GrumpyMel - explains the situtation REALLY well (high-level) in thread:Theme Park Trap:

Originally posed by GrumpyMel2

The thing with the Themepark Trap....regardless of whether you like that sort of game as a player or not....is that the cost to create content starts to exceed the amount of revenue you gain back from that content, or at least it's a very poor return on that labor and the investment involved. In Themeparks players play the game primarly to consume content. Creating that content tends to be a very labor intensive and cost intensive process, at least if you want to include many of the items (high rez graphics, cutscenes and voice-acting) that are "expected" in many themeparks. This hasn't been so much of the issue in the past when the market only had a few competitors and the subscription model was prevealent. People would maintain a sub and find fun things to do in it, hanging around month after month and paying you the sub price month after month. The problem is today they don't actualy NEED to do that anymore. They pay to go through your game F2P or Hybrid/Sub and when they are done with all the content you've built for them in a couple months rather then stiking around (and paying you), they go off to any one of the 2 dozen other Themeparks out there that they haven't consumed yet. They might come back to you when you release new content and pay for a few weeks to go through that. But then they'll be gone again.

It's a bad value proposition for the investor and developer because there is just too much labor (and cash) involved in creating the content for too little return on it.

Imagine if your cell phone provider had to give you a new cell phone every month in order for you to pay them. They wouldn't be making a very good return on thier money. Instead they make ALOT more money if they just give you the phone once, and let you continue to pay them money month after month, year after year without them having to do anything new (and costly) for you. That's the basic service model, and it's one that maximizes return on investment IF they can get customers.

So what MMO's are TRYING to do is build the game structure and have the players amuse themselves (be thier own content) because it's a MUCH better return on investment for them. Sandbox games fit right into that wheelhouse as do FPS type games like Planetside2. The Developer doesn't have spend a ton of resources building content that the players will consume far too quickly (and for too little return) .

The other way out of Themepark Trap...or at least to make it a have a reasonable ROI is to find a way to deliver high quality content to the players for very little money. I'm not sure if that's possible today, might have been in the past with lesser expectations of standards in MMO....but if it is, then it's not that big of a deal if people burned through your content quickly because it didn't cost you much time/money to build.

Anyway I don't think will see alot of investment capital for big budget MMO's after TESO. It's just not enough return for the amount of risk involved...especialy in this climate. People aren't going to throw hundreds of millions of dollars to make an MMO anymore.

CCP provide three interesting take-homes in these articles:

EVE Online and the meaning of 'sandbox'

CCP Online's three design pillars for sandbox MMOs

-

Initially I enjoyed themepark, but looking for something more lasting and rewarding in terms of the story generation of interacting with many different players in these virtual worlds. Should be RP-quality on a massive scale.

I don't think that more people are turning to sandboxes, i just think that people want more freedom like they had in eq, doac, ac, swg and ff11 and not just scripted event after scripted event. I find it silly that people want to complain about grinding sometimes but thats a key thing you need to keep people playing mmos. They say i hate grinding mobs but spend all day running through the same dungoen over and over and over again.

Also i think the people interested in exploration and crafting are feeling hungry for that feeling again.

So its not that people are turning to sandboxes but in some cases that all they have now to get what they want since the old hybrids arent popular.

Originally posted by MumboJumbo

GrumpyMel - explains the situtation REALLY well (high-level) in thread:Theme Park Trap:

 

Originally posed by GrumpyMel2

The thing with the Themepark Trap....regardless of whether you like that sort of game as a player or not....is that the cost to create content starts to exceed the amount of revenue you gain back from that content, or at least it's a very poor return on that labor and the investment involved. In Themeparks players play the game primarly to consume content. Creating that content tends to be a very labor intensive and cost intensive process, at least if you want to include many of the items (high rez graphics, cutscenes and voice-acting) that are "expected" in many themeparks. This hasn't been so much of the issue in the past when the market only had a few competitors and the subscription model was prevealent. People would maintain a sub and find fun things to do in it, hanging around month after month and paying you the sub price month after month. The problem is today they don't actualy NEED to do that anymore. They pay to go through your game F2P or Hybrid/Sub and when they are done with all the content you've built for them in a couple months rather then stiking around (and paying you), they go off to any one of the 2 dozen other Themeparks out there that they haven't consumed yet. They might come back to you when you release new content and pay for a few weeks to go through that. But then they'll be gone again.

It's a bad value proposition for the investor and developer because there is just too much labor (and cash) involved in creating the content for too little return on it.

Imagine if your cell phone provider had to give you a new cell phone every month in order for you to pay them. They wouldn't be making a very good return on thier money. Instead they make ALOT more money if they just give you the phone once, and let you continue to pay them money month after month, year after year without them having to do anything new (and costly) for you. That's the basic service model, and it's one that maximizes return on investment IF they can get customers.

So what MMO's are TRYING to do is build the game structure and have the players amuse themselves (be thier own content) because it's a MUCH better return on investment for them. Sandbox games fit right into that wheelhouse as do FPS type games like Planetside2. The Developer doesn't have spend a ton of resources building content that the players will consume far too quickly (and for too little return) .

The other way out of Themepark Trap...or at least to make it a have a reasonable ROI is to find a way to deliver high quality content to the players for very little money. I'm not sure if that's possible today, might have been in the past with lesser expectations of standards in MMO....but if it is, then it's not that big of a deal if people burned through your content quickly because it didn't cost you much time/money to build.

Anyway I don't think will see alot of investment capital for big budget MMO's after TESO. It's just not enough return for the amount of risk involved...especialy in this climate. People aren't going to throw hundreds of millions of dollars to make an MMO anymore.

 

CCP provide three interesting take-homes in these articles:

EVE Online and the meaning of 'sandbox'

CCP Online's three design pillars for sandbox MMOs

-

Initially I enjoyed themepark, but looking for something more lasting and rewarding in terms of the story generation of interacting with many different players in these virtual worlds. Should be RP-quality on a massive scale.

While it is an interesting read and some of the arguments are valid it is also clear the tools most developers give their content creators are insuficient and clunky.

It will be interesting to see if Anet can keep creating content at a monthly schedule (the theory of many is that the content has been created before the game was released).

I would like to say that mmorpg.com has more sandboxers than other places, but I'm beginning to think it has more to do with wanting really very very specific things within small groups or individuals. I've seen some people saying that Age of Wushu isn't a sandbox now or isn't a very good one and it just makes me wonder what exactly it will take to please these people.

It's easy to come to the forums and go on and on with a laundry list of demands, but if you can't find any enjoyment in anything that comes out . . . maybe it's just you.

One of the most amusing things was how hyped so many people were for GW2 despite it being a super casual themepark. It makes me scratch my head at what people want.

I think there are a good number of sandbox players here.  But I think there is a lot of pent up demand for sandbox, and so the feeling has been building.  Old playes miss it and new players hear about it, feel what is lacking in themepark, and wonder how a good sandbox might be.

I will say this, MMORPG forum posters do not represent the majority of gamers, period. This is a very vocal minority that think they know what is best for the industry, inspite of the money that has been generated by said gaming compnies.

People live in the Real World, they don't want to have to play in one. Don't want perma-death, full loot PvP, etc. People on this forum do. It seems to me this is a very vocal minority.

Originally posted by botrytis

I will say this, MMORPG forum posters do not represent the majority of gamers, period. This is a very vocal minority that think they know what is best for the industry, inspite of the money that has been generated by said gaming compnies.

 

People live in the Real World, they don't want to have to play in one. Don't want perma-death, full loot PvP, etc. People on this forum do. It seems to me this is a very vocal minority.

I've been video gaming since the 70's.

I don't want perma-death, nor PvP of any kind, nor super-difficult content, etc.   You make a fair point, but please don't speak for all of us.

I believe that the sandbox market is growing which is supported by relatively high number of sandbox games coming out in next a few years.

Themeparks, on the other hand, lack innovation. Just look at themeparks released since WoW. I do not count games like PS 2 among MMORPGs. For me, it is simply shooter like Battlefield or CoD just in a massive scale. It is a good game though.

To me it seems logical that for part of the community, themeparks are becoming less popular. I used to like them a lot 5-6 years ago, but now I wouldnt play any of the current "standard themeparks" (swtor, tera, rift, GW2,..) even if they paid me.

On this forum, it may seem that everyone loves sandboxes and hates themeparks, but I think that the sandbox crowd is just a vocal minority. The themepark crowd is happily playing their games as they have plenty of games to choose from.

But yes, I think there is a shift in preferences for part of the MMORPG community. The fact that quite many sandbox games are going to be released clearly supports it since they would unlikely be spending millions of dollars on a game for which there would not be sufficient demand / market.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

"Sandbox" is the new "dyanamic event".  That word and it's horrible bastard cousin "sandbox-like feel" are the fotm.

Anyway I'm a gamer, an opportunist, and won't commit to one genre religion or another.  I'll play whatever I think is fun (and even some I don't).

not everyone is like you though. like the OP showed with the top games, this site is definately more sandbox friendly than themepark. when i play a mmo i dont play it because its a themepark or a sandpark i play it because i think its fun(shocking idea, i know) and when i dont like it i stop playing. to say the people on this site dont do anything but complain about themepark mmo's would be crazy. you could be talking about apples and somehow WoW or swtor would get brought up. look at this topic, already multiple times diffferent people have brought up the games they hate so much. id say at least 75% of the topics on these forums have some1 posting about WoW or another themepark mmo. i dont get it when i dont like something i dont support it at all, they wont get a youtube view from me, ill change the radio station if i dont like the music, ill change the channel on tv so there data doesnt benifit at all from me. and im happy knowing they did not get any support from me. but people on this site just complain and complain and complain and complain. i swear on my mothers life someone posted along the lines, " well its better to bash a game than over hype it" that right there is the attitude AT LEAST 75% of the people have on this site. and if anyone doesnt believe me go to general discussion and see how many times a game that has nothing to do with the topic will be brought up somehow

Originally posted by botrytis

I will say this, MMORPG forum posters do not represent the majority of gamers, period. This is a very vocal minority that think they know what is best for the industry, inspite of the money that has been generated by said gaming compnies.

 

People live in the Real World, they don't want to have to play in one. Don't want perma-death, full loot PvP, etc. People on this forum do. It seems to me this is a very vocal minority.

 I don't consider perma-death or full loot pvp to be sandbox features.  But that's the problem with the term though, not everyone agrees on what sandbox even is.

To me it's an open world, and  player directed activity as opposed to endless questing.  I also like skill based advancement, the ability to mix and match skills, non combat professions apart from crafting, deep crafting systems, housing, player created cities, etc. 

It's not for everyone. But then not everything is for everyone.  We've had several large budget themeparks that came after WOW, and we haven't had that big budget sandbox to really give the genre a chance.  Some people will say that is because of lack of demand, but I think it's lack of courage in a corporate culture that doesn't want to step outside the box. 

Originally posted by Terranah

I think there are a good number of sandbox players here.  But I think there is a lot of pent up demand for sandbox, and so the feeling has been building.  Old playes miss it and new players hear about it, feel what is lacking in themepark, and wonder how a good sandbox might be.

Thats a good point.

Maybe we would be a little less vocal and demanding of them if we had more good choices.

Personally, I have loved the sandbox style of game since i played Ultima 7. 

Originally posted by TribeofOne
being in to sandbox mmo's is the cool thing to want, but the sandbox crowd has yet to be satisfied with any current sandbox offerings, kind of like the pvp crowd.. I honestly dont think any 1 game can/will ever satisfy. its like an ideal to dream about...at least until some builds a real holodeck!

Well we have to have something to be satisfied with. We basically have Eve and thats it. It was great for a number of years but sadly its time has passed for me.

Originally posted by botrytis

I will say this, MMORPG forum posters do not represent the majority of gamers, period. This is a very vocal minority that think they know what is best for the industry, inspite of the money that has been generated by said gaming compnies.

 

People live in the Real World, they don't want to have to play in one. Don't want perma-death, full loot PvP, etc. People on this forum do. It seems to me this is a very vocal minority.

well said. idk about the perma death and full loot pvp etc stuff cuz i mean i dont want it but i could see why some people would. but what you said about them being a very small minoirty with the loudest mouths in 100% right. and by 100% i mean its a fact. theres no two sides of facts people 

After what happened when DF-UW went from like top two or three most hyped developing games to like 15th when players here went all jealous ex-girlfriend on it down rating it i dont put any faith in the hype meter on this site. Too damn easy for a group of bitter gamers to manipulate it. 

Secondly if Sandbox is getting attention its not because a few MMORPG users. It probably has more to do with popular franchises making mmos and not doing as well as hoped. Two that come to mind are Star Wars The Old Republic and STO. Both had huge fan bases(SW obviously much larger) and their games lastedas sub only game for how long before switching to the Free to Play style system.

Sandbox players are far from the majority. They just tend to be the loudest.

(DF-UW was hyped back up after the kids actually thought about it and decided a polished finish game is much better then a rushed piece of shit full of bugs)

i wouldnt consider those games all sandbox. but its good, finally, that we also get some more sandboxy games in the near future.

for me, a sandbox is an open seamless world with absolutley no instances. you can build wherever you want, but you have to count in people or mobs who want to destroy what you build.

you can be a merchant, a thief, a fighter, politician, murder, hero, constructor, crafter, tamer, gatherer, socialicer......

players can give quests, and there are only random npc quests to do

day and nigh cycle, and an alive world with npcs who do their things, own their house or appartment, sleep there....

and there must be evil npcs too, mobs and monsters, and evil players. of course some kind of world bosses or raid mobs, but those only gm played.

my idea would be playable mobs too. you gain exp while playing a rat and when you level up, you can be a wolf and some day perhaps a world boss?!

Originally posted by coretex666

I believe that the sandbox market is growing which is supported by relatively high number of sandbox games coming out in next a few years.

Themeparks, on the other hand, lack innovation. Just look at themeparks released since WoW. I do not count games like PS 2 among MMORPGs. For me, it is simply shooter like Battlefield or CoD just in a massive scale. It is a good game though.

To me it seems logical that for part of the community, themeparks are becoming less popular. I used to like them a lot 5-6 years ago, but now I wouldnt play any of the current "standard themeparks" (swtor, tera, rift, GW2,..) even if they paid me.

On this forum, it may seem that everyone loves sandboxes and hates themeparks, but I think that the sandbox crowd is just a vocal minority. The themepark crowd is happily playing their games as they have plenty of games to choose from.

But yes, I think there is a shift in preferences for part of the MMORPG community. The fact that quite many sandbox games are going to be released clearly supports it since they would unlikely be spending millions of dollars on a game for which there would not be sufficient demand / market.

I don't think so. We still don't know how these games will translate, example Archage from Korean to English as well as the publishers for the games. Right now, all these game are on 'ultra-hype' mode on this site. We shall see if they garner attention of all the gaming public or if they die a death of being ignored. If you base your expectations on members of this site, then Sandbox games will do well. If you assume a vocal minority, like this site is, then they won't do well.

We shall see, but after all the hype of the past couple of years on MMO's coming out, I am from Missouri, I will believe it when I see it and not before. Hoping for the best, prepared for the worst.