Originally posted by worldalpha
Our approach is to make everything affordable to get as many paying customers as possible.

which is the best thing everyone -should- do, this whale hunting is what kills the market.

it is based on data collected during the infancy of F2P's introduction and it has become woefully outdated compared to what today's player base numbers could produce on getting everyone to pay a dollar.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by zymurgeist
At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?"

A corporate board room with a conscience? I think not.

Their goal is to bleed customers (us) out of every stinkin' cent they can get away with. Consider what might happen to board room members that question the greed machine with terms like "outrageous" and you'll have your answer.

 Conscience? No, it's a cold calculation. Reputation has market value. That's the thing corporation haters forget, they're ultimately rational or they fall.

In theory.  Matters get quite a bit different in a crony capitalist system, such as exists in the US and many other countries.

Also "rational" has different meanings, in different contexts.

Reputation *does* have great value, but that can be over ridden by government favors. Look at Comcast, which is consistently rated one of the most hated companies in the US. But that doesn't keep it from being very profitable, thanks to its monopoly status in way too many markets.

Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

I'm seeing F2P game after F2P game price gouge the fuck out of "premium services" and "boosters," sometimes for double or tripple the cost of what it would take for a monthly subscription to a P2P game .... when did this becoime ok to do?

 

I guess this is the victory lap F2P beating P2P or something: now that F2P has is clearly winning the battle VS P2P it dosen't have to keep competitive on comparable subscriptions pricing.

 

[mod edit]: the whole reason F2P took off was because it was more accessible and affordable than P2P, shit gets too bad people will just shift back in the other direction ... espacally if going B2P works out for TSW and western P2P holdouts realise that there are other options to stay competitive.

What games are you talking about specifically?

I play numerous Freemium F2P games and they are nothing like your description.

You have premium membership, the same as it was when the games were sub based, or you have free to play and unlock basic needs, gear, etc. both memberships have opportunities to buy additional items in stores, but nothing is mandatory to game play, so where do you get these figures?

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by zymurgeist
At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?"

A corporate board room with a conscience? I think not.

Their goal is to bleed customers (us) out of every stinkin' cent they can get away with. Consider what might happen to board room members that question the greed machine with terms like "outrageous" and you'll have your answer.

 Conscience? No, it's a cold calculation. Reputation has market value. That's the thing corporation haters forget, they're ultimately rational or they fall.

In theory.  Matters get quite a bit different in a crony capitalist system, such as exists in the US and many other countries.

Also "rational" has different meanings, in different contexts.

Reputation *does* have great value, but that can be over ridden by government favors. Look at Comcast, which is consistently rated one of the most hated companies in the US. But that doesn't keep it from being very profitable, thanks to its monopoly status in way too many markets.

 That doesn't really apply to gaming companies. Also even Comcast is beginning to feel the push back in many localities. When you do stupid things technology provides answers to underserved media markets. It just takes time. Politicians will likewise turn on their "friends" in a heartbeat if it suits their momentary purpose.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

Originally posted by zymurgeist
I think all the " you don't need to pay that much" posts miss the point. Of course you don't need to pay anything at all. What staggers my imagination is how is even possible to pay that much? At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?" It's like the joke about selling pencils (or whatever)  for a million dollars each because you only need to sell one.

yeah, and it's biting them in the ass now: notice how few new F2P localizations have come out this year VS last?

there is still just as many upcoming MMO's in Korea that could be localized, but western F2P localizers have poached off too many "Whales" and the return just aren't what they used to be.

Which would suggest that the actual paying customer base for F2P games is finite in the West and may well have peaked (and now be looking only at shrinking at the bubble bursts under the weight of education, buyer remorse, and other elements).

I wonder seriously if 2012/ 2013 will be remembered as the dark days of cash shop that we all look back at and think, ' how the fuck did anyone actually fall for that shit?'.

To me it says there is better competition and they don't need to go through hte hassle and expense of localization.

I think the next few years are when people will remember back when we all used to pay tons for subscriptions and think how the hell did we duped into throwing away that much money away.

The thing is when we were all paying the same £2.50 or whatever a week for our subs it didn't really matter if a small percentage of the player base left because the money was spread out.

But F2P? F2P relies on the whales spending a ton of cash to carry to game for all the freeloaders, and that means all it takes is a small percentage (the spenders) to see the light for the revenue model to fall flat on it's face. It's a house built on straw really. The cash shop F2P market is already showing signs of peaking in the West I think.

As for better competition making it not worth the cost of localisation... I am not sure that theory is very realistic.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Myria

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Which MMOs charge more than $20 for premium monthly service?

Fallen Earth's "Commander" monthly is $29.99/mo.

Commander is a VIP tier with three other tiers below it:

• FREE
• 9.99
• 14.99

http://fallenearth.gamersfirst.com/2011/09/free2play-details-and-more.html

A far cry from the OP's claim:

"I'm seeing F2P game after F2P game price gouge the fuck out of "premium services" and "boosters," sometimes for double or tripple the cost of what it would take for a monthly subscription to a P2P game"

 

You're really going to pitch that level of choice as a bad thing or as price gouging? Some of you will go to some serious lengths to hate on F2P.

 

I'm sorry Lokto, but you're shifting goalposts there. You specifically asked

"Which MMOs charge more than $20 for premium monthly service"

You don't get to handwave away the example he provided by pointing to the sub-premium services on offer. Yes choice is good. Yes, some "Free" games charge $30 a month for their top tier service.

I'm quite happy with my £50/6months EVE subscription ;)

Originally posted by bansan

It became ok when people (aka idiots) started paying those prices. What was reasonable, now becomes ridiculous, and when that happens, it is time to find new hobby or become an idiot yourself.

It is the same thing that happened with p2p.  When games first came out, people demo'd, and were careful not to pay for games that weren't worth the money.  Today, no more demos, people pay to beta, the idiots will pre-order in the millions months (years?) before the game has a release date.  Some morons even totally give up their voices by buying lifetime subscriptions...

If you were a developer, what would you do?  You mostly likely would chase the cash.  If idiots are willing to pay $25 dollars for skins, why would you charge $3?

You know...I'll never get this rationale. Just because they have or are willing to spend money on those types of things doesn't mean I'll define them as being an idiot.

Would I personally do it? Hell no....

That doesn't mean I think they're stupid or I'm going to insult others for doing so.

The "free to play" concept will only advance if the current gamer generation actually support it with all it flaws, but dont think it will stay like it is now...this will get worse in form of more clever marketing strategies.

If the current gamer generation does not refuse this kind of marketing model, the next generation will just grow up with it without the knowledge how mmorpgs did work before. So there is still some kind of power, I dont want to say responsibility, of the current consumer. You decide if such f2p concepts will succeed or not and you can decide how the future will look like.

Originally posted by lizardbones

Aren't the people who are buying thirty to fifty dollars worth of stuff in cash shops doing it of their own free will? I mean, they are choosing to buy the stuff...it's not being forced upon them, right? There are also other games available to play that don't cost nearly as much, yes? So they are choosing to play the expensive games in the first place, right?

I would say it's never not been okay to charge anyone whatever you want to charge them in a game. If people are willing to pay the price you charge, then not only is it okay, it's profitable.

I would be fine with games moving towards B2P rather than F2P myself. I don't know if games will move more in that direction, but it at least seems like a possibility.

** edit **
Heh. What nariusseldon said.

I agree with lizard and narius on this one.  

Play the ones that have a model you like and let others play the ones that have models they like.

Lately, I've found myself picking up a lot of single player RPGs on STEAM.  I'm seeing the industry slime its way into the single-player "DLC" market as well, but nothing near as pervasive as the hardcore scam tactics behind a "Free-to-Play" business model, with maybe the exception of a few games, such as Mass Effect 3 "ending" and Skyrim's housing 'content patch'.

It seems the entire industry is aiming for a way to fleece its customer base in new and "appealing" ways.

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Myria

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Which MMOs charge more than $20 for premium monthly service?

Fallen Earth's "Commander" monthly is $29.99/mo.

Commander is a VIP tier with three other tiers below it:

• FREE
• 9.99
• 14.99

http://fallenearth.gamersfirst.com/2011/09/free2play-details-and-more.html

A far cry from the OP's claim:

"I'm seeing F2P game after F2P game price gouge the fuck out of "premium services" and "boosters," sometimes for double or tripple the cost of what it would take for a monthly subscription to a P2P game"

You're really going to pitch that level of choice as a bad thing or as price gouging? Some of you will go to some serious lengths to hate on F2P.

I'm sorry Lokto, but you're shifting goalposts there. You specifically asked

"Which MMOs charge more than $20 for premium monthly service"

You don't get to handwave away the example he provided by pointing to the sub-premium services on offer. Yes choice is good. Yes, some "Free" games charge $30 a month for their top tier service.

I'm quite happy with my £50/6months EVE subscription ;)

I don't see how that's shifting the goalpost. His post (quoted above) and the subject line ("When did it become OK to charge $30 - $50 for a month of premium in F2P?") both specifically stated premium service.

Commander is an option meant specifically for guild leaders, not the average player, because the main perks are the leader auras.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

Originally posted by zymurgeist
I think all the " you don't need to pay that much" posts miss the point. Of course you don't need to pay anything at all. What staggers my imagination is how is even possible to pay that much? At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?" It's like the joke about selling pencils (or whatever)  for a million dollars each because you only need to sell one.

yeah, and it's biting them in the ass now: notice how few new F2P localizations have come out this year VS last?

there is still just as many upcoming MMO's in Korea that could be localized, but western F2P localizers have poached off too many "Whales" and the return just aren't what they used to be.

Which would suggest that the actual paying customer base for F2P games is finite in the West and may well have peaked (and now be looking only at shrinking at the bubble bursts under the weight of education, buyer remorse, and other elements).

I wonder seriously if 2012/ 2013 will be remembered as the dark days of cash shop that we all look back at and think, ' how the fuck did anyone actually fall for that shit?'.

To me it says there is better competition and they don't need to go through hte hassle and expense of localization.

I think the next few years are when people will remember back when we all used to pay tons for subscriptions and think how the hell did we duped into throwing away that much money away.

 

The thing is when we were all paying the same £2.50 or whatever a week for our subs it didn't really matter if a small percentage of the player base left because the money was spread out.

But F2P? F2P relies on the whales spending a ton of cash to carry to game for all the freeloaders, and that means all it takes is a small percentage (the spenders) to see the light for the revenue model to fall flat on it's face. It's a house built on straw really. The cash shop F2P market is already showing signs of peaking in the West I think.

As for better competition making it not worth the cost of localisation... I am not sure that theory is very realistic.

 

 

Its more likely the difference in cultures (Asian/Western), that is limiting the uptake in the western F2P business model.  Its certainly made some inroads, but only at the expense of alienating quite some number of players.  Having dealt with both extensively over the years, all I really care about is if the game is entertaining. 

But for many in the west, its almost like F2P is against their religion... ^^

I'm pretty sure you don't "have to" pay 30-50$ for your premium.  Those are probably mostly for VIP premium.

You can just pick the normal premium which usually is like 15$ as typical subcription game.

You have to remember the idea of f2p is you target a portion of the players to make them pay more so other people can play for free.  Either way, someone have to pay, so the company can make money.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

Originally posted by zymurgeist
I think all the " you don't need to pay that much" posts miss the point. Of course you don't need to pay anything at all. What staggers my imagination is how is even possible to pay that much? At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?" It's like the joke about selling pencils (or whatever)  for a million dollars each because you only need to sell one.

yeah, and it's biting them in the ass now: notice how few new F2P localizations have come out this year VS last?

there is still just as many upcoming MMO's in Korea that could be localized, but western F2P localizers have poached off too many "Whales" and the return just aren't what they used to be.

Which would suggest that the actual paying customer base for F2P games is finite in the West and may well have peaked (and now be looking only at shrinking at the bubble bursts under the weight of education, buyer remorse, and other elements).

I wonder seriously if 2012/ 2013 will be remembered as the dark days of cash shop that we all look back at and think, ' how the fuck did anyone actually fall for that shit?'.

To me it says there is better competition and they don't need to go through hte hassle and expense of localization.

I think the next few years are when people will remember back when we all used to pay tons for subscriptions and think how the hell did we duped into throwing away that much money away.

 

The thing is when we were all paying the same £2.50 or whatever a week for our subs it didn't really matter if a small percentage of the player base left because the money was spread out.

But F2P? F2P relies on the whales spending a ton of cash to carry to game for all the freeloaders, and that means all it takes is a small percentage (the spenders) to see the light for the revenue model to fall flat on it's face. It's a house built on straw really. The cash shop F2P market is already showing signs of peaking in the West I think.

As for better competition making it not worth the cost of localisation... I am not sure that theory is very realistic.

 

 

Its more likely the difference in cultures (Asian/Western), that is limiting the uptake in the western F2P business model.  Its certainly made some inroads, but only at the expense of alienating quite some number of players.  Having dealt with both extensively over the years, all I really care about is if the game is entertaining. 

But for many in the west, its almost like F2P is against their religion... ^^

It would help a great deal if they quit focusing on their idea of "Westernizing" a game. Translate it, change what you have to and thats it. 

The westernization of many eastern games is in the end what killed the game. The f2p aspect just sped up the process.  

Here's a little secret, "Nothing in life is free."

F2P is just a marketing tool.  At best a game could be free if they use advertising in it somehow to pay for it, but the most common use of the F2P model is the same one crack dealers use.  The first little bit is free to give you a taste, but if you really want the good stuff you gotta pay for it.  The way the F2P model has started shifting, they know some people are willing to get a sub par experience and pay nothing, so now they are making sure they nickel and dime the high end so much it makes up for the low end players.  So while F2P ranges from being almost free and just charging for minimal add ons all the way to basically paying more than a monthly sub would cost, the idea as a whole is just marketing and it's going to end up costing most players the same if not more than the monthly base subscription model did.

Originally posted by Piiritus
It became OK when louder part of MMO players started to claim that monthly fee of 15 usd for everything is bad and restrictive. Now you either cough out 4-5 times more or grind until your teeth are blue. Never understood people moaning about a few dollars and now we have what we have - f2p shite everywhere requiring you to pay hundreds to be able to enjoy the game.

I agree with this mostly.  It is the perception of free that wins out.  Then you think. . hey I could play this for $5 a month. . then it is $10 (still better than $15) and soon you get bored because you won't spend money or you spend more than $15 a month.

This is not true for everyone of course.  For a really casual gamer like myself it is fine.  I can log into LOTRO or Fallen Earth and play a few hours a month at no cost and get the fix I need.

Originally posted by Aethaeryn

Originally posted by Piiritus
It became OK when louder part of MMO players started to claim that monthly fee of 15 usd for everything is bad and restrictive. Now you either cough out 4-5 times more or grind until your teeth are blue. Never understood people moaning about a few dollars and now we have what we have - f2p shite everywhere requiring you to pay hundreds to be able to enjoy the game.

I agree with this mostly.  It is the perception of free that wins out.  Then you think. . hey I could play this for $5 a month. . then it is $10 (still better than $15) and soon you get bored because you won't spend money or you spend more than $15 a month.

This is not true for everyone of course.  For a really casual gamer like myself it is fine.  I can log into LOTRO or Fallen Earth and play a few hours a month at no cost and get the fix I need.

I don't mind b2p or f2p games per se but I prefer choice - I'd prefer my main as a p2p where I get everything for a certain amount of money I pay every month (be it 5, 10, 15, 20 or 25+ usd) and then there can be some b2p games that are not greedy like TSW and GW2. I just hate f2p/p2w shite that requires you to fork out cash for every single pixel.

Originally posted by shinkan

It's no secret that someone has to pay for the "F2P", its not the rec cross or salvation army we're talking about. but this is what many people wanted and now they got it. The cost of these game to fully enjoy them now is just much more distorted and the real cost can easily be more "hidden".

Its really like with all those low cost / cheap airlines, they have lots of hidden away costs, that make it much harder to calculate the real cost of the product you want/need (seat reservation, extra luggage, etc).

Blame the I want everything for free generation

What generation is this?