I agree in some degree. Tab target will likely stay as people seek a more casual platform, not to mention the fact that very few games have action combat completely realized, with Tera being I think the only 'fantasy' style game that does an amazing job with targetting and bringing an action style game on a larger MMO scale. Its going to take some more, it might take a bit of time before more games catch up to playing smoothly and I can see it taking off more.

Even if more games mastered action combat I just don't see it dieing off anytime soon. Its a different type of a game and in cases there are games that do have tab targetting that take quite a bit of skill compared to more 'action based' games (example (despite being not 100% action) is GW2 where combat is actually very simple and won't come close in difficulty compared to say Rift combat which is far more complex and difficult to do) it  just might end up breaching off in a different 'genre' of sorts.

If 'tab targeting' is code for hotbar combat, then it's gotten stale for me. I don't care how you target something, just standing there and activating abilities does not, for me, engaging combat make. 

Of the tab target/hotbar combat games i've played, I played WoW the most and the only time I actually enjoyed it was as a SV Hunter in burning crusade. This was because I got the rythm down of the 3/2 shot rotation, felt as if I were accomplishing something in getting most efficient shot usage while not clipping autoshots AND I DIDN'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT OR PAY ATTENTION TO COOLDOWNS. For the rest of my time playing wow i've had to eyeball  energy bars and cooldowns instead of big ugly raid bosses, and it was nowhere near as fun.

This being said, I don't need to play all the games. Tab targeting/hotbar combat is a proven system and is going nowhere soon. I'm happy with waiting for trials to see if it's something I can deal with in new releases, and am ok with passing on a game if it's the same ol' boring shit.

Originally posted by sketocafe

If 'tab targeting' is code for hotbar combat, then it's gotten stale for me. I don't care how you target something, just standing there and activating abilities does not, for me, engaging combat make. 

Of the tab target/hotbar combat games i've played, I played WoW the most and the only time I actually enjoyed it was as a SV Hunter in burning crusade. This was because I got the rythm down of the 3/2 shot rotation, felt as if I were accomplishing something in getting most efficient shot usage while not clipping autoshots AND I DIDN'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT OR PAY ATTENTION TO COOLDOWNS. For the rest of my time playing wow i've had to eyeball  energy bars and cooldowns instead of big ugly raid bosses, and it was nowhere near as fun.

This being said, I don't need to play all the games. Tab targeting/hotbar combat is a proven system and is going nowhere soon. I'm happy with waiting for trials to see if it's something I can deal with in new releases, and am ok with passing on a game if it's the same ol' boring shit.

I think it's been around the block a good many times and you give players a taste of more actiony-combat and it is harder to go back to tab-target and actionbar static stuff... seems a lot of the tab-target tropes are too familiar also eg cool-down, trinity etc...

Originally posted by MumboJumbo
I'd like to see tab-target if used be more about making interesting decisions than calculating optimum skill rotation to use and not much else. I think it's neither dynamic nor strategic in a lot of cases, when it aims to be a mixture of both (real-time + "skill tree/selection choices").

Where have you been? Good combat system already does that.

If you play an arcane mage in WOW back in CATA, you have to decide when to pop CD and do you "burn phase", and there is no rotation. Good players adapt their burn phase (and mana conserving phase) according to the boss, and encounter mechanics.

While rotation is certainly relevant for many classes, there are many other strategic considerations.

I also want to point out that this kind of interesting decisions are not limited to tab-targeting. You can have that in action combat too. I play a archon wizard in D3 .. and i often (aside from dodging stuff, and aiming my beam) have to decide if i want to just stand and burn the elite, or pull them to another group so i can add some seconds to my archon form, and when do i go into archon .. or even how to position, thinking ahead of the next group of mobs.

Strategizing can be enabled in any form of combat.

Originally posted by MumboJumbo

Originally posted by sketocafe

If 'tab targeting' is code for hotbar combat, then it's gotten stale for me. I don't care how you target something, just standing there and activating abilities does not, for me, engaging combat make. 

Of the tab target/hotbar combat games i've played, I played WoW the most and the only time I actually enjoyed it was as a SV Hunter in burning crusade. This was because I got the rythm down of the 3/2 shot rotation, felt as if I were accomplishing something in getting most efficient shot usage while not clipping autoshots AND I DIDN'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT OR PAY ATTENTION TO COOLDOWNS. For the rest of my time playing wow i've had to eyeball  energy bars and cooldowns instead of big ugly raid bosses, and it was nowhere near as fun.

This being said, I don't need to play all the games. Tab targeting/hotbar combat is a proven system and is going nowhere soon. I'm happy with waiting for trials to see if it's something I can deal with in new releases, and am ok with passing on a game if it's the same ol' boring shit.

I think it's been around the block a good many times and you give players a taste of more actiony-combat and it is harder to go back to tab-target and actionbar static stuff... seems a lot of the tab-target tropes are too familiar also eg cool-down, trinity etc...

I've tasted action combat and i will never go back to it.  Just because you like the action combat doesnt make it better.

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Originally posted by Eyrothath
MMO's with real time combat... Hmm..

 
Guild Wars 2 (Action Combat)
 

Not sure if I missed any or not.. I think I already forgot what this thread was about.. Something about how tab-targetting is more popular in the MMO-genre..

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Tab target style combat is "here to stay" because it is much easier to program than real time action combat when dealing with MMOs.

Its also easier on the players. Have a 1000ms ping? Doesnt matter. Boss hitting you in the face? Thats supposed to happen. Need to go AFK? Theres always auto-attack.

I dont have anything against Tab target style combat but nor would I mourn it if it disappeared tomorrow.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Yeah I would say likes of gw2, aoc & tsw and probably TESO to have hybrid combat, not tab target, not action, somewhere in between.

Action combat us darkfall & planetside

Besides Darkfall being meh, Guild Wars 2 combat is probably the most perfect comination I've seen so far.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by MumboJumbo
I'd like to see tab-target if used be more about making interesting decisions than calculating optimum skill rotation to use and not much else. I think it's neither dynamic nor strategic in a lot of cases, when it aims to be a mixture of both (real-time + "skill tree/selection choices").

Where have you been? Good combat system already does that.

If you play an arcane mage in WOW back in CATA, you have to decide when to pop CD and do you "burn phase", and there is no rotation. Good players adapt their burn phase (and mana conserving phase) according to the boss, and encounter mechanics.

While rotation is certainly relevant for many classes, there are many other strategic considerations.

I also want to point out that this kind of interesting decisions are not limited to tab-targeting. You can have that in action combat too. I play a archon wizard in D3 .. and i often (aside from dodging stuff, and aiming my beam) have to decide if i want to just stand and burn the elite, or pull them to another group so i can add some seconds to my archon form, and when do i go into archon .. or even how to position, thinking ahead of the next group of mobs.

Strategizing can be enabled in any form of combat.

Tbh, I'm trying to find the flaws and see if there's any ideas that jump out that are interesting directions for combat in mmorpgs to attempt :) . You're right, I've had some good combat in mmorpgs (have not tried nearly enough). I just want to see systems that really impress the hell out of me...

Btw are you an Asimov fan?

Originally posted by vandal5627

I've tasted action combat and i will never go back to it.  Just because you like the action combat doesnt make it better.

It's more the fluid movement that I like in action mmorpg. I feel tab-target the avatars run stuck to the ground to much or move in combat uncoordinated or the info in tab-target even though your avatar and world are really graphically rich, the actual combat info is detached... *see above* response: Just picking holes mostly to see where improvements can be. Eg Firefall movement looks really nice jumping around the environment or Age Of Wushu.

Originally posted by MumboJumbo

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by MumboJumbo
I'd like to see tab-target if used be more about making interesting decisions than calculating optimum skill rotation to use and not much else. I think it's neither dynamic nor strategic in a lot of cases, when it aims to be a mixture of both (real-time + "skill tree/selection choices").

Where have you been? Good combat system already does that.

If you play an arcane mage in WOW back in CATA, you have to decide when to pop CD and do you "burn phase", and there is no rotation. Good players adapt their burn phase (and mana conserving phase) according to the boss, and encounter mechanics.

While rotation is certainly relevant for many classes, there are many other strategic considerations.

I also want to point out that this kind of interesting decisions are not limited to tab-targeting. You can have that in action combat too. I play a archon wizard in D3 .. and i often (aside from dodging stuff, and aiming my beam) have to decide if i want to just stand and burn the elite, or pull them to another group so i can add some seconds to my archon form, and when do i go into archon .. or even how to position, thinking ahead of the next group of mobs.

Strategizing can be enabled in any form of combat.

Tbh, I'm trying to find the flaws and see if there's any ideas that jump out that are interesting directions for combat in mmorpgs to attempt :) . You're right, I've had some good combat in mmorpgs (have not tried nearly enough). I just want to see systems that really impress the hell out of me...

Btw are you an Asimov fan?

 

Originally posted by vandal5627

I've tasted action combat and i will never go back to it.  Just because you like the action combat doesnt make it better.

It's more the fluid movement that I like in action mmorpg. I feel tab-target the avatars run stuck to the ground to much or move in combat uncoordinated or the info in tab-target even though your avatar and world are really graphically rich, the actual combat info is detached... *see above* response: Just picking holes mostly to see where improvements can be. Eg Firefall movement looks really nice jumping around the environment or Age Of Wushu.

I'm sorry but when I think of the action combat with games like TERA or RaiderZ "fluid" is not a word that comes up for me. All you do in those games is either run around like a chicken with it's head cut off or constantly jump (with the exception of the lancers blocking).

Age of Wushu does do a pretty good job with movement.

Originally posted by Razeekster

No offence, but people really really need to get over the fact that not every MMO has action combat! Action combat is not a common feature in MMOs like players are trying to make it seem! There are only a couple games that even have it in the West! Tab targetting is mainly what you will find in most MMOs. Players see a couple games with a feature and start acting like it's ridiculous that this feature isn't in every MMO.

 ,,,,,

I also don't think that players realize that a game engine has to be specifically built around action combat if they want to include it. It's not exactly an "easy" feature to add, and that money could be spent more wisely. Like creating new features that other MMOs don't have. That is why it makes me happy that there hasn't been a large uprising of action combat MMOs and it looks like 2013 will once again be the year of tab targeting. Something that personally makes me happy (I have nothing against action combat but I do not want every MMO to have it).

Agree fully with you. Tried few times, but if mmo does not have tab targeting I will not even bother to try it immagine buy it. But have nothing against games without if will find enough player base to play. Just I will not be there, simple as that.

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Razeekster

No offence, but people really really need to get over the fact that not every MMO has action combat! Action combat is not a common feature in MMOs like players are trying to make it seem! There are only a couple games that even have it in the West! Tab targetting is mainly what you will find in most MMOs. Players see a couple games with a feature and start acting like it's ridiculous that this feature isn't in every MMO.

 

I'm not sure if it's because like many say, players act like they are entitled, or if they truly think that tab targeting is an outdated feature. I've talked to other players who say they actually prefer tab targeting. Action combat like TERA has caters to certain people and I don't think these people realize that not every player actually wants action combat in every MMO. I say this because every new game I see coming out without action combat I see players complaining about the lack of this feature.

 

I also don't think that players realize that a game engine has to be specifically built around action combat if they want to include it. It's not exactly an "easy" feature to add, and that money could be spent more wisely. Like creating new features that other MMOs don't have. That is why it makes me happy that there hasn't been a large uprising of action combat MMOs and it looks like 2013 will once again be the year of tab targeting. Something that personally makes me happy (I have nothing against action combat but I do not want every MMO to have it).

Disagreed

 

Tab target, Static, boring, slow, trade-blows, turn based MMO combat is dieing the slow death it deserves.  Highly anticipated games like ArchAge would do wise to scrap their WoW style combat and reinvent themselves to at least follow GW2's hybrid action style combat.

Clearly you haven't played GW2 and/or WoW recently.   Or maybe you don't know what you are talking about.  OR maybe you assume a dodge ability classifys a game as a 'hybrid'. 

I am currently playing Vindictus (another action oriented MMO) and love it even though it is a F2P game. Given an equal game quality I would always prefer the FPS-style games. Tab targeting is not immersive and I feel so limited in those games. No freedom of movement, no intuitive gameplay, no "skill" as people would put it.

Playing with WASD + mouse to move around feels so natural it's hard to imagine why someone else would not like it. Yes, I know there are a lot of you tab-targeters out there, but I still think it is weird.

Currently there is a lack of high quality FPS-style MMOs and I am really looking forward to see more of these games being released. I also believe tab-targeting games will stay alive so there is really no need to argue.

Wizardry Online did good job with mixing Tab Targeting(TT) and Action Combat(AC). In general there cleave damage on weapons, in AC mode you run freely around, can gather mobs together for more effective aoe. With TT mode enabled, you focus on one enemy, you still do cleave damage, but you movements adjusted to that enemy you targeting, which makes it easier to dodge or block

Originally posted by TheHavok

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Razeekster

No offence, but people really really need to get over the fact that not every MMO has action combat! Action combat is not a common feature in MMOs like players are trying to make it seem! There are only a couple games that even have it in the West! Tab targetting is mainly what you will find in most MMOs. Players see a couple games with a feature and start acting like it's ridiculous that this feature isn't in every MMO.

 

I'm not sure if it's because like many say, players act like they are entitled, or if they truly think that tab targeting is an outdated feature. I've talked to other players who say they actually prefer tab targeting. Action combat like TERA has caters to certain people and I don't think these people realize that not every player actually wants action combat in every MMO. I say this because every new game I see coming out without action combat I see players complaining about the lack of this feature.

 

I also don't think that players realize that a game engine has to be specifically built around action combat if they want to include it. It's not exactly an "easy" feature to add, and that money could be spent more wisely. Like creating new features that other MMOs don't have. That is why it makes me happy that there hasn't been a large uprising of action combat MMOs and it looks like 2013 will once again be the year of tab targeting. Something that personally makes me happy (I have nothing against action combat but I do not want every MMO to have it).

Disagreed

 

Tab target, Static, boring, slow, trade-blows, turn based MMO combat is dieing the slow death it deserves.  Highly anticipated games like ArchAge would do wise to scrap their WoW style combat and reinvent themselves to at least follow GW2's hybrid action style combat.

Clearly you haven't played GW2 and/or WoW recently.   Or maybe you don't know what you are talking about.  OR maybe you assume a dodge ability classifys a game as a 'hybrid'. 

Do you care to enlighten us?  Feel free to ask Jesus for help.  I think you might need it.

I consider the combat in both GW2 and TSW a blend of action and tab or soft targeting.  They have both active and passive dodging.  The ranged attacks, both "physical" and "magic" can be evaded both by rng and motion.  You target a foe and won't miss them with a ranged attack, outside of rng, from not reticule targetting them, but they can actively dodge or move out of the way.  A ranged launch doesn't guarantee you will always hit if the target moves.  In my own categorization I refer to these as "soft targetting".

The other two categories I have are "hard targetting" and "reticule targetting".  Hard targetting systems are like LotRO, EQ2, and rift. There is no active or passive dodging, no active blocking, and launched attacks rely solely on rng d20 systems to determine combat results.  Reticule systems are like RaiderZ and Tera.  They sport reticule targetting where the target must be within the sights to be hit with an attack of any type.  They can have targetting, but it isn't related to hitting a target.  There is some sort of active defense / mitigation system (dodge, evade, blocking)  I consider games like TSW and GW2 hybrids, or blends, of those two systems with some features of each.  There is rng, but it doesn't entirely determine combat results.

Hard tab targetting isn't going anywhere just like turn based combat isn't going anywhere just like other styles aren't going anywhere.  However, I don't think hard targetting is going to be the standard mmo combat like it has been.

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Originally posted by Torvaldr

I consider the combat in both GW2 and TSW a blend of action and tab or soft targeting.  They have both active and passive dodging.  The ranged attacks, both "physical" and "magic" can be evaded both by rng and motion.  You target a foe and won't miss them with a ranged attack, outside of rng, from not reticule targetting them, but they can actively dodge or move out of the way.  A ranged launch doesn't guarantee you will always hit if the target moves.  In my own categorization I refer to these as "soft targetting".

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If you want to avoid a projectile in GW2 you can Dodge at the right time or be hit by it. You cant "move out of the way" as you say to avoid projectiles in GW2.

Ive tried avoiding projectiles in GW2 by moving out of the way but it doesnt work. Ive been 20 yards away from the point of impact and still been hit by projectiles.

This is easy to see with giant worms because they throw slow moving rocks.

GW2s combat is still very much rooted in Tab target style, ArenaNet may try and hide it with a Dodge mechanic but its there.

I was about to say. I played GW2 abit and it was still tab target focused.

TSW has added the reticle combat however even that is just a expanison of tab targeting. Its a good expansion and i enjoy it, However im not gonna say its a revolutionary form of Acton Combat Simply because it isn't.

Action combat is Raiderz, where if you click your attack button with no one around, you still swing but hit nothing. I have no problem with either style honestly. I felt the dodge mechanic was done in TSW better by showing what attacks can be dodged and how long you have to dodge them. This only accounts for Tab targeting games of course. So final statement.

GW2 IS a tab target game a dodge mechianic doesnt change that.

Tab targeting is not going anywhere, if anything you will be given the option of Reticle Targeting and Click Targeting in the future. and that is only if TSW's Reticle combat catches on.