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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is the new "action oriented" combat the future of the MMORPG genre?

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82 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

12/18/12 5:19:30 PM#61
Originally posted by madazz
Just because an option comes out doesn't mean its the future of anything. 

And it does not mean that it is not the future. We just simply don't know until the market sort it out.

But we can venture guesses of how popular action combat is, can we?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

12/18/12 5:20:21 PM#62
Originally posted by Celusios

In short, I hope they continue to produce more action oriented games. The market doesn't need any of that themepark hold your hand style you all want.

But course, it boils down to whether there are new games in this direction. I see Marvel Heroes as one of these action combat games. Anything else (in the MMO genre)?

  madazz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1312

12/18/12 5:56:04 PM#63
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by madazz
Just because an option comes out doesn't mean its the future of anything. 

And it does not mean that it is not the future. We just simply don't know until the market sort it out.

But we can venture guesses of how popular action combat is, can we?

Absolutely.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

12/18/12 6:29:34 PM#64

Sadly, probably true. No doubt an attempt to attract console gamers to MMOs. I like MMOs where you can talk/joke during most fights.

This is one reason Vanguard suffered. So many buttons to press during combat, that no one talked. Add in the out-of-combat regen and voila; no one talked...ever. Boring. Quit.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  centkin

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/01/10
Posts: 828

12/18/12 6:57:12 PM#65

Open world vindictus would be a good beginning for a game.  I played tera, C9, Dragon's Nest, BUT the best combat was the simplest combat...  Vindictus.  It was all timing and a couple of buttons. 

I also liked Cabal's combat system, at least the combos as opposed to where it ended up. 

---

OTOH I also like strategic combat systems but not 123456789 systems.  I liked the disciple class of vanguard from early beta before they changed it.  It was a flowing combat system that did not rely on mana etc.  You chose the ability you were going to use thinking about what ability you wanted to be able to use three combat ticks down the line. 

The swordmaster in warhammer was interesting that way as well as what you did now could influence what you could do later.  Plus I loved some of the special moves etc.

Before that I liked my shaman from everquest 1.  There were times when I literally saved the party from what would have been a wipe had they had a different shaman.  There were just so many things you could do in a clutch situation.

I think that is the point though -- people want the ability for talent of one sort or another to be able to win over equipment.  Other people at least want the illusion of such. 

  killion81

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 915

 
OP  12/18/12 8:41:47 PM#66
Originally posted by Celusios

This new style of combat is the future I hope. There is no skill whatsoever involved in the combat of the past (such as WoW) in which the game is aiming for you, leaping to people for you, dodging for you, blocking for you, and most importantly you're just spamming abilities hoping to wipe one another out.

Some could argue "well this is just a more skilled clickfest!" however many of the newer titles have downsides to you spamming the keys. For instance a loss of stamina is what I see a lot of new games doing. Stamina also goes into your dodging and etc.

In short, I hope they continue to produce more action oriented games. The market doesn't need any of that themepark hold your hand style you all want.

 

I disagree with this.  There is skill in executing perfect PvE rotations while changing positions throughout a fight.  There is definitely skill in knowing when to counter and pop cooldowns in PvP encounters.  I will agree that there is not the same hand eye coordination required as most console games and FPS games.  However, I also believe that is part of what sets the whole MMORPG genre apart.  

Traditional RPGs gave us turn based combat with simple target selection.  MMORPGs evolved this combat into a 3D space through tab targetting and global cooldowns.  Also, at least half of the results of combat of more traditional RPGs were decided prior to combat even occurring, through specialization and gear.  Essentially the build of your character determines what they are capable of in combat.  Sometimes they run into a hard counter, sometimes they are the hard counter.

There is another genre, the Action RPG genre, that takes the development of RPGs and attaches action oriented gameplay.  ARPGs should certainly evolve into their own MOARPG or MMOARPG genre, but they are a different sort of game designed for a different audience.  

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

12/19/12 12:25:47 AM#67
Originally posted by killion81

There is another genre, the Action RPG genre, that takes the development of RPGs and attaches action oriented gameplay.  ARPGs should certainly evolve into their own MOARPG or MMOARPG genre, but they are a different sort of game designed for a different audience.  

The action RPG genre is already doing that. Diablo 3 has MMO features like persistent characters and auction houses.

Marvel Heroes is calling itself MMO action RPG.

While these are slightly different genre than traditional MMOs, i doubt the audience is very different. There is a large overlap. 1.2M WOW players bought annual pass to get D3. The actual number of overlap players is probabyl much bigger. Everyone in my old WOW guild played D3.

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

12/19/12 3:47:22 PM#68

Was just thinking.... action combat belongs in FPS. In RPGs, character effectiveness is based on character skill and equipment. The player cannot get better results by rolling the dice a certain way.

As tempting as action oriented combat is, I just don't think it fits RPG. Implementing it is an attempt at merging genres. But you will lose more RPG players than you will gain FPS players, I think.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

12/19/12 7:37:33 PM#69
Originally posted by Arclan

Was just thinking.... action combat belongs in FPS. In RPGs, character effectiveness is based on character skill and equipment. The player cannot get better results by rolling the dice a certain way.

As tempting as action oriented combat is, I just don't think it fits RPG. Implementing it is an attempt at merging genres. But you will lose more RPG players than you will gain FPS players, I think.

Obvious not.

Dead Space series has action combat done quite well .. obviously not a FPS. Many action RPG is of 3rd person view, obviously not FPS. There are a tons of action adventures (like Devil May Cry) that action combat is the focus, but obviously not FPS.

And if you think action combat does not fit RPG, why is action RPG like Diablo so popular? In fact, it has its own sub-genre.

  Inf666

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/04
Posts: 509

12/20/12 5:44:30 AM#70

I do understand that you classic MMORPG players want to keep the game mechanics you are used to.

Please understand though that a lot of us would like to play the same MMO games we have played until now (GW2, etc.) but with a different combat model. Yes I am willing to live with the consequences of making a voice tool mandatory. I am also OK with having a smaller population because of the required high player skill factor. I am also willing to die again and again because of my own failings (blocking, dodging, etc.).

But for all that I will get a high satisfaction when I achieve a goal. The direct control of my char gives me a high immersion factor and allows for combos and movement that are not seen in classic MMOs. I simply feel more involved. Being at the top of a PvP / PvE scoreboard will have meaning. Killing a hard PvE boss will have meaning especially if things went wrong during the fight.

A fight where I have time to read guild chat, browse the internet on my second monitor and occasionally press 1/2/3 is not a fight I want to be in. It's boring to the point that I quit that game soon, even if I am in an active guild.

---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3561

12/20/12 8:16:15 AM#71
     I guess it depends on what the people want..  To me action (eye candy) combat is just too arcade for me..  If I want to play games like that, I'd go play my PS3 or go drop quarters at the local arcade..  I like strategic combat myself, which is what we had with EQ moreso then action.. I like people to use the grey matter in the head and less on twitch.. Who do I mez? Who do I kite? Who do I heal? etc etc..  For me eye candy combat just causes more problems with game mechanics then anything.. Group, dungeon and raid size have to sized down, because you can't have 40 people in a local area doing their fansy dansy eye candy moves.. That stresses video cards to much and you end up with lag issues..   I would rather have 40 people in a raid with minimal combat graphics, then 10 people dancing around like some Disney glow show.. LOL
  killion81

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 915

 
OP  12/20/12 8:22:16 AM#72
Originally posted by Inf666

A fight where I have time to read guild chat, browse the internet on my second monitor and occasionally press 1/2/3 is not a fight I want to be in. It's boring to the point that I quit that game soon, even if I am in an active guild.

 

WoW combat could be considered "traditional MMORPG combat".  Yes, there are rotations.  Typing is still generally inefficient, unless you are a REALLY fast typist (it does happen).  I've had my time with WoW and have left without intentions of ever returning, but if you have ever played a WoW raid or arena match, it's hard to say the combat is boring because it's slow.  You may have other reasons for calling it boring, but I don't think it being too slow is a valid one.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

12/20/12 8:27:07 AM#73
As an example, last night me and this TR guy were having this stalingrad (the movie) like stand off in the middle of nowhere for half an hour, during a shot then hiding and moving to new cover, trying not to give away position and stuff. Then later was a massive 3 way fight that was chaos people dieing left right and centre. You just can't replicate that sort of emergent behaviour in combat from old fashioned wow style turn based combat.

All mmos should use 1st or 3rd person real time combat. We have the technology to deliver it now.
  Inf666

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/04
Posts: 509

12/20/12 8:40:47 AM#74
Originally posted by Rydeson
     I guess it depends on what the people want..  To me action (eye candy) combat is just too arcade for me..  If I want to play games like that, I'd go play my PS3 or go drop quarters at the local arcade..  I like strategic combat myself, which is what we had with EQ moreso then action.. I like people to use the grey matter in the head and less on twitch.. Who do I mez? Who do I kite? Who do I heal? etc etc..  For me eye candy combat just causes more problems with game mechanics then anything.. Group, dungeon and raid size have to sized down, because you can't have 40 people in a local area doing their fansy dansy eye candy moves.. That stresses video cards to much and you end up with lag issues..   I would rather have 40 people in a raid with minimal combat graphics, then 10 people dancing around like some Disney glow show.. LOL

Please hava a look at this youtube video of some dark souls pvp matches:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzzWdq8Mslk

Do you consider that to be "arcade action" ? I think it is quite slow and very tactical. Thats the type of combat I would like to see in an MMO. Please do not confuse it with something like this from vindictus:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcSwauNa8aY

I do not want to see high speed no-brainer hack and slash either.

---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

  Tjed

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 161

12/20/12 9:00:04 AM#75

I'm getting tired of twitchy combat.  I prefer the older style of combat.  I like when there are a lot more things going on than just the surface hitting things with weapons and spells.  I like when there is a need for CC.  I like when buffs are very powerful, to the point that there are classes that are centered around bringing buffs to the fight and not much else.  Haste, slow, regen, damage shields, levitate, invis, and much more. 

The key is to have a large variety of diverse classes that overlap these abilities so that a group can achieve these goals in many different ways.  In my opinion that is still related to combat, but a little deeper than killing everything in front of you as fast as possible. 

As always, my view is that there is lots of room for both types of games.  I'm having fun playing GW2 right now, because the combat is so twitchy.  It's cool and it's fun for now, I just don't feel that it is something that I'm going to spend years playing. 

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

12/20/12 9:09:13 AM#76
Originally posted by Rydeson
I would rather have 40 people in a raid with minimal combat graphics, then 10 people dancing around like some Disney glow show.. LOL

 

Somewhat OT with this, but "Disney glow show" hit a point with me.  I know it's all the rage, but I really think some of the combat graphic effects in action combat are to the point of being over done.  I realize this is just personal preference, but some are quite gaudy.

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  Bl4ck3nD

Novice Member

Joined: 4/08/10
Posts: 115

12/20/12 9:35:46 AM#77
This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EduW957BUyY
  loulaki

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/20/11
Posts: 832

12/20/12 6:39:00 PM#78
Originally posted by strangiato2112

I hope not.  I hate it.  

 

Bring back strategic combat.  Sick of GCD clickfests and the new 'action' trend on top of that.

 

 

there are awesome text based RPGs go ahead !

 anyway based on my opinion and taste,

 i want active gameplay and  i want to be a hero cause i am skilfull or cause i grind like an ant and  i am rich, the problem is not the combat which is on the good way (except TESO which dissapointed me on that) but the lore, GW2 is on the good way but it misses the freedom of choices (like Fable series have) or the mature story (like TSW has)

 sadly these steps are from asian devs and not westerns (except Arenanet) ...

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3479

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

12/21/12 5:16:00 AM#79


Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
It seems the more keys there are to press, the better the combat is hailed

Action combat tends to give you fewer keys to press than WoW-style "how do you want to arrange your five hotbars" combat.  It's what you do with those fewer keys that matters.

Sorry, Quiz. I missed this one earlier :)

I realize what you are saying and agree. I was thinking of the "depth of combat" discussion in the GW2 area when I wrote that :) It seemed to focus largely on the number of skills available for combat.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

12/21/12 1:06:12 PM#80
To be fair .. it is just personal preferences. Both will exist in gaming.
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