed in the beginning ... since both Matt Miller and Melissa Bianco have admitted they knew approximately 2 months before the announcement. 

If this anonymous source stands behind their information (which is full of mistruths) why don't they actually say who they are...oh I know - because if you are anonymous you can't be held liable for slander and lies. Had their information been presented in even a half-truth manner it would bring them some credibility, but since most of the information can easily be debunked...it just solidifies that Anonymous is just another fan trying to spread misinformation and ill will because "Big Bad NCSoft" closed down their game.

 

this.

  spitfire1064

Novice Member

Joined: 12/01/07
Posts: 61

1/04/13 11:22:33 AM#51
Originally posted by BurntToast6

CoH DID NOT have a 95% retention rate let's be VERY clear about that - that information is easily accessed. CoH was running at approx 25% of it's peak subscriber base at the end. 

Total operating cost of 4 million - you're kidding right? Competing against Google in Mountain View...and you think 50k a year is high for a developer??? Try LOW. 

There is absolutely NO ONE on RECORD stating they offered 80 million to purchase CoH - What kind of fool would? EVEN IF all the other numbers were correct and EVERY player remained VIP that would take 10 YEARS JUST to recoup costs. All you have for this 80 million offer is yet ANOTHER anonymous source. 

NCSoft valuation of CoH @ 3 million for tax purposes; funny since NCSoft has not even filed their tazes yet...how would this ANONYMOUS source know this?

The only thing this anonymous source got correct was this: NCSoft tried to work with Paragon, they really did.  But the profits were not what they needed to be, and CoH/Paragon were the weak link in NCsoft's lineup moving forward.

I love how the anonymous source didn't try to claim no one at Paragon saw this coming; like they claimed in the beginning ... since both Matt Miller and Melissa Bianco have admitted they knew approximately 2 months before the announcement. 

If this anonymous source stands behind their information (which is full of mistruths) why don't they actually say who they are...oh I know - because if you are anonymous you can't be held liable for slander and lies. Had their information been presented in even a half-truth manner it would bring them some credibility, but since most of the information can easily be debunked...it just solidifies that Anonymous is just another fan trying to spread misinformation and ill will because "Big Bad NCSoft" closed down their game.

 

Did you read the article? was this after they filed there tazes? No one offered that amount,it was stated that was what they were looking for.

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5178

1/04/13 11:23:36 AM#52
Also be aware profitable to a corporation doesn't just mean making more than it costs. It means providing sufficient return on investment to justify continued capital expenditures. They only have somuch capital to work with at any given time.  If they can put the money to better use elswhere they will.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  WildFire15

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/12
Posts: 12

1/04/13 11:23:37 AM#53
Originally posted by BurntToast6

I love how the anonymous source didn't try to claim no one at Paragon saw this coming; like they claimed in the beginning ... since both Matt Miller and Melissa Bianco have admitted they knew approximately 2 months before the announcement. 

If this anonymous source stands behind their information (which is full of mistruths) why don't they actually say who they are...oh I know - because if you are anonymous you can't be held liable for slander and lies. Had their information been presented in even a half-truth manner it would bring them some credibility, but since most of the information can easily be debunked...it just solidifies that Anonymous is just another fan trying to spread misinformation and ill will because "Big Bad NCSoft" closed down their game.

Note that the second paragraph of the article says 'The source requested to remain anonymous'. That means MMORPG.com know who the source is, so they are not some random individual from teh interwebz who claims to know something.

If I may Toast, could I recommend that before you post something, re-read it and check it before posting.

  spitfire1064

Novice Member

Joined: 12/01/07
Posts: 61

1/04/13 11:25:23 AM#54
Originally posted by WildFire15
Originally posted by BurntToast6

I love how the anonymous source didn't try to claim no one at Paragon saw this coming; like they claimed in the beginning ... since both Matt Miller and Melissa Bianco have admitted they knew approximately 2 months before the announcement. 

If this anonymous source stands behind their information (which is full of mistruths) why don't they actually say who they are...oh I know - because if you are anonymous you can't be held liable for slander and lies. Had their information been presented in even a half-truth manner it would bring them some credibility, but since most of the information can easily be debunked...it just solidifies that Anonymous is just another fan trying to spread misinformation and ill will because "Big Bad NCSoft" closed down their game.

Note that the second paragraph of the article says 'The source requested to remain anonymous'. That means MMORPG.com know who the source is, so they are not some random individual from teh interwebz who claims to know something.

If I may Toast, could I recommend that before you post something, re-read it and check it before posting.

This.

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2681

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

1/04/13 11:26:39 AM#55
Originally posted by Akais

I'm inclined to think of this as an issue or profit margin rather than profit as well.

NCSoft has a history of axing games that don't trend to their expectations when it comes to profit margin. 

What I don't entirely understand is why the game couldn't get sold.

It seems silly to me that NCSoft would turn down any potential profits able to be realized with the sale of a game with an installed and rather loyal fanbase. There are tons of companies that would pay handsomely for this. Likewise,  the IP is so niche that it's highly unlikely NCSoft will ever use it again constructively.

 

I can think of two very good reasons why they didn't want to sell the CoH ip

 

  1. Because of the various components that make up CoH/Paragon Studios (combat system, art resources, server structure, game engine, the studio itself (loc, equip), etc) are things NCSoft would rather keep for themselves than lose the rights to use them in future projects. (think of scrapping a car for parts rather than selling the whole car)
  2. It would sever all ties with Cryptic Studios and void any contractual obligations they may have had from the original sale of CoH to NCSoft which may have included but not limted to royalties, copyright agreements and/or patent partnerships.
Number 2 in particular would make sense because I always wondered why NCSoft never challenged Cryptic Studios when they made CO. Seeing as CO is a very close copy of the game structure of CoH and a copyright agreement or patent partnership would explained that. Maybe everything developed for CoH that Paragon Studios created , even after the sale, would have also been fair game for Cryptic Studios to use if they chose to use them.
 
Dunno really and all this is pure speculation on my part brought on by reading too many news articles of how wall street operates in a similar fashion.


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  adam_nox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/31/06
Posts: 2050

1/04/13 11:27:34 AM#56

Twenty good people could push out a powerset a month, a new arc a month, a few cash shop items including costumes a month.  I find it hard to believe that 80 number, maybe a bunch of interns? 

 

The whole situation is ridiculous.  Ask turbine about AC2, or EA about UO.  They could have made it work.  It made way more money and had way more interest then DAoC, WAR, AC2, UO, combined do right now.  The whole thing is a sad joke.

  Hoochler

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/04/07
Posts: 11

1/04/13 11:27:54 AM#57
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Starsman
 

There was NEVER a server merger in CoH.

 http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Servers

The European servers were merged with the American servers because of LOW POPULATION ISSUES. They had to open the game up so all players around the world could chose to play with those in other areas. Even their own WIKI shows 9 of the 15 servers with LOW populations even AFTER the world merging of servers.

And YES, it is a MERGER...even THEY called it one.

Right here on this very site as well as others there is an article that in Sept of 2008 City of Heroes had 125,000 subscribers, according to a press release by Paragon.

125,000 x 14.99 per month =  $1,873,750 x 12 months = 22,485,000

As SAID BY THE PERSON TELLING US THEY RETAINED 95%+ of its subscribers yet at the same time told us it made $12,000,000.

12 million is NOT 95-98% of 22.4 million.

This person is a flat out LIAR, I dont CARE if the game was GOOD or not or deserved to be shut down or NOT...he is a liar.

Was the time period of the ~95% retention ever stated? I can only assume that he meant that CoH had about a 95% retention rate month over month. Let’s do the math over in light of this incremental approach instead of your one bite method.

There were 48 months between SEP2008 and AUG2012. That means that the $22,485,000 you computed would have to have 95% taken out of if it 47 times.

If you keep 93.6% (not quite 95%) of $22,485,000 47 times you get $1,004,287.

$1,004,287 x 12 months = $12,051,442 over 12 months.

In my book, this part of the anonymous source’s numbers do add up.

Also, I don’t blame the source for staying anonymous. If this person went public they would probably get sued and also never work in the industry again, and all that risk for no pay off for them.

  TheQuinch

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/12
Posts: 22

1/04/13 11:31:48 AM#58
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Also be aware profitable to a corporation doesn't just mean making more than it costs. It means providing sufficient return on investment to justify continued capital expenditures. They only have somuch capital to work with at any given time.  If they can put the money to better use elswhere they will.

That only applies if a franchise is shut down so parts of it can be reused elsewhere.

 

The entirety of Paragon Studios was fired, not reassigned. No reuse there.

CoH was closed down completely, without even attempting to cut costs. The only way to salvage some kind of profit from its closure is to sell the game, which NCsoft is openly refusing to.

  spitfire1064

Novice Member

Joined: 12/01/07
Posts: 61

1/04/13 11:32:03 AM#59
Originally posted by adam_nox

Twenty good people could push out a powerset a month, a new arc a month, a few cash shop items including costumes a month.  I find it hard to believe that 80 number, maybe a bunch of interns? 

 

The whole situation is ridiculous.  Ask turbine about AC2, or EA about UO.  They could have made it work.  It made way more money and had way more interest then DAoC, WAR, AC2, UO, combined do right now.  The whole thing is a sad joke.

this

  spitfire1064

Novice Member

Joined: 12/01/07
Posts: 61

1/04/13 11:33:36 AM#60
Originally posted by adam_nox

Twenty good people could push out a powerset a month, a new arc a month, a few cash shop items including costumes a month.  I find it hard to believe that 80 number, maybe a bunch of interns? 

 

The whole situation is ridiculous.  Ask turbine about AC2, or EA about UO.  They could have made it work.  It made way more money and had way more interest then DAoC, WAR, AC2, UO, combined do right now.  The whole thing is a sad joke.

this

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