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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Massively shows some honesty

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235 posts found
  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1882

12/21/12 9:52:12 PM#141
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by grimal

What??? DnD?  The trinity was created by the modern MMO.  There was no trinity in DnD.

 Are you freaking serious....The first MMORPG with Graphics was NeverWinter Nights Online back in 1991, it had the holy trinity which Meridian 59 used in 1996 and EverQuest which is D&D with another name...wowzers.

Original D&D Black Box had 3 classes. Cleric (Healer), Fighter (tank), Mage(DPS).

It wasnt until Greyhawk was released that other classes started

to appear, Greyhawk brought the Theif (another DPS) and the Paladin (tank/healer). it wasnt until the player handbook came out that the first non-trinity class was created...the BARD.

Everything else all falls into the trinity catagory BECAUSE they are taken from D&D.

/fighter/berserker/avenger/barbarian = dps

paladin = tank/healer

warrior/warlord/ardent = tank/dps

Warden/batlemaid/swordmage = tank

ranger/scout = dps

theif/rogue = dps

wizard/mage/elementalist/necro/warlock = dps

cleric/priest = healer

Druid/shaman/monk = healer/dps

Wow.  Ok, first off, DPS stands for damage per second.  Combat in DnD was never based on real time.  There were turns or rounds, so how could it have been Damage Per Second?  It couldn't have been!

The Trinity was developed back with the first gen of MMOs (EQ 1).  Made up of the Tank, Healer and DPS.  DnD never had such a term for this combat style because it didn't come into play until the MMO!!

True each class was based off an archetype, healer, warrior, etc, but the actual term trinity as we use it now was coined by and for the MMO genre.

Please, show me anywhere in any of the pre-MMO genre DnD books where it specifically states the trinity.  You'd be hard pressed.

The only trinity you will possibly find mentioned is that of the three core books: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and the Monster Manual...but those referred to the three books, not the Tank/DPS/Healer trinity you are talking about.

Second, EQ 1 may be a fantasy based online RPG but it is not Dungeons and Dragons. 

I can't believe I am actually needing to post this. Did you even play Dungeons and Dragons PNP?

No, tabletop definitely had the trinity.  Wizards / Sorcerors were the damage classes.  Fighters / Paladins / Rangers were the meat shields and protectors of the mages, always putting themselves between the opponent and the mage.  Clerics / Druids were the hybrids who both kicked ass and saved the group's bacon with well placed heals.  Thieves were the melee damage class and trap experts.  I never played a campaign that didn't have at least three of the above archetypes as campaigns couldn't be completed without them.

 

They may not have been labeled as the trinity at the time, but that is exactly what they were.  Doesn't matter if combat is real time, turn based or some mix of the two, the point is that you had to have classes that healed, classes that tanked and protected and classes that dealt real damage in order to be successful in campaigns.

  Eir_S

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4670

GW2 socialist.

12/22/12 4:47:34 AM#142
Originally posted by SuprGamerX
Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

Really? They bash the game so hard , but hey, let's give it "Game of the Year" because quite frankly what else is there? Goes to show how pathetic 2012 was in the MMO world.   Seriously , if we compare 2012's releases to GW2 , then yeah GW2 is a pretty freaking amazing game. Compare GW2 to releases since 2008 , it barely makes the top 20.  All in all , one game has to win GOTY , so it's a toss up.

This argument needs to put out of its misery, honestly.  There were more triple A games and expansions released in 2012 than in any recent year.  I'd love for you to name 20 games that released since 2008 that were better than GW2.

Aion?  WAR?  AoC?  Vindictus?  FFXIV?  How about Runes of Magic?

Good luck.

 

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3463

12/22/12 5:27:45 AM#143
Originally posted by Eir_S
 

This argument needs to put out of its misery, honestly.  There were more triple A games and expansions released in 2012 than in any recent year.  I'd love for you to name 20 games that released since 2008 that were better than GW2.

Aion?  WAR?  AoC?  Vindictus?  FFXIV?  How about Runes of Magic?

Good luck.

 

We counting non-MMOs or just MMOs?

Non-MMOs will include some really outstanding games like Skyrim, Portal2, Bioshock, Dead Space, The Walking Dead, Red Dead Redemption etc.

Course all games are subjective so if you think that way, be my guess.

I'd say it is not even in the top 50 from 2008 for myself.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Zalmon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 323

12/22/12 5:33:59 AM#144
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by SuprGamerX
Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

Really? They bash the game so hard , but hey, let's give it "Game of the Year" because quite frankly what else is there? Goes to show how pathetic 2012 was in the MMO world.   Seriously , if we compare 2012's releases to GW2 , then yeah GW2 is a pretty freaking amazing game. Compare GW2 to releases since 2008 , it barely makes the top 20.  All in all , one game has to win GOTY , so it's a toss up.

This argument needs to put out of its misery, honestly.  There were more triple A games and expansions released in 2012 than in any recent year.  I'd love for you to name 20 games that released since 2008 that were better than GW2.

Aion?  WAR?  AoC?  Vindictus?  FFXIV?  How about Runes of Magic?

Good luck.

 

So you want to waste another page or two arguing about something as subjective as 'better'. Or you really need rewards from various websites as a stamp of approval to consider a game 'better'?

SWTOR won lots of awards too. It really means nothing. Just how not every movie that wins 'best picture award' at Oscars is actually the 'best' movie.

  winter

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2220

12/22/12 6:01:21 AM#145
Originally posted by Volkon

Meh... it's opinions, and opinions I disagree with. The fact that he's worrying about how clear roles are being defined shows he's still thinking in a more archaic "roles" mindset from too much trinity training in earlier games. 

 

It's an interesting opinion piece, nothing more.

 So you disagree with him that its a good game that he recomends that almost everyone should try?

Seems that you are making broad sweeping coverall statements because you didn't read the entire article, or simly can't stant anything less then the games totall perfection review?

  Bad.dog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 896

12/22/12 7:58:28 AM#146
Originally posted by winter
Originally posted by Volkon

Meh... it's opinions, and opinions I disagree with. The fact that he's worrying about how clear roles are being defined shows he's still thinking in a more archaic "roles" mindset from too much trinity training in earlier games. 

 

It's an interesting opinion piece, nothing more.

 So you disagree with him that its a good game that he recomends that almost everyone should try?

Seems that you are making broad sweeping coverall statements because you didn't read the entire article, or simly can't stant anything less then the games totall perfection review?

Seems to me you are grasping at best ..pretty hard to spin what Volkon said into a forum war ...unless you are just setting the bait ?

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2549

12/22/12 7:58:36 AM#147
Exactly awards did SWTOR win? Gamespy MMO of the year? Did SWTOR win any non MMO award

GW2 received more awards.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 1835

12/22/12 8:04:23 AM#148
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by grimal

What??? DnD?  The trinity was created by the modern MMO.  There was no trinity in DnD.

 Are you freaking serious....The first MMORPG with Graphics was NeverWinter Nights Online back in 1991, it had the holy trinity which Meridian 59 used in 1996 and EverQuest which is D&D with another name...wowzers.

Original D&D Black Box had 3 classes. Cleric (Healer), Fighter (tank), Mage(DPS).

It wasnt until Greyhawk was released that other classes started

to appear, Greyhawk brought the Theif (another DPS) and the Paladin (tank/healer). it wasnt until the player handbook came out that the first non-trinity class was created...the BARD.

Everything else all falls into the trinity catagory BECAUSE they are taken from D&D.

/fighter/berserker/avenger/barbarian = dps

paladin = tank/healer

warrior/warlord/ardent = tank/dps

Warden/batlemaid/swordmage = tank

ranger/scout = dps

theif/rogue = dps

wizard/mage/elementalist/necro/warlock = dps

cleric/priest = healer

Druid/shaman/monk = healer/dps

Wow.  Ok, first off, DPS stands for damage per second.  Combat in DnD was never based on real time.  There were turns or rounds, so how could it have been Damage Per Second?  It couldn't have been!

The Trinity was developed back with the first gen of MMOs (EQ 1).  Made up of the Tank, Healer and DPS.  DnD never had such a term for this combat style because it didn't come into play until the MMO!!

True each class was based off an archetype, healer, warrior, etc, but the actual term trinity as we use it now was coined by and for the MMO genre.

Please, show me anywhere in any of the pre-MMO genre DnD books where it specifically states the trinity.  You'd be hard pressed.

The only trinity you will possibly find mentioned is that of the three core books: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and the Monster Manual...but those referred to the three books, not the Tank/DPS/Healer trinity you are talking about.

Second, EQ 1 may be a fantasy based online RPG but it is not Dungeons and Dragons. 

I can't believe I am actually needing to post this. Did you even play Dungeons and Dragons PNP?

No, tabletop definitely had the trinity.  Wizards / Sorcerors were the damage classes.  Fighters / Paladins / Rangers were the meat shields and protectors of the mages, always putting themselves between the opponent and the mage.  Clerics / Druids were the hybrids who both kicked ass and saved the group's bacon with well placed heals.  Thieves were the melee damage class and trap experts.  I never played a campaign that didn't have at least three of the above archetypes as campaigns couldn't be completed without them.

 

They may not have been labeled as the trinity at the time, but that is exactly what they were.  Doesn't matter if combat is real time, turn based or some mix of the two, the point is that you had to have classes that healed, classes that tanked and protected and classes that dealt real damage in order to be successful in campaigns.

I won't argue that you could play it like that now if you wanted but the trinity refers to the mechanic in MMOs.  Again, please show me where it is specifically referred to as "Tank/DPS/Healer" trinity in those books.  You can't because the label was created for MMOs.  There was no taunt mechanism, either.

Edit: By saying the trinity existed with old pen n paper RPGs of the 70s-80s, you are projecting a 1999 mechanic onto something that predates the very definition of it.  If Everquest and the modern MMO never existed, there would be no "trinity" as we know it.  You can't go back and attribute it to something that was around 30 or more years before it.  You can argue there were elements or roles that beared resemblance to it, and perhaps lent itself to the creation of it some time after but thats about as far as you can go.

 

 

Release a game with a very large established fanbase from 10+ years of bnet history when the market was still emerging and the casual base had not yet been established, thus ripe for harvesting a momentious self perpetuating playerbase people never leave because they have X hours invested in their characters, and their friends and everyone else plays anyway. Not discounting Blizzard quality... but WoW's success is as much about perfect timing as it is quality, if not more so. - Derros

  dopplemmo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/07
Posts: 31

12/22/12 8:14:12 AM#149
There was no taunt mechanism, either.

 

 

This. Trinity as people refer it nowadays is basically: Tank manages aggro, DPS deal damage, Healer keeps everyone alive. I have never seen characters systematically doing aggro management in the pen and paper games I played, because that notion was pretty much non existent.
  bladedancer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/09/05
Posts: 35

12/22/12 9:47:49 AM#150

Funny how "hating" on a game makes some people think they're the "cool kids". And for just having something positive to say about a game automatically makes them a fanboi...very weird...

As for the topic at hand, it is interesting to see this kind of article on a major MMO, fresh even.

I own Guild Wars 2 but don't really play it anymore, I think it's an alright game, not bad, but not great either, I;ll most likely play it from time to time when not investing much time in other games.

Peter Griffin: you know those germans, if you dont join the party, they´ll come get ya

  Rayshe

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1294

12/22/12 9:56:01 AM#151

Lets face it, there are alot of GW2 Players (being respectful here) that cannot stand to have anything bad said about their game. Hell ive been attacked and i defend it as much as condemn it. GW2 is a good game if you want something from the genre that is Simplified to the highest degree possible. This is the main reason i dont play it, Its reletively boring to me. However i play TSW, a game which is become more complicated as it progresses. For this reason i am enjoying it more than ever.

 

If you want Simplicity in a game then GW2 is great for you.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

12/22/12 9:57:43 AM#152
Originally posted by grimal
 

I won't argue that you could play it like that now if you wanted but the trinity refers to the mechanic in MMOs.  Again, please show me where it is specifically referred to as "Tank/DPS/Healer" trinity in those books.  You can't because the label was created for MMOs.  There was no taunt mechanism, either.

Edit: By saying the trinity existed with old pen n paper RPGs of the 70s-80s, you are projecting a 1999 mechanic onto something that predates the very definition of it.  If Everquest and the modern MMO never existed, there would be no "trinity" as we know it.  You can't go back and attribute it to something that was around 30 or more years before it.  You can argue there were elements or roles that beared resemblance to it, and perhaps lent itself to the creation of it some time after but thats about as far as you can go.

 

 

 Have to agree with Grimal on this one. Never once while playing D&D (I was in the Navy... not a lot to do at night when on a carrier at sea...) did anyone take roles like that. No one ever taunted the boss, no one was a pure healer, etc. It was actually a lot closer to GW2 than WoW.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

12/22/12 10:01:22 AM#153
Originally posted by Rayshe

Lets face it, there are alot of GW2 Players (being respectful here) that cannot stand to have anything bad said about their game. Hell ive been attacked and i defend it as much as condemn it. GW2 is a good game if you want something from the genre that is Simplified to the highest degree possible. This is the main reason i dont play it, Its reletively boring to me. However i play TSW, a game which is become more complicated as it progresses. For this reason i am enjoying it more than ever.

 

If you want Simplicity in a game then GW2 is great for you.

 I don't mind if something negative is said, so long as it's true. It's the blatant lies that ruffle my feathers some.

 

You talk here about simple and complicated. It's all perspective and what you're used to. Eve Online is a simple game... if you've been playing it for years and everything is second nature to you. GW2 is complicated in the combat if you dive into the intricacies with traits, synergies and all that... but once you grasp it it does become simple to you. That's true of every game, even TSW. It'll become old hat, second nature, etc. and by default simple.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Rayshe

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1294

12/22/12 10:05:58 AM#154
I found there was very little to understand for GW2, the Synergies slapped you in the face for what you should go for. I'm not saying its bad, Im just saying its simpler than others. Some people want that others dont.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2549

12/22/12 12:44:48 PM#155
Originally posted by Rayshe
I found there was very little to understand for GW2, the Synergies slapped you in the face for what you should go for. I'm not saying its bad, Im just saying its simpler than others. Some people want that others dont.

There is 2 ways of doing it.

One is focusing on having players plow through good builds and bad builds.

The other is having players focus on using their build properly.

 

Still I pretty much doubt you have figured the best traits to use for each GW2 build, the best glyphs, the best runes, the best consumables to be using for each build.

 

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2799

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

12/22/12 12:55:01 PM#156

*Spits out coffee he was drinking* Woah, a bigger site actually admits that GW2 has flaws? Whew! Thats a nice shocker. Putting asside my partial bias against the game (Fanbois... seriously they make me hate this even more then I really do) I do find it astonishing how many people seem to so blindly consider it the holy graal, most seeming to take notes from the devs on trivial stuff they release that just makes me laugh. (Seriously I can't get over the article people used to defend "GW2 has stuff to do" its hilarious how people can throw out that stuff THAT EVERY OTHER MMO HAS OUT THERE) Overall, its good to not see fanboi ranting on a big site about a game that doesn't deserved being praised as being perfect because its far from it.

 

I'm just surprised nothing about combat was mentioned. Might just be me (doubt it) but it just feels so clunky and I don't feel much control for my character at all. I still feel they were going for the traditional MMo style but then decided mid design process to make it 'aiming' in a way but never finished it, leaving it quite a mess in how it controls. Just feels so icky to me. The simplicity of the combat would just be a personal gripe for someone who likes some challenge to play, so I guess really its silly for me to include that as a flaw. :)

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3082

I am more than some of my parts

12/22/12 1:18:39 PM#157
Originally posted by Purutzil

*Spits out coffee he was drinking* Woah, a bigger site actually admits that GW2 has flaws? Whew! Thats a nice shocker. Putting asside my partial bias against the game (Fanbois... seriously they make me hate this even more then I really do) I do find it astonishing how many people seem to so blindly consider it the holy graal, most seeming to take notes from the devs on trivial stuff they release that just makes me laugh. (Seriously I can't get over the article people used to defend "GW2 has stuff to do" its hilarious how people can throw out that stuff THAT EVERY OTHER MMO HAS OUT THERE) Overall, its good to not see fanboi ranting on a big site about a game that doesn't deserved being praised as being perfect because its far from it.

 

I'm just surprised nothing about combat was mentioned. Might just be me (doubt it) but it just feels so clunky and I don't feel much control for my character at all. I still feel they were going for the traditional MMo style but then decided mid design process to make it 'aiming' in a way but never finished it, leaving it quite a mess in how it controls. Just feels so icky to me. The simplicity of the combat would just be a personal gripe for someone who likes some challenge to play, so I guess really its silly for me to include that as a flaw. :)

I wonder what the world would be like if certain people didn't waste their energies on things they dislike?

 

EDIT: Of course, some people might have difficulty understanding that concept. Those types of people are probably best ignored.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

  KingJiggly

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/11
Posts: 807

Definition for innovation is below. Your welcome.

12/22/12 1:20:36 PM#158
Okay, calm down yall before I close this thread down. 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation

  pedrostrik

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 400

12/22/12 1:21:27 PM#159

Originally posted by BadSpock-->>Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness 

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear - Roles are very clear for people who play with group organization

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements - holy xit who wants those !? awful old quests again after played GW2 DE's, still they are far from perfection

-Area flow is problematic - i agree with this

-Crafting is a freaking mess -  not perfect but better and wise than almost crap mmo's out there

-The story is weak - yes its true GW1 had better story and left a nice Lore unexploreded in GW2

Massively hits on 2/5 nothing special about it, games its far from perfect but far better than almost all crappy old style mmo's out there, but if people are not happy at all at least change it for a beautiful game such as Age of Wushu - that´s a game with real innovations and World PvP with consequences

  Scarfe

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/12
Posts: 287

12/22/12 1:22:28 PM#160
Originally posted by KingJiggly
Okay, calm down yall before I close this thread down. 

haha, you just popped a forgetten thread back to the top, thats like a bouncer slapping you in the face when you've drunk too much. 

But GW2, not bad but insanely overrated. 

currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

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