Originally posted by Angier2758

Originally posted by shinkan

It's no secret that someone has to pay for the "F2P", its not the rec cross or salvation army we're talking about. but this is what many people wanted and now they got it. The cost of these game to fully enjoy them now is just much more distorted and the real cost can easily be more "hidden".

Its really like with all those low cost / cheap airlines, they have lots of hidden away costs, that make it much harder to calculate the real cost of the product you want/need (seat reservation, extra luggage, etc).

Blame the I want everything for free generation

What generation is this?

Those with an entitlement complex, no matter what their age may be.

I did play some of those p2w f2p games.  And most of people don't pay anything.  Some pay 20-30$ a month.  A few people pay hundreds of doallar a month.  There's a person who paid so much money it is enough to buy a BMW.

That is how things work.  The few people that is paying make the game free to play for the free loaders.

Even GW2 kind of work the same way.  The exception is instead of grinding or paying for power, you are paying for cosmetic.  There are people who paid a few hundreds dollar for fluff item like miniature pet, cool looking skin, etc.  If you want a legendary weapon(which is just a cool looking skin), you need to grind forever, or pay something like 3000$ US.  The few people willing to pay those money are the one making the game free for us. 

Originally posted by laokoko

IThe few people willing to pay those money are the one making the game free for us. 

Free? I don't think any of that is free if you want to enjoy the game. You either make playing a certain MMO a full time job or cough out money. That's why I always prefer p2p MMOs and wonder how people who can afford internet connection cannot afford spending a few usd for games that they want to play.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Angier2758

Originally posted by shinkan

It's no secret that someone has to pay for the "F2P", its not the rec cross or salvation army we're talking about. but this is what many people wanted and now they got it. The cost of these game to fully enjoy them now is just much more distorted and the real cost can easily be more "hidden".

Its really like with all those low cost / cheap airlines, they have lots of hidden away costs, that make it much harder to calculate the real cost of the product you want/need (seat reservation, extra luggage, etc).

Blame the I want everything for free generation

What generation is this?

Those with an entitlement complex, no matter what their age may be.

That's every generation except the folks who lived through the great depression.

World of Tanks and War Thunder (in beta, but I believe prices are final) are doing it right:

WoT: 1 month premium - 10 euros

War Thunder: 1 month premium - 10 euros, 3 months - 20 euros etc

Originally posted by Angier2758

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Angier2758

Originally posted by shinkan

It's no secret that someone has to pay for the "F2P", its not the rec cross or salvation army we're talking about. but this is what many people wanted and now they got it. The cost of these game to fully enjoy them now is just much more distorted and the real cost can easily be more "hidden".

Its really like with all those low cost / cheap airlines, they have lots of hidden away costs, that make it much harder to calculate the real cost of the product you want/need (seat reservation, extra luggage, etc).

Blame the I want everything for free generation

What generation is this?

Those with an entitlement complex, no matter what their age may be.

That's every generation except the folks who lived through the great depression.

Good parts of each, but hardly everyone in each generation.  But it does seem that each generation has a higher percentage.

Originally posted by Piiritus

Originally posted by laokoko

IThe few people willing to pay those money are the one making the game free for us. 

Free? I don't think any of that is free if you want to enjoy the game. You either make playing a certain MMO a full time job or cough out money. That's why I always prefer p2p MMOs and wonder how people who can afford internet connection cannot afford spending a few usd for games that they want to play.

Not everyone need the most powerful equipment, the best looking skin, every single pet, everything unlock to enjoy the game.  They just enjoy whatever the free part is.  That is especially true for casual player.  For hardcore player, they grind so much, that most of the time they can play for free anyway.

And follow up on the new generation.  Why do you need everything to enjoy yourself. 

Originally posted by Piiritus

Originally posted by laokoko

IThe few people willing to pay those money are the one making the game free for us. 

Free? I don't think any of that is free if you want to enjoy the game. You either make playing a certain MMO a full time job or cough out money. That's why I always prefer p2p MMOs and wonder how people who can afford internet connection cannot afford spending a few usd for games that they want to play.

Enjoyment is in the eye of the beholder. And of course people are having fun playing F2P games .. otherwise why would they be doing it?

You can't have fun != others cannot.

In fact, i had lots of fun playing F2P MMOs. Oh, it is not that i cannot afford a sub .. but why would i when i can have fun for free .. that is the beauty of competition.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by zymurgeist
At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?"

A corporate board room with a conscience? I think not.

Their goal is to bleed customers (us) out of every stinkin' cent they can get away with. Consider what might happen to board room members that question the greed machine with terms like "outrageous" and you'll have your answer.

 Conscience? No, it's a cold calculation. Reputation has market value. That's the thing corporation haters forget, they're ultimately rational or they fall.

In theory.  Matters get quite a bit different in a crony capitalist system, such as exists in the US and many other countries.

Also "rational" has different meanings, in different contexts.

Reputation *does* have great value, but that can be over ridden by government favors. Look at Comcast, which is consistently rated one of the most hated companies in the US. But that doesn't keep it from being very profitable, thanks to its monopoly status in way too many markets.

 That doesn't really apply to gaming companies. Also even Comcast is beginning to feel the push back in many localities. When you do stupid things technology provides answers to underserved media markets. It just takes time. Politicians will likewise turn on their "friends" in a heartbeat if it suits their momentary purpose.

Also, it is about competition. Comcast has zero competition in many markets, which is, of course totally opposite in the gaming industry. Competition is in abundance.

That is why iphone games are $4.99 or less. That is why many MMOs are F2P.

If you really want to see what true gouging looks like, take a gander at the genre of MMORTS.

I assure you, you'll never see people spend more money on a game than that. I remember playing one years ago. Clash of the Kingdoms, and there were people dropping thousands of dollars at a time for CHANCES at premium generals, premium mounts, weapons, etc, and then spending even MORE money on things like exp bonuses, build rate bonuses, build space, etc.

Seriously, if you want to see how much WORSE it can be, take a leap over to www.koramgame.com and try it out (it's "free" to play, in the sense that if you want ANYTHING good, you'll be spending money, period)

Originally posted by Cymdai

If you really want to see what true gouging looks like, take a gander at the genre of MMORTS.

 

I assure you, you'll never see people spend more money on a game than that. I remember playing one years ago. Clash of the Kingdoms, and there were people dropping thousands of dollars at a time for CHANCES at premium generals, premium mounts, weapons, etc, and then spending even MORE money on things like exp bonuses, build rate bonuses, build space, etc.

 

Seriously, if you want to see how much WORSE it can be, take a leap over to www.koramgame.com and try it out (it's "free" to play, in the sense that if you want ANYTHING good, you'll be spending money, period)

What you call gouging, i call free market. Surely i won't play the game you just linked .. but once again, if they are successful in luring people spending thousand of dollars, more power to them.

For me, i have other games to play.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

What you call gouging, i call free market. Surely i won't play the game you just linked .. but once again, if they are successful in luring people spending thousand of dollars, more power to them.

For me, i have other games to play.

Until all the other games start doing the same thing.  We are witnessing the homogenization of the MMO market.  Things are still up in the air because companies are still testing what players are willing to spend and how to manipulate their games to increase spending.  F2P gives companies options on how to charge which makes for a better system to manipulate.  I'm not saying it's right or wrong but games will start costing the same everywhere and their will be tiered pricing (already happening in f2p).

It happens in every market.  Think of what you spend on cable, internet, cell phones; pretty much everything that is widely consumable.

Well it's the same phenomenon that happens with most products in our wear and tear society today. Quality is difficult to sell, most people are very uninformed about the product and only look at the price tag. Free to play looks better on the price tag than pay to play or buy to play so the masses go for free to play and get milked for money further down the road.

I believe the way to stop this trend is by educating gamers about the consequences of free to play on how games are designed, where a clear goal of the developer is to increase cash shop profits.

Originally posted by Foncl

Well it's the same phenomenon that happens with most products in our wear and tear society today. Quality is difficult to sell, most people are very uninformed about the product and only look at the price tag. Free to play looks better on the price tag than pay to play or buy to play so the masses go for free to play and get milked for money further down the road.

I believe the way to stop this trend is by educating gamers about the consequences of free to play on how games are designed, where a clear goal of the developer is to increase cash shop profits.

Yeah, that's not going to happen.  Educate gamers?  Forget that.  Just educate people in general.  If education was done right, our political and financial outlook would be far better.  If we can't get the critical stuff right, there's no hope on the smaller stuff like gaming.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cymdai

If you really want to see what true gouging looks like, take a gander at the genre of MMORTS.

 

I assure you, you'll never see people spend more money on a game than that. I remember playing one years ago. Clash of the Kingdoms, and there were people dropping thousands of dollars at a time for CHANCES at premium generals, premium mounts, weapons, etc, and then spending even MORE money on things like exp bonuses, build rate bonuses, build space, etc.

 

Seriously, if you want to see how much WORSE it can be, take a leap over to www.koramgame.com and try it out (it's "free" to play, in the sense that if you want ANYTHING good, you'll be spending money, period)

What you call gouging, i call free market. Surely i won't play the game you just linked .. but once again, if they are successful in luring people spending thousand of dollars, more power to them.

For me, i have other games to play.

I agree with the free market part Nar,but at what point does it stop?The thing is when we were dealing with $10-$15 a month sub only games people couldn't drop hundreds or thousands of dollars to try and get an advantage.When this happens it is gouging to me,because most players simply can't afford that kind of money.

Sure you can say we had gold buyers for yrs,the thing is they were only able to access what the average Joe could gain through normal gameplay.When you can only get certain boost's and add ons using cash we have a big problem.Fluff like mount's and non combat pets are just that, fluff.

Sorry for tangent,it's New Years Eve and well..you know.Happy New Years!

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cymdai

If you really want to see what true gouging looks like, take a gander at the genre of MMORTS.

I assure you, you'll never see people spend more money on a game than that. I remember playing one years ago. Clash of the Kingdoms, and there were people dropping thousands of dollars at a time for CHANCES at premium generals, premium mounts, weapons, etc, and then spending even MORE money on things like exp bonuses, build rate bonuses, build space, etc.

Seriously, if you want to see how much WORSE it can be, take a leap over to www.koramgame.com and try it out (it's "free" to play, in the sense that if you want ANYTHING good, you'll be spending money, period)

What you call gouging, i call free market. Surely i won't play the game you just linked .. but once again, if they are successful in luring people spending thousand of dollars, more power to them.

For me, i have other games to play.

Anyone that understands the basics of economics calls it free market, too.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

Originally posted by zymurgeist
I think all the " you don't need to pay that much" posts miss the point. Of course you don't need to pay anything at all. What staggers my imagination is how is even possible to pay that much? At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?" It's like the joke about selling pencils (or whatever)  for a million dollars each because you only need to sell one.

yeah, and it's biting them in the ass now: notice how few new F2P localizations have come out this year VS last?

there is still just as many upcoming MMO's in Korea that could be localized, but western F2P localizers have poached off too many "Whales" and the return just aren't what they used to be.

Which would suggest that the actual paying customer base for F2P games is finite in the West and may well have peaked (and now be looking only at shrinking at the bubble bursts under the weight of education, buyer remorse, and other elements).

I wonder seriously if 2012/ 2013 will be remembered as the dark days of cash shop that we all look back at and think, ' how the fuck did anyone actually fall for that shit?'.

To me it says there is better competition and they don't need to go through hte hassle and expense of localization.

I think the next few years are when people will remember back when we all used to pay tons for subscriptions and think how the hell did we duped into throwing away that much money away.

 

The thing is when we were all paying the same £2.50 or whatever a week for our subs it didn't really matter if a small percentage of the player base left because the money was spread out.

But F2P? F2P relies on the whales spending a ton of cash to carry to game for all the freeloaders, and that means all it takes is a small percentage (the spenders) to see the light for the revenue model to fall flat on it's face. It's a house built on straw really. The cash shop F2P market is already showing signs of peaking in the West I think.

As for better competition making it not worth the cost of localisation... I am not sure that theory is very realistic.

Its more likely the difference in cultures (Asian/Western), that is limiting the uptake in the western F2P business model.  Its certainly made some inroads, but only at the expense of alienating quite some number of players.  Having dealt with both extensively over the years, all I really care about is if the game is entertaining. 

But for many in the west, its almost like F2P is against their religion... ^^

As is paying a sub for some... but ingrained points of views aside....

I am actually proud that the Western consumer is looking at the cash shop revenue model and asking questions enough to stall it's uptake.

It shows we are still thinking about things and how they effect us, our wallets, and the games we play.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cymdai

If you really want to see what true gouging looks like, take a gander at the genre of MMORTS.

I assure you, you'll never see people spend more money on a game than that. I remember playing one years ago. Clash of the Kingdoms, and there were people dropping thousands of dollars at a time for CHANCES at premium generals, premium mounts, weapons, etc, and then spending even MORE money on things like exp bonuses, build rate bonuses, build space, etc.

Seriously, if you want to see how much WORSE it can be, take a leap over to www.koramgame.com and try it out (it's "free" to play, in the sense that if you want ANYTHING good, you'll be spending money, period)

What you call gouging, i call free market. Surely i won't play the game you just linked .. but once again, if they are successful in luring people spending thousand of dollars, more power to them.

For me, i have other games to play.

Anyone that understands the basics of economics calls it free market, too.

Where is this 'free market' you speak of practised?

Originally posted by Vesavius

As is paying a sub for some... but ingrained points of views aside....

I am actually proud that the Western consumer is looking at the cash shop revenue model and asking questions enough to stall it's uptake.

It shows we are still thinking about things and how they effect us, our wallets, and the games we play.

Critical thinking and education one's self about a system = good.

Unfortunately, there's a lot more blind adherence to talking points (most of which have been proven false many times over) than there is genuine skepticism and question asking.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cymdai

If you really want to see what true gouging looks like, take a gander at the genre of MMORTS.

I assure you, you'll never see people spend more money on a game than that. I remember playing one years ago. Clash of the Kingdoms, and there were people dropping thousands of dollars at a time for CHANCES at premium generals, premium mounts, weapons, etc, and then spending even MORE money on things like exp bonuses, build rate bonuses, build space, etc.

Seriously, if you want to see how much WORSE it can be, take a leap over to www.koramgame.com and try it out (it's "free" to play, in the sense that if you want ANYTHING good, you'll be spending money, period)

What you call gouging, i call free market. Surely i won't play the game you just linked .. but once again, if they are successful in luring people spending thousand of dollars, more power to them.

For me, i have other games to play.

Anyone that understands the basics of economics calls it free market, too.

Where is this 'free market' you speak of practised?

It's hard to tell if you're joking or serious. It's also entirely possible I just don't understand your question, so I'll explain how it isn't price gouging and is a free market.

Price gouging is artificial inflation of necessities, usually during/after a crisis, emergency or disaster. This is entertainment and there is no scarcity. Prices are set at what the consumer is willing to pay. If a player feels a game's prices are too high, the players go to a game where the game's prices are palatable.