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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Dark Age of Camelot 2.... It is time

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  lindhsky

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/07
Posts: 111

12/27/12 9:31:17 AM#21

I always mention DAOC as the best game I have played and I have played them all. But like some already have said in this thread - you remember the good parts and forget the bad.

The bad

The expansions - destroyed the fun for me. Not because I hate to pay to get new content because I buy everything, but to sell those expansions they put in some classes and some items that were ridicolous. And that made the pvp unbalanced and extremely boring.

Buffbots - They didn't have any range on the buffs so you could spec your cleric/druid/shaman for the best buffs. Buff your players and then put the buffer in the portalkeep where no one could hurt them. So to be able to compete you had to have a buffbot. The buffs made the hero impossible to beat unless you had the same buffs yourself.

The good

When I try to expain to others what made DAOC so good I simply can't. It was a special feeling but not sure why. Maybe because it was the first game I played with that kind of rvr/pvp?

- Good enemies were legends. I remember when I saw killspam from some enemies and you knew they were close your heart started to beat faster. Killspam in the chatbox was interesting.

- Good heroes on our side were special as well. Not sure why. Maybe because there were no general chat. So when you got invited to their groups/raids you really wanted to act good.

- Darkness falls. Three factions fought to get this and it was actually good to have. You needed the money, you got seals etc that helped for crafting. The battles in there when one factions had it and it opened up for another faction were epic. And when some stealthers were tearing up your friends in the newbie area in that dungeon and you killed them you became a hero.

- Classes. Lots of interesting classes in all three factions.

- Rewards! You didn't have to get points and stuff for everything you did. For an example - taking an empty keep didn't give you anything. But you knew the enemies would come and killing the enemies gave points. In Warhammer you got points for everything so instead of fighting eachother like in DAOC the armies avoided eachother to get points taking empty keeps. We had fights in DAOC at some wall just because people wanted action because action gave points.

- The different paths to pvp. We had no instanced pvp thank god. If people wanted pvp and get their realm abilities they had to go to the frontier. And in there you could go with the zerg taking keeps, or fighting zerg vs zerg, go with a gankgroup of eight fighting other gankgroups or much larger numbers, smallscale battles with just a few friends, fighting as a stealther at bridges and walls. It was so much fun whatever you did.

- Crafters were needed. I didn't craft but needed one when I hit 50 to get good gear and to get it spellcrafted. I remember a crafter on our server were famous just because of his crafting and nothing else.

- Realmpride! When another faction took your keep you took it back. If you lost some battles because the other factions had larger numbers you had to play it much smarter. Nowadays people just jump into a scenario/battleground when they are outnumbered which never fixes the problem.

- Realmabilities were special for every class and you wanted them so bad because they were good.

 

Just some of the good things about DAOC. Nowadays games give out rewards too easily and players want action when they log in (of course) and they want even numbers and that is why i don't think a DAOC 2 will be successful. Keeptaking etc is just something you can do but you don't have to. Just click a button and join a queue for some instanced pvp that you play over and over again to get your points versus even numbers. People don't want to roam a big zone in hope of finding action like in DAOC. People don't want to take a keep and wait for the enemies to come to get action.

 

 

My Own Browsergame:

http://www.heroesoftheclan.com/

  PsiKahn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 124

12/27/12 10:37:15 AM#22

I'm afraid the time has come and gone for DAoC 2.  Even at its peak, DAoC posted subscriber numbers that would be considered vastly insufficient for a major publisher like EA in a post-WoW world.  Moreover, even extremely well-known IPs have struggled in the oversaturated MMO market (SWTOR, anyone?).

What made DAoC a great game were a lot of small, ineffable things that are often overlooked in modern appraisal, and were even overlooked in its own expansions.  Realm pride.  An understated, realist art style that made your character feel like your own.  Enough classes and spec options to carve out your own niche.  Group-focused PvE gameplay.  

I think a game that wants to continue in this spirit should be an evolution thereof, not a retread of what was done.  Give me something more fluid in its blending of PvE and PvP gameplay, with less of an emphasis and the oft-decried "grind."  Better, more action oriented combat mechanics.  DAoC 2 will not likely ever see the light of day but I think if developers start taking the right things from the original, we stand to benefit from some worthy spiritual successors.

  Ghavrigg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 730

12/27/12 10:43:04 AM#23

DAoC was made in essentially an entirely different world in regards to MMOs. Mythic is absorbed into EA, and after the WAR debacle, will never be given the resources to create DAoC 2, and at this point, I highly doubt they'd have the ability to do the game justice even if it were an option for them.

WAR is as close to DAoC 2 as we are gonna get from Mythic. :(

  Painlezz

Novice Member

Joined: 5/30/11
Posts: 628

12/27/12 10:44:00 AM#24

Just FYI:   Every "failed" mmo of late has done better than DAOC did...

I loved DAOC like many of you did, but it did not have nearly the subs that games these days are getting.

 

Even if they made DAOC 2 perfectly, it likely wouldn't get 10 million active subs and would be considered a failure just like all other games are.  WoW pretty much set the bar way too high and no one will likely ever reach it again.

  Roguewiz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/01/02
Posts: 569

When a Kender says "oops!"; its already too late.

12/27/12 10:52:56 AM#25

10 mil subs is a pipe-dream.  WoW is a fluke of the MMO Industry.  It was released at a time when people were tired of Everquest.  The Warcraft Universe has a huge, rabid, following.  Thus, it took off quickly.  Blizzard did things right in improving existing mechanics from other games, and implemented/copied others.  As well as opening up the game to people that have never played an MMO before.

Using WoW as a baseline on success is a mistake.  The real baseline people should use is this:

  1. Maintain a steady stream of subscriptions and be profitable.  I believe the ideal amount from a news article I read was 1-2 mil, but no lower than 500,000.
  2. Continue releasing content
  3. No massive layoffs in the first 6-12 months of the game.
 

Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Hearthstone, League of Legends, World of Warcraft, Destiny (XBOX ONE)
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next, Everquest Next Landmark, Warhammer 40K

The secret to making a great game: Don't cater to the masses!

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

12/27/12 10:56:52 AM#26
Originally posted by Izik

Just my personal opinion, and it might not be realistic, but:

DAOC 2 would save the MMO industry.

The original is/was quite literally one of the greatest video games of all time. The successor of the game (if done right) would be a resounding sucess. So hell yes, OP.

You're assuming the new game would be anything like the original.  Look at Guild Wars 2.  It's a hollow husk of a game with no soul or charm, compared to the original.  

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Ghavrigg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 730

12/27/12 10:57:28 AM#27
Originally posted by Painlezz

Just FYI:   Every "failed" mmo of late has done better than DAOC did...

I loved DAOC like many of you did, but it did not have nearly the subs that games these days are getting.

 

Even if they made DAOC 2 perfectly, it likely wouldn't get 10 million active subs and would be considered a failure just like all other games are.  WoW pretty much set the bar way too high and no one will likely ever reach it again.

Dude, a game isn't considered a failure for not getting 10 million subs. Even 500k subs can bring in a decent profit on many MMO's if they can sustain it. 1 million subscribers and you're sitting pretty. It may be a failure as a "WoW Killer", or a disappointment in terms of projected subs, but that doesn't mean it failed outright.

If it gets shut down entirely, that means they were losing money and then it can be a failure, except to the few who loved it while it was up.

  Sideras

Novice Member

Joined: 2/13/04
Posts: 236

12/27/12 10:59:37 AM#28

You do realize that the IP is now owned by EA, right? Meaning whatever hopes you might have about that game is pretty much dead. First and foremost they probably don't even realize the game would have any potential and secondly they would fuck it up anyways. Same goes for anyone hoping for a new Ultima game.

  PsiKahn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 124

12/27/12 11:12:33 AM#29
Originally posted by Aviggin
Originally posted by Painlezz

Just FYI:   Every "failed" mmo of late has done better than DAOC did...

I loved DAOC like many of you did, but it did not have nearly the subs that games these days are getting.

 

Even if they made DAOC 2 perfectly, it likely wouldn't get 10 million active subs and would be considered a failure just like all other games are.  WoW pretty much set the bar way too high and no one will likely ever reach it again.

Dude, a game isn't considered a failure for not getting 10 million subs. Even 500k subs can bring in a decent profit on many MMO's if they can sustain it. 1 million subscribers and you're sitting pretty. It may be a failure as a "WoW Killer", or a disappointment in terms of projected subs, but that doesn't mean it failed outright.

If it gets shut down entirely, that means they were losing money and then it can be a failure, except to the few who loved it while it was up.

A game isn't necessarily a failure for not getting millions of subs... but it is if you're EA.  They aim big.  An independent developer would gladly take a few hundred thousand subs for an appropriately budgeted game.  But EA would sooner dedicate resources to "the next big thing."  And I don't say that to hate on EA, it's just the way large corporations are designed to work.

  Ghavrigg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 730

12/27/12 11:19:30 AM#30
Originally posted by PsiKahn
Originally posted by Aviggin
Originally posted by Painlezz

Just FYI:   Every "failed" mmo of late has done better than DAOC did...

I loved DAOC like many of you did, but it did not have nearly the subs that games these days are getting.

 

Even if they made DAOC 2 perfectly, it likely wouldn't get 10 million active subs and would be considered a failure just like all other games are.  WoW pretty much set the bar way too high and no one will likely ever reach it again.

Dude, a game isn't considered a failure for not getting 10 million subs. Even 500k subs can bring in a decent profit on many MMO's if they can sustain it. 1 million subscribers and you're sitting pretty. It may be a failure as a "WoW Killer", or a disappointment in terms of projected subs, but that doesn't mean it failed outright.

If it gets shut down entirely, that means they were losing money and then it can be a failure, except to the few who loved it while it was up.

A game isn't necessarily a failure for not getting millions of subs... but it is if you're EA.  They aim big.  An independent developer would gladly take a few hundred thousand subs for an appropriately budgeted game.  But EA would sooner dedicate resources to "the next big thing."  And I don't say that to hate on EA, it's just the way large corporations are designed to work.

Okay, yeah, true, in EA's case it would be considered a failure. Oh well.

  Greyface

Novice Member

Joined: 5/23/04
Posts: 388

12/27/12 12:00:54 PM#31
Originally posted by Sideras

You do realize that the IP is now owned by EA, right? Meaning whatever hopes you might have about that game is pretty much dead. First and foremost they probably don't even realize the game would have any potential and secondly they would fuck it up anyways. Same goes for anyone hoping for a new Ultima game.

100% true. Sigh.

EA can't figure out MMOs.  Even when they hire/buy experienced developers, their games are invariably stillborn.  I have to assume that there's something in their corporate culture that's incompatable with the genre.

They also like to crap on their classic IPs.  If you loved DAoC, hope that EA forgets about it.

By way of illustration, please induldge me in a little gaming-related anecdote:  The Ultima series was my first (CRPG) love.  I couldn't tell you how many hours of my childhood I spent on my IBM PC Jr. searching for mantras and runes.  I played through all nine games and most of the spinoffs.  My first MMO was UO, which I played for over four years -- longer than most people spend in college.   I even met my wife there.  The series is important to me.

A new single-player Ultima, with the right care and attention, could be the next Skyrim.  Instead, we got "Lords of Ultima," the bastard offspring of Farmville and Evony.  If the stars align, fans of the series might also get a flash-based, microtransaction-driven Diablo clone someday.  Whenever I stop to think about what EA has done to this series, I feel like I just ran into my high school sweetheart working as a lot lizard.

 

  Ice-Queen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2445

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

12/27/12 12:14:24 PM#32

I have fond memories of DAOC Pre-TOA.. I just don't think with the devs we have today with game companies, that we could get a good quality DAOC 2. Devs today are just too lazy and not innovative, they'd rather copy and paste WoW and put a new skin on it, instead.

Years ago, with mmorpgs, it was all about making a good quality game your fans will love to play. Today, it's about how to make money fast, put up microtransactions shops, and let the game coast, milk it til it's dead, rinse and repeat.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  Larsa

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/04
Posts: 992

12/27/12 12:34:01 PM#33
Originally posted by Tayah

I have fond memories of DAOC Pre-TOA.. I just don't think with the devs we have today with game companies, that we could get a good quality DAOC 2. ...

I have fond memories of DAOC Pre-ToA as well. However, I just don't think that with the players we have today, that we could get a good quality DAoC 2.

You see what I did there. :)

Really, I believe the DAoC mechanics would make it a niche game today. Nothing wrong with that, I would play it - I play niche games anyway. But the millions of people that buy WoW expansions, SWToR and GW2 don't - they would scream about game mechanics like in the original Pre-ToA DAoC.

I can already see how they would complain about not being able to solo even the mid-level content, about that they went into a dungeon and found another group there that had just killed the boss or that they went into the frontier and were steamrolled by an army on their way to a keep. And then even raiding a keep just because it's ours, you know, so with no rewards at all. I can already see the forum threads: "I took part raiding keep XYZ today, it tooks us 3 hours and I got killed twice and had to run back for half an hour and what did I get for all that? Nothing! That is lame, that game sucks!"

 

 

I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2832

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/27/12 1:09:29 PM#34
Originally posted by Raventree

I was just wandering around Facebook in boredom and I happened upon someone I used to hang out with a few years back.  I saw that he had a picture of his character on DAoC to one side and my character was front and center.  WOW, that brought back some memories! 

I remember 3-faction RVR, everyone trying to get control of Darkness Falls so they could exterminate the other two factions and then farm the place, and epic seige-style battles when we knew we were losing the keep but we would take as many as we could with us before we died.  And what other game has so many reactive and complex combat combos anymore?  God, those were some fun times.

Unfortunately, the game isn't the same as it was back in the day.  There is just no way to go back and relive those great memories.... unless they finally made DAoC 2.  Who's balls do we have to twist to get updated graphics, a new UI, and some player-suggested tweaks to bring the game up to date?  (Casters that can still cast in combat for one thing.)

LONG LIVE HIBERNIA!  Hell, long live Albion and Midgard as well.  I loved to hate them.

Edit:  I also think DAoC was one of the few MMOs that got the PVP right.  You quested in your home zones and went to the frontier to PVP or quest with high danger and high reward.  No getting ganked while you quest unless you chose to risk it.

Might want to give The Elder Scrolls Online a glance.  It is being headed by Matt Firor (the genius behind DAoC's  RvR) and is set in Elder Scrolls Universe.  It features 3 faction RvR.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Smoey

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/05
Posts: 563

12/27/12 1:17:20 PM#35

I'd happily pay £30/month if it were made right.

 

Hibernia <3

(\ /) ?
( . .)
c('')('')

  chriswsm

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 388

Never make anything idiot proof as someone will make a better idiot.

12/28/12 12:49:58 PM#36
Originally posted by Arglebargle

Elder Scrolls Online is likely the closest you are going to get any time soon.

 

But, like you said, "There is just no way to go back and relive those great memories...."

Indeed as many of the DAOC dev crew are involved with Zenimax and the three realm PVP is DAOC inspired without a doubt.

 

I loved DAOC back in the day and I am a Scrolls fan too so I have high hopes and a few concerns.  Fingers crossed that my Khajiit can take down an Argonian.

I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.

Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW

  NegativeJoe

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 175

sorry if it hurts

12/28/12 6:20:05 PM#37


Originally posted by Greyface

Originally posted by Sideras You do realize that the IP is now owned by EA, right? Meaning whatever hopes you might have about that game is pretty much dead. First and foremost they probably don't even realize the game would have any potential and secondly they would fuck it up anyways. Same goes for anyone hoping for a new Ultima game.
100% true. Sigh.

EA can't figure out MMOs.  Even when they hire/buy experienced developers, their games are invariably stillborn.  I have to assume that there's something in their corporate culture that's incompatable with the genre.

They also like to crap on their classic IPs.  If you loved DAoC, hope that EA forgets about it.

By way of illustration, please induldge me in a little gaming-related anecdote:  The Ultima series was my first (CRPG) love.  I couldn't tell you how many hours of my childhood I spent on my IBM PC Jr. searching for mantras and runes.  I played through all nine games and most of the spinoffs.  My first MMO was UO, which I played for over four years -- longer than most people spend in college.   I even met my wife there.  The series is important to me.

A new single-player Ultima, with the right care and attention, could be the next Skyrim.  Instead, we got "Lords of Ultima," the bastard offspring of Farmville and Evony.  If the stars align, fans of the series might also get a flash-based, microtransaction-driven Diablo clone someday.  Whenever I stop to think about what EA has done to this series, I feel like I just ran into my high school sweetheart working as a lot lizard.

 



I'm not sure it is 100% true. Sure if MJ and company make a game called 'dark age of camelot 2' they could probably be sued, but I don't think EA in any way owns the rights to the historical/mythological/fictional places and names.

Seems it would be pretty easy to make a game in a very similar world, with the same realm names etc, without any legal problems. Hibernia wasn't a name invented for a game, it's a classical Latin name for Ireland. Albion, the oldest known name of Great Britian. The places in the game are real places for the most part, or at the very least prt of very old mythology. EA doesn't own that.

The Secret World doesn't own the 'IP of the world' just because they use real world places.

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  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

12/28/12 6:28:06 PM#38
No, you can't go home again. I mean listen to the limitations being put in place in this thread. I loved x pre y! Do you ever stop to think why those changes were made?

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  OgreRaper

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/11
Posts: 381

12/28/12 6:31:05 PM#39

For those that aren't aware, Mark Jacobs (creator of DAOC) new game studio recently released a teaser:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/23/mark-jacobs-city-state-entertainment-releases-some-sort-of-teas

 

Something is brewing. Is it MJ's attempt at DAOC 2? I'm really hoping. Been some great discussion in that post ^ and Mark Jacobs himself has answered a bunch of questions.

 

 

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