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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » How the Developers are out of touch.....

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124 posts found
  MyTabbycat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 302

12/21/12 11:49:00 AM#61
Originally posted by Lucioon

Elder Scrolls = Freedom to choose your path

There are still people who haven't gone through the main plot of Skyrim, they are spending their times killing dragons, exploring each inch of the maps, and finding caves. There are mods out there that eliminated the Compass, where people just explore randomly.

When you lock your characters in Factions and Races then Class, you are no longer playing an Elder Scrolls, you are playing an Regular RPG.

Is that bad? Not if you are looking for an RPG that everyone else is creating.

But don't try to say its an Elder Scrolls. Sure, it might be hard putting Online Mode into an Game where you are the focus, then trying to make the Game world where everyone is the focus. But isn't that the Jobs of the Developers to figure a way to make everyone important.

If I remember correctly, before Morrowind and Skyrim, your character was just a regular person whom was in the wrong place at the right time, helping people because you needed something from them. It was more of an This for That exchange with NPC. You weren't the super Hero that everyone worships.

Why can't Elder Scrolls Online do that, Give us the World, an Elder Scrolls World. Instead of an Normal Everyday MMORPG world, where if I just change the name to RPG World online, it would still work.

I'm one of those who will never finish the main quest because I get side tracked by shinies. I never finished Morrowind or Oblivion for the same reason.

As for the faction locking, there is a reason behind it that does make sense. Sure, we don't like it because it's TES and we expect to be able to explore everythng we can. But as someone pointed out somewhere else, even in the stand alone games, with the exception of Arena, we were only given one map to explore (not including any expansions).

  Trionicus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 488

12/21/12 12:09:02 PM#62
Originally posted by Jyiiga
Originally posted by deakon
Originally posted by Jyiiga

Yeah I agree with several others here. I get a GW2 vibe from a lot of what they say. I really do not get a Elder Scrolls vibe from anything beyond the setting of the game.

Most of the things that draw me to Elder Scrolls games and suck up hundreds of my hours.. Do not appear to exist in this title. 

When you start mashing in things like class based gameplay, group oriented dungeons, pvp areas... None of that is ES at all and all of it has already been done many times. 

So an elder scrolls mmo should have no pvp or group content then? Wouldnt that just be TES:VI then tho?

After watching that 10 minute trailer that put out for the game I was literally laughing in my chair. Watching scenes where it was taking 5+ people to take down things like a Flame Atronach was just plain silly to me. Dungeons from all the other ES titles were a very special experience.. Creeping through them slowly, watching for traps, stealth takedowns, epic battles against superior odds. Then you watch that video and see people bunny hopping about.. Nothing during those 10 minutes of footage made it look different over anything else we have. It looked just like a WOW/SWTOR dungeon zerg. 

 

If what they have shown us so far.... Is what the game is going to be like.. Its going to be another 2-3 month speed bump title for the majority of the people that play it. 

 

As far as I knew, bethesda had nothing to do with the development of TESO. That ofcourse leads me to think is just a branding scam seeing as how it's been pointed out a bunch of times how the lore has been butchered in order to make race / map locations easier.

 

I wasn't impressed with the gameplay video either and the only thing I hope for at this point is that they don't pull a SWTOR on me I.E. Delay or cancel another single player RPG installment in favor of attempting to get more sales from their online title.

 

That gameplay video was pretty disturbing actually. I felt like I was being scammed when they kept showing the melee characters in the Skyrim horned helmet. I'm looking for a longterm mmo home, this isn't it.

  MyTabbycat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 302

12/21/12 12:22:25 PM#63

Because this confuses people, I'll break it down for you.

ZeniMax Media Inc. - the parent company http://www.zenimax.com/ They own Bethesda Softworks, Bethesda Game Studios and Zenimax Online Studios as well as some others.

Bethesda Softworks - the publisher http://bethsoft.com/

Bethesda Game Studios - the makers of the TES series Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim http://bgs.bethsoft.com/

ZeniMax Online Studios - the makers of The Elder Scrolls Online http://www.zenimaxonline.com/index.html

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1086

12/21/12 12:28:36 PM#64

Pedantic aside.....horned helmets are a fantasy horror.  Historically, horned helmets did not exist (except for certain ritual or display versions), because they will get you killed.  Helmets are supposed to cushion and redirect the blows, not channel the force into your skull!

 

It's an idiot fantasy trope.

 

Sadly, like most large MMOs, it is years between the initial choices on the design and the final release.  ESO was conceived of 3 to 4 years ago, a time when some of their decisions may have seemed more appropos.  

 

I think one of the reasons that it may have gotten more support is due to the transferability of the art assets from single player to MMO and vice versa. 

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1161

12/21/12 12:33:08 PM#65
Originally posted by MyTabbycat
 

As for the faction locking, there is a reason behind it that does make sense. Sure, we don't like it because it's TES and we expect to be able to explore everythng we can. But as someone pointed out somewhere else, even in the stand alone games, with the exception of Arena, we were only given one map to explore (not including any expansions).

Problem is, we still only have 1 map to explore, but parts of it are blocked due to faction. The whole argument about being able to only explore skyrim when playing skyrim etc... is redundent. In skyrim the area of skyrim was the full extent of the map...and you could go anywhere within that fully. InTESO the full extent of the map is not available to your character...you have to have at least 3 characters to explore the extent of the game.

I don't don't mind if they make it next to impossible to explore another factions homeland but I want the FREEDOM to CHOOSE if I go there, not some artificial blocking mechanism. That just isn't a TES game. And I could care less if the argument is "well TESO is an MMO" because the reason we cannot explore the extent of the map on 1 character is due to a design choice, not because it isn't available in the game. These other lands exist, my character knows they exist, but they simply cannot go tehre because there is an invisible wall blocking the way.

It really is, for me the main stumbling point in getting the game. Time will tell if I can accept it, I love playing alts afterall so perhaps it is going to eventually be of with me, but the problem I have currently is that I am FORCED into something that really isn't neccessay and really isn't in the spirit of a TES game. MMO or not they have chosen to put this limitation in, it isn't a case of "not enough time to put these other areas into the game" because they are in the game, we just cannot go there.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

12/21/12 12:41:57 PM#66

OP, I agree for the most part.

To everyone else...

I am a business. My business makes games, but like any business I must make money. So, I am going to make a game, its going to be an MMORPG. I have an idea for my game and I must make my game in a way that is going to appeal to as many people as possible to make sure my chances of making money is high. However I must also be realistic in that it is not possible to make a game that EVERYONE is going to like...so.

I need to break down the playerbase into catagories!

PvPers, RPers, PvEers, Solo players, small group players, Raiders, Hardcore Raiders, Crafters.

Then there are other sub-catagories

Themepark players, open-world players, need your hand held? want little help? daily questers, instance lovers, guide rails, detailed story, no story...this list has a TON more...

As a game maker I "want" to do as much possible to offer things to appeal to everyone above, but if I DO that I wont satisfy ANYONE because there just plain wont be enough content for everyone, the pickings will be slim...so now I have to do something difficult. PICK which if you I find most important and build a game for you, sadly, I AM going to pick what has the MOST player types in it because I need to make MONEY>

So far, everything I just typed should be OBVIOUS to you right? whats the point of my saying all this? Simple.

Once you throw in a known IP like The Elder Scrolls, an IP from a genre that is NOT the same, you throw in a WORLD OF HURT.

Because now you have the fans of that IP that likes a completely different set of game play...so, who are you targetting? Them? Or the players of the new genre(MMO)? Also, if you are NOT targetting the fans of the original IP...why are you using the IP?

So, If you dont target the fans of the IP (single player RPG), your game will be hit with a ton of hate and worse yet, could harm the IP overall because some of those players will buy the game(seeing the name), hate it and may not buy the new game of the original genre. If you DO target them you will fail because you are now trying to make fans of one type of game like another type that is nothing like the original and MMO players will go "WTF is this? This isnt an MMO" (see SWTOR).

There are just too many aspects of the original IP that will be lost in translation. The core of the IP, its freedom, from character aspects to combat, both magic and melee are going to be impossible to do to make both player types happy. Once you start throwing in MMO staples, the original IP became nothing more than names of places, NPCs and monster skins. A game in TES name only.

From a business standpoint, it doesnt make sense. Better off going with an original IP or an IP already in the genre. Sadly, my business is that of a SMALL business, one still connected to REALITY and can see this...corporations however only see numbers on paper, not based in reality and have no clue what consumers really want anymore.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  koboldfodder

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 367

12/21/12 12:43:59 PM#67

Here is how TESO should have been developed.

 

-Make all of Tamriel available for any character to explore.  Whether it is a level based game or a skill based game, this forces you to develop one big area of content instead of having to do three areas of content for every single game update.  In the current setting, if one factioned area has a specific type of content/reward you can bet they will have to copy and paste it to the other two realms.

-Make some areas "buildable" where factions/guilds can create city states and such.

-Dump factions at character creation.  All characters start off as neutral.  There are three factions to join (same ones) but you need to gain faction with them to join (like Rebel or Imp in SWG).

-All PVP happens in the game world, no separate zones no instances.  Just like SWG.  So people who want to PVP will have to join one of three factions.

 

 

 

  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1118

12/21/12 12:52:16 PM#68
Originally posted by koboldfodder

Here is how TESO should have been developed.

 

-Make all of Tamriel available for any character to explore.  Whether it is a level based game or a skill based game, this forces you to develop one big area of content instead of having to do three areas of content for every single game update.  In the current setting, if one factioned area has a specific type of content/reward you can bet they will have to copy and paste it to the other two realms.

-Make some areas "buildable" where factions/guilds can create city states and such.

-Dump factions at character creation.  All characters start off as neutral.  There are three factions to join (same ones) but you need to gain faction with them to join (like Rebel or Imp in SWG).

-All PVP happens in the game world, no separate zones no instances.  Just like SWG.  So people who want to PVP will have to join one of three factions.

 

 

 

"Its Too Hard!" - Matt Firor (of DAoC Fame)

Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1161

12/21/12 1:03:01 PM#69
Originally posted by PyrateLV

 

 

"Its Too Hard!" - Matt Firor (of DAoC Fame)

"I get paid because of my reputation it seems not because I can design something good again".

  ste2000

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 4735

12/21/12 1:04:31 PM#70

I've been saying this for ages.

TES players are MMO players................I started playing MMO because of Morrowind.

Yes they are the same playerbase, the only people who don't know that are  Zenimax  devs (Firor in particular).

What can I say, we are trying to make this guy (Firor) wake up and make and see the light, before he ends up like the Bioware "geniuses" who though they knew all and now are doing gardening as full time job.

 

I keep saying that Morrowind and Skyrim are already an excellent base for a new wave of MMORPG, where the RPG tag actually means something.

It is sad, but I already gave up my hope, I know they gonna pull another SWTOR, they will compromise on everything trying to make everyone (which mean no one) happy.

Personally I am looking forward EQ3..............even SOE understood that the EQ/WOW trend is a thing of the past

 

ESO will probably be the only TES game I won't be buying or playing (I started with Arena in 1999).

Good luck to Zenimax trying to please the "locusts" who burn MMO in 2 months, I won't be there to support them though.

 

  MyTabbycat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 302

12/21/12 1:07:31 PM#71
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by koboldfodder

Here is how TESO should have been developed.

 

-Make all of Tamriel available for any character to explore.  Whether it is a level based game or a skill based game, this forces you to develop one big area of content instead of having to do three areas of content for every single game update.  In the current setting, if one factioned area has a specific type of content/reward you can bet they will have to copy and paste it to the other two realms.

-Make some areas "buildable" where factions/guilds can create city states and such.

-Dump factions at character creation.  All characters start off as neutral.  There are three factions to join (same ones) but you need to gain faction with them to join (like Rebel or Imp in SWG).

-All PVP happens in the game world, no separate zones no instances.  Just like SWG.  So people who want to PVP will have to join one of three factions.

 

 

 

"Its Too Hard!" - Matt Firor (of DAoC Fame)

Would you kindly link the source for that quote? I want to see the context it was used in.

  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1118

12/21/12 1:40:28 PM#72
Originally posted by MyTabbycat
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by koboldfodder

Here is how TESO should have been developed.

 

-Make all of Tamriel available for any character to explore.  Whether it is a level based game or a skill based game, this forces you to develop one big area of content instead of having to do three areas of content for every single game update.  In the current setting, if one factioned area has a specific type of content/reward you can bet they will have to copy and paste it to the other two realms.

-Make some areas "buildable" where factions/guilds can create city states and such.

-Dump factions at character creation.  All characters start off as neutral.  There are three factions to join (same ones) but you need to gain faction with them to join (like Rebel or Imp in SWG).

-All PVP happens in the game world, no separate zones no instances.  Just like SWG.  So people who want to PVP will have to join one of three factions.

 

 

 

"Its Too Hard!" - Matt Firor (of DAoC Fame)

Would you kindly link the source for that quote? I want to see the context it was used in.

It came from an early interview with Massively. Unfortunately it seems to have been deleted.

He was speaking of why Housing will not be implemented in TESO. Here is the exact quote

"Making player housing the way fans expect is too hard to implement in an MMO, so Zenimax has no plans to let you accrue realestate." - Matt Frior

 

 

Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

12/21/12 1:55:13 PM#73
Originally posted by ste2000

I've been saying this for ages.

TES players are MMO players................I started playing MMO because of Morrowind.

Yes they are the same playerbase, the only people who don't know that are  Zenimax  devs (Firor in particular).

 That is an opinion with no basis in reality.

Ultima, many of the single player RPGs sold millions of copies, Ultima Online had around 300,000 players at its most popular point. Proof that most the RPG players DONT play MMOs.

Phantasy Star, single players sold millions of copies, online version never came close. Proof that most RPGers dont play MMOs.

EverQuest came close to a million players, the single player console versions bombed. Proof that MMOers dont care about single player versions of their games.

KOTOR games, millions sold. SWTOR, millions sold, million+ left it for the PoS it is. Proof the two are NOT compatable.

As for TES...go to ANY of the modding forums and read about how they are laughing at the idea of a TES MMO and that they have no idea few TES players are MMOers. There is ZERO that points to most single player RPG gamers also playing MMORPGs.

More proof MMOs and single players dont mix well? Name an MMO that sold well on a console system...the PC versions always sell far more because most console(single players) dont play MMO games. MOST is not ALL.

 

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1118

12/21/12 2:38:02 PM#74
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by ste2000

I've been saying this for ages.

TES players are MMO players................I started playing MMO because of Morrowind.

Yes they are the same playerbase, the only people who don't know that are  Zenimax  devs (Firor in particular).

 That is an opinion with no basis in reality.

Ultima, many of the single player RPGs sold millions of copies, Ultima Online had around 300,000 players at its most popular point. Proof that most the RPG players DONT play MMOs.

Phantasy Star, single players sold millions of copies, online version never came close. Proof that most RPGers dont play MMOs.

EverQuest came close to a million players, the single player console versions bombed. Proof that MMOers dont care about single player versions of their games.

KOTOR games, millions sold. SWTOR, millions sold, million+ left it for the PoS it is. Proof the two are NOT compatable.

As for TES...go to ANY of the modding forums and read about how they are laughing at the idea of a TES MMO and that they have no idea few TES players are MMOers. There is ZERO that points to most single player RPG gamers also playing MMORPGs.

More proof MMOs and single players dont mix well? Name an MMO that sold well on a console system...the PC versions always sell far more because most console(single players) dont play MMO games. MOST is not ALL.

 

 

You cant use Ultima and UO as an example because that was over 15 years ago before MMOs were mainstream and popular.

 

Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

12/21/12 2:54:52 PM#75
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by ste2000

I've been saying this for ages.

TES players are MMO players................I started playing MMO because of Morrowind.

Yes they are the same playerbase, the only people who don't know that are  Zenimax  devs (Firor in particular).

 That is an opinion with no basis in reality.

Ultima, many of the single player RPGs sold millions of copies, Ultima Online had around 300,000 players at its most popular point. Proof that most the RPG players DONT play MMOs.

Phantasy Star, single players sold millions of copies, online version never came close. Proof that most RPGers dont play MMOs.

EverQuest came close to a million players, the single player console versions bombed. Proof that MMOers dont care about single player versions of their games.

KOTOR games, millions sold. SWTOR, millions sold, million+ left it for the PoS it is. Proof the two are NOT compatable.

As for TES...go to ANY of the modding forums and read about how they are laughing at the idea of a TES MMO and that they have no idea few TES players are MMOers. There is ZERO that points to most single player RPG gamers also playing MMORPGs.

More proof MMOs and single players dont mix well? Name an MMO that sold well on a console system...the PC versions always sell far more because most console(single players) dont play MMO games. MOST is not ALL.

 

 

You cant use Ultima and UO as an example because that was over 15 years ago before MMOs were mainstream and popular.

 

 I can and did. And it would seem by your reply, I do so in a manner to prove its true, by using it FIRST and followed it with examples showing how it did NOT CHANGE WITH TIME...because you chose not to refute the modern examples but instead focused on just the first.

There is NO example that can be given that points to most single player RPGers are also MMORPGers...not one.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5322

12/21/12 3:03:47 PM#76

The entire 'Elder Scroll players are not MMO players' is massively weak and demonstrates either a huge amount of dishonesty or inexperience.

It is possible for those with this opinion to win a debate on this subject using very clever tactics but it doesnt change the fundemental reality that its basically massively silly arguement

Correlation does not imply causation

  MyTabbycat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 302

12/21/12 4:08:49 PM#77
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by MyTabbycat
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by koboldfodder

Here is how TESO should have been developed.

 

-Make all of Tamriel available for any character to explore.  Whether it is a level based game or a skill based game, this forces you to develop one big area of content instead of having to do three areas of content for every single game update.  In the current setting, if one factioned area has a specific type of content/reward you can bet they will have to copy and paste it to the other two realms.

-Make some areas "buildable" where factions/guilds can create city states and such.

-Dump factions at character creation.  All characters start off as neutral.  There are three factions to join (same ones) but you need to gain faction with them to join (like Rebel or Imp in SWG).

-All PVP happens in the game world, no separate zones no instances.  Just like SWG.  So people who want to PVP will have to join one of three factions.

 

 

 

"Its Too Hard!" - Matt Firor (of DAoC Fame)

Would you kindly link the source for that quote? I want to see the context it was used in.

It came from an early interview with Massively. Unfortunately it seems to have been deleted.

He was speaking of why Housing will not be implemented in TESO. Here is the exact quote

"Making player housing the way fans expect is too hard to implement in an MMO, so Zenimax has no plans to let you accrue realestate." - Matt Frior

 

 

Ah  I see. The meaning of a partial quote can be misused when taken out of context. Thanks for the clarification on that one. =)

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

12/21/12 5:17:41 PM#78
Where did i say exclusive to me. I said figure out a way where everyone is important. Thats what elder scroll is isnt it. You as the important character. I will most likely not play this game. Just trying to say that we should not pay to be an guinea pig.

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  Yamota

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6509

"I fight so you don't have to."

12/21/12 5:38:30 PM#79

I think this title will be yet another bloated, dumbed down ThemePark. Like Warhammer players wanted WAR to be Warhammer Online and not WoW Online, Elder Scrolls players want Skyrim Online and not yet another WoW online. Pathetic.

This "Mega Server" nonsense has nothing to do with allowing you to play with your friends and everything to do with them making it easier to accomodate the player base which will drastically drop after the first few months. This way they dont have to merge anything and admit that their game is losing players.

This is what happens when instead of having people who loves games calling the shots instead have people who loves money.

 

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6980

12/21/12 6:15:04 PM#80


Originally posted by Lucioon

I said figure out a way where everyone is important. Thats what elder scroll is isnt it.


Yes, a game how should be according to you.

Your opinions represent you only unless you can provide solid reason that there is some significant amount of people who share same opinion. Until then, you ask the game to be made for you exclusively.


You are not right, you just have an opinion - like everyone else and devs need to consider those too.

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