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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » I don't understand the general consensus on this forum...

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67 posts found
  kartool

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 462

12/29/12 11:08:05 AM#21
Originally posted by skeaser
Originally posted by grimfall
It should be pointed out that everyone pretty much admits that Rift was a WoW clone.  A well done one with some interesting features, but even it's fans understand that.

Rift is not the first either. For the AAA games of the top of my head:

AoC: WoW with "mature" setting and action-esque combat

Rift: WoW with dynamic events

Aion: WoW with wings

SWTOR: WoW with lightsabers

WAR: WoW with moar PvP

etc. etc.

The problem is that when a game tries to step outside the WoW zone like TSW or FFXIV did, they fail. Now, neither of these games failed because they weren't WoW clones, they failed because they didn't deliver entertainment. The problem is that other publishers see this and start to think straying away from the WoW formula is too risky. 

Please enlighten me and tell me how TSW failed? 

  Kasmos

Novice Member

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 603

12/29/12 11:15:28 AM#22

WoW in itself is not inherently bad. It's a great game for the people it caters to, and I enjoyed vanilla WoW until they (in my opinion) destroyed everything that was good about it.

However, people attribute things to WoW because it was THE game that changed the MMO genre, and for many of us, we strongly believe for the much worse.

There are people who like sandbox MMOs that are player driven, and there are people that like themepark MMOs that are more like WoW.

  Slampig

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2389

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

12/29/12 11:19:41 AM#23

To me, a lot of these people that complain about WoW left and right, that use "WoW clone" like they are breathing, that complain of how it "ruined" MMOs, are showing me that they are just as unoriginal as the game they claim is the ruination of this entire genre.

It reminds me of the people that can't stop crying about SWG... Things change, no game will stay forever. If you don't like something why do we need to hear about it in every other post in every single thread?

 

Tiresome.

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  Sukiyaki

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 1298

12/29/12 11:22:55 AM#24

Sure, its wasn't the countless delusional, clueless and rabid WoW fanbois and MMORPG virgins, who started and keep calling every 3D MMORPG released since ~1995 a "WoW clone".

Its the WoW haters trying to "brand" WoW as a bad game comparing it to "bad and failed games"...

 

 

Also "general concensus on this forum"

Someone needs to lay off the kool-aid.

  User Deleted
12/29/12 11:26:35 AM#25
Originally posted by rikarus92

It's almost become a derogatory term, as if playing Rift or SWTOR (two games eerily similar to WoW that noone likes to admit) makes you a better person or something. Its like WoW is a scapegoat in place of someone saying "a bad game" they say "WoW-clone".

The highlighted portion seems like a very sneaky way for you to do the same thing you accuse others of doing on this forum, don't you think?

  User Deleted
12/29/12 11:26:50 AM#26

The interesting thing is that often the most vocal people who like to bash WoW are also the same people who claim they "never played that kiddie trash" or "only got to level 30 before I was too bored to go on" ...

 

Apparently they think that someone with little or no experience with WoW should be the mouthpiece for The People to unite behind in their fight against the MMO behemoth!!

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2734

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/29/12 11:36:53 AM#27

Welcome to MMORPGSANDBOX.com

 

As sickening as the love for all things sandbox is here, the hate for anything different from WoW themepark is even worse.  Things like GW2 and ESO are huge setbacks to the genre according to the folks here.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  niceguy3978

Elite Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 1994

12/29/12 11:43:16 AM#28
Originally posted by Sukiyaki

Sure, its wasn't the countless delusional, clueless and rabid WoW fanbois and MMORPG virgins, who started and keep calling every 3D MMORPG released since ~1995 a "WoW clone".

Its the WoW haters trying to "brand" WoW as a bad game comparing it to "bad and failed games"...

 

 

Also "general concensus on this forum"

Someone needs to lay off the kool-aid.

It may have started out that way, I honestly don't know for sure.  The first game I remember being called a WoW clone was LOTRO and I couldn't tell you if it was WoW fans saying this or not.  Today, however, it seems to be primarily sandbox fans calling everything that isn't a sandbox a WoW clone.  This could just be an evolution of the term though.

  Phaserlight

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/04
Posts: 707

Do you want to improve the world? I don't think it can be done. -Lao Tzu

12/29/12 11:49:34 AM#29

World of Warcraft is an excellent game built on highly innovative principles that draws from a healthy trove of backlore stretching all the way back to 1994.  I played it for 3 months circa spring 2005.  It was not my first MMORPG.  Vendetta Online was my first, unless you count MUDs, in which case it would be Avatar MUD.

Certain key things in the WoW basic gameplay structure eventually turned me off, but that's not really important, and it's not what this thread is about.  What I think this thread is about is the WoW clones... developers and game studios who took it for granted that in order to be successful one must copy certain aspects of WoW gameplay, right down to the UI.  I watched dozens spring up over the years with some amusement.  I think what made WoW so succesful was not the elements which other game companies sometimes unabashedly tried to copy, but the process of world building that went into the game in the first place.

Every so often an indie dev group comes along and tries something new and unique, however it tends to get lost under the shadow of the elephant in the room: WoW.  To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, let's look at some Google trends; here is the game I am most interested in and that I think gets it Right.  Here is that game compared to what most people think of when you say the words "internet spaceships".  Here are both of those games compared to WoW.

...so now, why am I a part of this site?

"To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
Check it out on Steam

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19078

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

12/29/12 11:58:36 AM#30
Originally posted by kartool
Originally posted by skeaser
Originally posted by grimfall
It should be pointed out that everyone pretty much admits that Rift was a WoW clone.  A well done one with some interesting features, but even it's fans understand that.

Rift is not the first either. For the AAA games of the top of my head:

AoC: WoW with "mature" setting and action-esque combat

Rift: WoW with dynamic events

Aion: WoW with wings

SWTOR: WoW with lightsabers

WAR: WoW with moar PvP

etc. etc.

The problem is that when a game tries to step outside the WoW zone like TSW or FFXIV did, they fail. Now, neither of these games failed because they weren't WoW clones, they failed because they didn't deliver entertainment. The problem is that other publishers see this and start to think straying away from the WoW formula is too risky. 

Please enlighten me and tell me how TSW failed? 

 

Perhaps you should go back and reread the Devs report back to the shareholders that not only did TSW fail to come close to the high end sales projections, it missed the worst case estimates by a considerable margin as well. If you need another clue, look how fast it moved to F2P, almost record time for a AAA MMO title. As for the OP, WOW is just the 800 pound gorilla in the room and it's influence has been felt in far too many other titles that followed after it, at least in the opinion of many posters on this forum. If you're still having fun playing WOW, GAME ON I say.

Arrogant, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  grimfall

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/07
Posts: 1157

12/29/12 12:18:14 PM#31
Originally posted by kartool
Originally posted by skeaser
Originally posted by grimfall
It should be pointed out that everyone pretty much admits that Rift was a WoW clone.  A well done one with some interesting features, but even it's fans understand that.

Rift is not the first either. For the AAA games of the top of my head:

AoC: WoW with "mature" setting and action-esque combat

Rift: WoW with dynamic events

Aion: WoW with wings

SWTOR: WoW with lightsabers

WAR: WoW with moar PvP

etc. etc.

The problem is that when a game tries to step outside the WoW zone like TSW or FFXIV did, they fail. Now, neither of these games failed because they weren't WoW clones, they failed because they didn't deliver entertainment. The problem is that other publishers see this and start to think straying away from the WoW formula is too risky. 

Please enlighten me and tell me how TSW failed? 

You missed the LOTR sig, too.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2734

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/29/12 12:24:00 PM#32
Originally posted by skeaser
Originally posted by grimfall
It should be pointed out that everyone pretty much admits that Rift was a WoW clone.  A well done one with some interesting features, but even it's fans understand that.

Rift is not the first either. For the AAA games of the top of my head:

AoC: WoW with "mature" setting and action-esque combat

Rift: WoW with dynamic events

Aion: WoW with wings

SWTOR: WoW with lightsabers

WAR: WoW with moar PvP

etc. etc.

The problem is that when a game tries to step outside the WoW zone like TSW or FFXIV did, they fail. Now, neither of these games failed because they weren't WoW clones, they failed because they didn't deliver entertainment. The problem is that other publishers see this and start to think straying away from the WoW formula is too risky. 

Reason why TSW failed was because it's character combat and animations were poorly done and the endgame was EXACTLY like WoW.  Seeing as endgame is the most prevelant stage of a characters life you would think they would innovate it the most.  FFXIV failed because the game was horrible and buggy.

 

GW2 stepped out of the WoW model and next year we have games like Neverwinter and ESO to carry on the non-WoW like model.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  ste2000

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 4734

12/29/12 12:42:23 PM#33
Originally posted by rikarus92

It seems like no matter what thread you pick, no matter what the topic is, there's atleast 2 people saying how much WoW sucks, or when someone says "This game looks alright.", someone says "It looks like a game for WoW players!"

 

It's almost become a derogatory term, as if playing Rift or SWTOR (two games eerily similar to WoW that noone likes to admit) makes you a better person or something. Its like WoW is a scapegoat in place of someone saying "a bad game" they say "WoW-clone".

I doubt you are a MMO vet as you claim, or read this forums often.

If you do you'd know that generally players admit that WOW is a good game.

Personally I played WoW 3 years, it is not my favorite MMO but definetly it is one of the best.

Having said that when people mention it in their post in a derogatory way, they are actually making it a compliment.

What people say basically is that if people want to play a game similar to WoW they'd play the original because it is already perfect as it is.

What we are saying is that developers should stop doing WOW clones because the best WOW is already out and very successful, there is no need for another one.

WOW indirectly is killing the MMO genre and that's why people are angry, it is not Blizzard fault, it is other developers fault that cannot make anything original.

So when players give a game the "WOW clone" denomination, it is another way to boycott a game that hopes to be a success on the back of Blizzard game

Nothing against WOW, but everything against those uninspired developers who don't have the balls to make something on their own.

 

PS: The only negative feedback I have against WOW is the Community, the worst in the game industry.

If it wasn't for the Community I would still play the damn game.

  IIIcurrier

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/05
Posts: 109

12/29/12 12:43:06 PM#34
Originally posted by rikarus92

It seems like no matter what thread you pick, no matter what the topic is, there's atleast 2 people saying how much WoW sucks, or when someone says "This game looks alright.", someone says "It looks like a game for WoW players!"

 

It's almost become a derogatory term, as if playing Rift or SWTOR (two games eerily similar to WoW that noone likes to admit) makes you a better person or something. Its like WoW is a scapegoat in place of someone saying "a bad game" they say "WoW-clone".

 

Now, I won't butter it up, i've been playing MMO's since a little ways after Ultima Online launched, and quite honestly, until somebody does something drastically different that changes the industry, I'm going to keep playing WoW. Nobody in the last 5 or so years has done anything dramatically different, it's still all the same formula. Regardless of whether WoW is the "bandwagon" game according to many of you, you really can't argue it's overall scope crushes 90% of the MMO's out there. Some of these MMO's i see getting released have a level cap at 40, 8 or 9 zones, Warrior, Thief, Mage, Cleric as their only classes and no other even close to redeeming features, yet even then people will play these games over WoW. 

 

You can all tell me how I'm less of a gamer for playing it now if you like, just giving my two cents.

Until there is Asheron's Call/Wurm with an innovative and world changing options to quests like Fable/Witcher/recent Bethesda quests ( though that's about all they did right ).

Character building, terrain forming, realistic lands and multi-way quest lines.

Add in that I can control the game with my mind, and maybe CCP's carbon engine + Euclideon's engine , and I'll pay for it.

 

Turbines AC2 is a perfect example of what is going wrong in the community, so is EQ2. I don't know why it's exactly happening but I think its the mass intake of players who play the game for the name, instead of a community playing a game because it is awesome, games used to consist of people who like Medival reinacting or writing/reading fantasy, SF, now that populations is very very small, and they cannot exert enough man power to get games changed in a positive way.

  redcapp

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/11
Posts: 733

12/30/12 7:05:47 PM#35

I can only speak for myself here, but my problem with WoW is that it brought the 'themepark' style MMO to mainstream.  Nothing wrong with that, and I'm glad many people enjoy the game and others like it.

 

What I was *hoping* the genre would do is evolve the ideas that UO was founded upon.  So, it's not that WoW is bad, it's just that I personally want something else. 

 

Now, WoW clones on the other hand.. are a problem, IMO.  None of them are actually as good as WoW, but they're (mostly) all that is being produced on a large scale because people want to mimic WoW's success.  So I'm just waiting for something else. 

  Marirranya

Novice Member

Joined: 12/13/12
Posts: 154

1/03/13 12:05:10 AM#36
i loved wow - played it for nearly 5 years :3

There are people who play games and then there are gamers.

http://alzplz.blogspot.com

  Grunty

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/06/04
Posts: 6823

1/03/13 1:16:23 AM#37
There are over 300 games listed on this site. You don't understand the general consensus here because there isn't one to be understood.
  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

1/03/13 1:30:01 AM#38
I hate WoW because I view it as a destructive force in game design. I don't care that it brought a lot of people to the genre. You can put me on the list of anti-WoW guys. Having said that, if anyone enjoys the game I don't begrudge them that or think less of them.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  Adamantine

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3321

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

1/03/13 1:51:02 AM#39

I dont understand the OPs definition of "general consensus".

Just because every thread has some people doing some things doesnt mean its general consensus.

 

  allendale5

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 125

1/03/13 1:58:55 AM#40

People can say what they want in their responses to this thread but the truth is that when most forum posters use the term 'WoW clone' or some other derivitive, they do mean it to be negative.  If you go and read those references, you will see that nearly all of them connote a negative meaning as their primary point.  

I think that we are just tired of playing the same game over and over; but that there is nothing wrong with this feeling.  We get excited of some new game and then find out it is essentially the same game with different maps and different names for the same damn stuff.  

The odd part is that when a game does stray from the basic WoW formula, it is severely ridiculed; and the player base usually starts demanding patches that bring it back in line with that with which they are familiar : WoW.  

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