Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

Originally posted by zymurgeist
I think all the " you don't need to pay that much" posts miss the point. Of course you don't need to pay anything at all. What staggers my imagination is how is even possible to pay that much? At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?" It's like the joke about selling pencils (or whatever)  for a million dollars each because you only need to sell one.

yeah, and it's biting them in the ass now: notice how few new F2P localizations have come out this year VS last?

there is still just as many upcoming MMO's in Korea that could be localized, but western F2P localizers have poached off too many "Whales" and the return just aren't what they used to be.

Which would suggest that the actual paying customer base for F2P games is finite in the West and may well have peaked (and now be looking only at shrinking at the bubble bursts under the weight of education, buyer remorse, and other elements).

I wonder seriously if 2012/ 2013 will be remembered as the dark days of cash shop that we all look back at and think, ' how the fuck did anyone actually fall for that shit?'.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

You're really going to pitch that level of choice as a bad thing or as price gouging? Some of you will go to some serious lengths to hate on F2P.

This is what I love about MMORPG. I didn't "pitch" anything, nor did I say jack squat about the OP, nor did I say diddly about liking or hating F2P. I answered a question -- simply, accurately, and inarguably.

Someone wanted to know what MMO has a premium sub over $20 and FE, whether you think it makes F2P look bad or not, does.

Whether there are other levels is irrelevant to the original question.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

Originally posted by zymurgeist
I think all the " you don't need to pay that much" posts miss the point. Of course you don't need to pay anything at all. What staggers my imagination is how is even possible to pay that much? At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?" It's like the joke about selling pencils (or whatever)  for a million dollars each because you only need to sell one.

yeah, and it's biting them in the ass now: notice how few new F2P localizations have come out this year VS last?

there is still just as many upcoming MMO's in Korea that could be localized, but western F2P localizers have poached off too many "Whales" and the return just aren't what they used to be.

 

Which would suggest that the actual paying customer base for F2P games is finite in the West and may well have peaked (and now be looking only at shrinking at the bubble bursts under the weight of education, buyer remorse, and other elements).

I wonder seriously if 2012/ 2013 will be remembered as the dark days of cash shop that we all look back at and think, ' how the fuck did anyone actually fall for that shit?'.

I think it has more to do with the number of western games going f2p and saturating the market to the point were it is no longer as enticing for publishers to localize eastern games.  The customer base for everything is finite.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

Originally posted by zymurgeist
I think all the " you don't need to pay that much" posts miss the point. Of course you don't need to pay anything at all. What staggers my imagination is how is even possible to pay that much? At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?" It's like the joke about selling pencils (or whatever)  for a million dollars each because you only need to sell one.

yeah, and it's biting them in the ass now: notice how few new F2P localizations have come out this year VS last?

there is still just as many upcoming MMO's in Korea that could be localized, but western F2P localizers have poached off too many "Whales" and the return just aren't what they used to be.

Which would suggest that the actual paying customer base for F2P games is finite in the West and may well have peaked (and now be looking only at shrinking at the bubble bursts under the weight of education, buyer remorse, and other elements).

I wonder seriously if 2012/ 2013 will be remembered as the dark days of cash shop that we all look back at and think, ' how the fuck did anyone actually fall for that shit?'.

To me it says there is better competition and they don't need to go through hte hassle and expense of localization.

I think the next few years are when people will remember back when we all used to pay tons for subscriptions and think how the hell did we duped into throwing away that much money away.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

To me it says there is better competition and they don't need to go through hte hassle and expense of localization.

I think the next few years are when people will remember back when we all used to pay tons for subscriptions and think how the hell did we duped into throwing away that much money away.

You know, I'm not sure why you think this.  Once everything goes a la carte, prices will go up.  Right now F2P can save some money for some people but once things get stablized and the market gets defined more, you will end up paying more in the long run.  Companies don't create revenue models that generate less money.

What you are counting on is volume, meaning if there's a huge population of players, it only takes a small percentage to pay high fees to make companies happy.  Problem is, they are never happy.  They will find a way to increase the percentage of players spending money and how much. 

I expect sub rates to go up too.  The only reason they haven't gone up is because of cash shops + subs.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

Originally posted by zymurgeist
I think all the " you don't need to pay that much" posts miss the point. Of course you don't need to pay anything at all. What staggers my imagination is how is even possible to pay that much? At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?" It's like the joke about selling pencils (or whatever)  for a million dollars each because you only need to sell one.

yeah, and it's biting them in the ass now: notice how few new F2P localizations have come out this year VS last?

there is still just as many upcoming MMO's in Korea that could be localized, but western F2P localizers have poached off too many "Whales" and the return just aren't what they used to be.

Which would suggest that the actual paying customer base for F2P games is finite in the West and may well have peaked (and now be looking only at shrinking at the bubble bursts under the weight of education, buyer remorse, and other elements).

I wonder seriously if 2012/ 2013 will be remembered as the dark days of cash shop that we all look back at and think, ' how the fuck did anyone actually fall for that shit?'.

To me it says there is better competition and they don't need to go through hte hassle and expense of localization.

I think the next few years are when people will remember back when we all used to pay tons for subscriptions and think how the hell did we duped into throwing away that much money away.

The F2P games that come out of Asia are more likely to be p2w as well and the market for that has dried up consiberably.

Originally posted by SpectralHunter

 

I expect sub rates to go up too.  The only reason they haven't gone up is because of cash shops + subs.

In a free market that would be the case, but the only reason sub prices haven't increased is because WOW hasn't raised their price.  

Originally posted by Myria

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Which MMOs charge more than $20 for premium monthly service?

Fallen Earth's "Commander" monthly is $29.99/mo.

As one option that only gets you an "aura" that buffs others in your group.  It is one choice.

It's no secret that someone has to pay for the "F2P", its not the rec cross or salvation army we're talking about. but this is what many people wanted and now they got it. The cost of these game to fully enjoy them now is just much more distorted and the real cost can easily be more "hidden".

Its really like with all those low cost / cheap airlines, they have lots of hidden away costs, that make it much harder to calculate the real cost of the product you want/need (seat reservation, extra luggage, etc).

Blame the I want everything for free generation

Originally posted by bansan

It became ok when people (aka idiots) started paying those prices.

So...1994 then. "Platinum" sub for fifty per. Of course, that was positively a relief after paying $12 per hour back in the GEnie days.

No point, except today's players seem to react always with astonishment when reminded that not everyone's entertainment budget is limited. There's nothing new under the sun, particularly not 'premium' access services. It's worth...what it's worth to a given individual. Neither more or less.

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

quality lies with the design, not the pricing structure; there are plenty of P2P games that are total shit from day one.

games that were developed to be F2P from the ground up are typically exceptional titles. granted that they tend to be smaller titles with a heavier slant on PVP to fill in the gaps, but they are still generally worth playing and (IMO) are a little more rewarding due to their quick progression.

it's all in how you look at it: F2P monetizes things that P2P gives out for free, but progression in such games is usually MUCH faster, with higher rewards for your effort VS P2P progression rates. P2P gives you everything for free, but typically makes the requirements for said items unbelievably time consuming. When it comes down to it, $50 for a high level mount may actually be more affordable than the cost in sub fees it will take you to get to the point you can actually access the comparable content.

the worst ones (which happen to most of the early F2P conversions, and the root cause for the stigma against F2P) are the ones that were designed with P2P progression rates, then converted to F2P; resulting in games that progress at the P2P snail's pace, but still make you pay for notable items in a cash shop.

Your statements are BS.  The fundamental design of P2W games is based on monetization.  Without this core design these companies don't make money, and the tradeoff for this design phliosphy is quality. 

 

Your progression rate statements are ridiculous.  The core design of the cash shop model is to throw in hurdles so people purchase the advancement (item).   It is there to encourage you to purchase items.   Why would they make things easier so you would be less inclined to purchase?

 

     

 

 

Well, you need to understand that not every Free to Play game is Pay to Win.  League of legends is a pretty good example of this where you are only paying to speed up something that would otherwise take time to level up and unlock the important things like runes.

I think Sogi's assessment is pretty much spot on, except this part: games that were developed to be F2P from the ground up are typically exceptional titles.

There are a LOT of free to play games designed to be free to play from the ground up - they mostly come from asian, specifically Korea.  And they are shit.  Complete, utter, shit.  But, the market is becoming so saturated with free to play titles that gamers now have more options and no longer have to settle with the shittiest of shitty free to play titles.

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by zymurgeist
At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?"

A corporate board room with a conscience? I think not.

Their goal is to bleed customers (us) out of every stinkin' cent they can get away with. Consider what might happen to board room members that question the greed machine with terms like "outrageous" and you'll have your answer.

Its their duty to their share holders to make the best ROI that they can.  If they over do it, then they lose out on the mid to long term profits to be had.  Unfortunately, all too many suits think only in terms of this quarter.  Thats how various shit happens.

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by zymurgeist
At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?"

A corporate board room with a conscience? I think not.

Their goal is to bleed customers (us) out of every stinkin' cent they can get away with. Consider what might happen to board room members that question the greed machine with terms like "outrageous" and you'll have your answer.

Greed is good. To get customers money, they need to provide something that is fun .. and competition compete down teh prices.

I don't need devs to be saints. I only need them to provide a fun entertainment product, preferably at low prices, and F2P fits that bill perfectly. .

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by bansan

It became ok when people (aka idiots) started paying those prices.

So...1994 then. "Platinum" sub for fifty per. Of course, that was positively a relief after paying $12 per hour back in the GEnie days.

No point, except today's players seem to react always with astonishment when reminded that not everyone's entertainment budget is limited. There's nothing new under the sun, particularly not 'premium' access services. It's worth...what it's worth to a given individual. Neither more or less.

This is really well said.  I remember how Prodigy used to charge too. 

If there was a like button I might post less and click more.  No point with that either, but I would rather have just clicked that I liked your comment than wasting a bunch of space with my blather.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Onomas

Shouldnt have cried about a 15$ a month or 50 cents a day sub lol. Now you are stuck with outrageous f2p cash shops which more go pay to win lol.

 

Actually it's the SUBSCRIPTION that costs more not the F2P.  I spend nowhere near that much a month per game for any of my games.

But, since it's a sub, what's wrong with paying a dollar a day.  I mean if 50 cents is pocket change surely another 50 is peanuts as well.  Why are the sub people complaining about the cost of their subs?

To get the same out of a f2p as a pay to play you are spending a great deal more than that $15 a month. 

Lets look at SWTOR, probably the worste example but... lets use it anyways. 

 

As a free to play player in SWTOR it's first going to cost you $100-$180 off the rip to unlock everything. Then it's going to cost you an additional $56 a month to get access to everything lol. 

 

 

"You have to pay for four different passes to unlock four of the game's five content avenues (all but the story) and each weekly pass is 240 cartel coins. As each cartel coin costs a little over 0.727 cents USD each, 240 per pass, four passes per character, two characters, four passes a month = 7680CC, or $55.84.

Now obviously, no sane person is going to actually pay $56 a month for SWTOR. They're going to pay the $15 subscription fee, or they're not going to pay at all. Which makes one thing very painfully obvious: SWTOR's F2P isn't meant to be a free-to-play MMORPG; it's meant to be an excessively contrived demo to get people to sign up for subscriptions."

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/183525/the_burning_of_star_wars_the_old_.php

 

 

 

 

So you took a horrid game with the worst F2P format to use as your example. Ok fine lets use Aion. Ok $0 a month.

---

here are a LOT of free to play games designed to be free to play from the ground up - they mostly come from asian, specifically Korea.  And they are shit.  Complete, utter, shit.

---

yeah, well .... *shrug* I think you are also not considering that in Korea their MMO market is also fused with their social / casual games market.

Farmville is a MMO in every possible way except that the western market doesn't want it classified as such.

bad mechanics are bad mechanics, any game can have those, any game can also have a shitty cash shop and or P2P structure. In general, if a game is designed from the ground up with the concept that players will be purchasing in game items with out of game money, you will typically see little disturbance on gameplay in the form of cash shop hurdles.

it is all a matter of integration, something that was built for it will always work better than having it hacked in after development (see TOR). even today, most of what we see getting localized over here is still only second generation F2P titles that while they may have launched as F2P, most of their development was done during the P2P era.

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by zymurgeist
At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?"

A corporate board room with a conscience? I think not.

Their goal is to bleed customers (us) out of every stinkin' cent they can get away with. Consider what might happen to board room members that question the greed machine with terms like "outrageous" and you'll have your answer.

 Conscience? No, it's a cold calculation. Reputation has market value. That's the thing corporation haters forget, they're ultimately rational or they fall.

I would much rather pay $15 a month and also have to pay for transfers from dead servers, pets, mounts, etc....

I'm a smart consumer.