Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Eladi
If I keep saying that car is going to crash everytime one passes me I will eventualy get right. if a large group of people say it all the time just for the sake of saying it they will get right more often.

Except we've been right almost every time. The only real surprise was how successful Darkfall was.

Heh you might want to wait a few months before making claims like that.  Sounds like the claims that SWTOR was the best mmo ever created the week before it released.

Originally posted by ragz45

Actually this is what IMHO is the root cause of the last 6 years of MMO failings.  MMO's keep trying to pander to multiple niches of gamers.  All the recent studios want to make an MMO that the PvPers, Hardcores, Crafters, Raiders, Casuals, & RPers can all play together and get along well with each other.  This is ultimately the wrong recipe for success.  The reason games like EvE & WoW are so popular is that they both cater to a very niche group of players.  They tell the rest of the gaming population "if you don't like it, there's the door".  (those two niches being the Crafter/entrepreneur & Casuals respectivly)  WoW is quickly bleeding out it's "hardcore raiders", because they are focusing on the casual Niche, which is the larger segment of their gaming population, and they are ok with that.

**Edit** I would have used Darkfall as a good example of another game that caters to a very specific Niche, but I don't know that I can really call it sucessful.

Then maybe they shouldn't try to "pander to multiple niches of gamers"... as I said the mmo genre is not as niche as in the first days.

They both cater to a very niche group of players? Fantasy and Science Fiction / Space settings? Yeah... (or maybe you are refering to their gameplay mechanics / style?), maybe their success has nothing to do with that, or every other "clone" game would have reached similar levels of popularity. 

Originally posted by Starpower
Sounds like you are waking up to the fact you may just have had a too wide definition of a troll/hater expanding the terms to anybody who criticise something you like

 

 

 

Pretty much. Too many people equate "He said something I don't like hearing" with "He said something that means he doesn't like me".

Originally posted by ezpz77

Originally posted by birdycephon

Originally posted by ezpz77

Originally posted by birdycephon

Originally posted by mmoDAD
People aren't going to complain about a great restaurant.

Wrong. Some people will always find something to complain about.

 

There's a big difference between criticism and complaining. The two get mixed up way too often on this site.

Criticism is usually constructive, but in 90% of the posts I see, there is nothing constructive about it.

 

I completely disagree. There's validity in criticism without being constructive. Sometimes I can't offer solutions to the problem because I don't know enough about game design and the internal workings of a particular game to do so, but discussing the problems with others who may know more than me is pretty constructive. Even getting a different point of view can be constructive. The problem with this site is that as soon as problems are pointed out, regardless of validity, there is usually a massive bitchfest calling people a fanboy or a hater. The whole thing devolves into who can prove who wrong instead of discussing the actual problems. That's forum PVP for ya I suppose.

Correctly identifying and analysing a problem is still constructive criticism, even if you're not able to suggest a solution.

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Originally posted by pacov

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Could have saved a lot of time, hype and money on something else.

All you said was a personal opinion that I can't argue over but this... I don't know about you but if you played for 4 months to realize that GW2 is starting to lose players its normal, but how can you say you wasted money on a game you only payed $60 for? I am currently at 500 hours and even if I don't play it as often I still got the most out of my dollar for this game.

I only got a month or two out of it. Got more time out of SWTOR, Skyrim, WoW, EQ2 and such and spent a lot less (sales :P). I got around 120 hours or so, played, for GW2. Which is very little for an MMO. Heck, I played more of GW1 than I did GW2. I liked GW1 a lot more. Of course that is my opinion, but at the 1-2 month mark, toward the end, servers and guilds were dropping like flies. Which is pretty much why I left.

 

I noticed a HUGE drop after they announced the...legendary items or whatever it was.

120 hours for $60 isn't bad value though. That's one thing about buying MMORPGs. The only ones that are a total waste are the ones where you don't get as much entertainment as you'd get from a single player game.

You guys are just expecting too much. A "themepark MMO" with mostly single-player elements should be treated for what it is - a single player game with MMO elements, not the other way around. You're supposed to play it through maybe once or twice and then ditch it.

If the developers keep developing games that don't offer players any tools for generating more content themselves, they will get exactly what they ordered - a very short-lived playerbase.

I hope SOE has _truly_ understood this with their new concept for EQ Next. I'm of course quite skeptical because it's SOE and Smedley, but at least they realized cloning EQx/WoW is not the way to go if they want a game with longevity.

I blame WoW. We all can.

If you get it, you get it. If you don't, you don't.

Originally posted by tom_gore

...

If the developers keep developing games that don't offer players any tools for generating more content themselves, they will get exactly what they ordered - a very short-lived playerbase.

...

This.

Predicting that a MMO will die after three months isn't very hard if you understand the above.

Also no matter how good a game is you will always have haters even if its just for the lulz.

Now and then though you will find really good critisicms which always have a grain of truth. Ignore them to your own peril.

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Originally posted by Inf666

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Originally posted by tom_gore ... If the developers keep developing games that don't offer players any tools for generating more content themselves, they will get exactly what they ordered - a very short-lived playerbase. ...

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This.

Predicting that a MMO will die after three months isn't very hard if you understand the above.

Also no matter how good a game is you will always have haters even if its just for the lulz.

Now and then though you will find really good critisicms which always have a grain of truth. Ignore them to your own peril.

 

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If hating on things was the tool instead of the goal, you would be right. The problem is that hating on things is the end result that they want. Give players tools and haters will simply add some hatred of the tools in with their hatred of the games.

You can tell that hatred is the goal because it's irrational. It's leveled at every game, and none of a game's good points matter. The game is 100% garbage, because of feature X, no matter that features Y and Z are worthwhile.

** edit **
You'll also note a recurring pattern where all of a game's features are hated on. It's not until the posts hit a nerve that the hate posts actually focus on anything in particular. The haters aren't on to anything other than looking for something to hate, and people will just as irrationally defend.

Originally posted by tom_gore

 

If the developers keep developing games that don't offer players any tools for generating more content themselves, they will get exactly what they ordered - a very short-lived playerbase.

 

And the counter example is WOW. How long do people play WOW? No player is allowed to generating more content themselves.

Heck, even D2 lasted for years with zero abilities to generate player content.

I think you are confusing Trolls and Haters with people who want MMORPGs to come back. And I mean by defintion of what they are suppose to be. GW2 and SWTOR are the games that they made but they are not MMOs. We need to stand up for MMORPGs and demand that if they are going to call their game a MMO it meets the standard of a MMO. Also, to be a game they there is a standard that qualifies what a game is. MMORPG will ban me for saying it but look it up you will see these games are no MMOs! Power to the true gamers of the world.

Oh and stop dumbing down asian games for the NA market some of us play at that level.

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Turns out...GW2 has been bleeding out players faster than SWTOR ever did. The server I was on...complete ghost town in about a month or two. The guild of 400 (split in 2 guilds)...completely dead.

 And what server is that because I sure dont see that complaint on the OFFICAL server boards. I know my server is doing great and even there  a few people were saying the server population dropped a LOT yet it didnt, everyone was too busy doing FRACTALS to do the other dungeons or world events.

So, it wasnt a population issue, it was that ArenaNet made one dungeon far better than the others and it became so popular that some thought a lot of people left the game.

lol.

Trolls and haters are just that. They are not on to anything except trolling and hate. They feel that what they want is more important than anything else. They do not listen to reason or reasonable agruments.

There is nothing wrong with the MMO genre, if people were realistic in their expectations. Most people hype things to death which brings a darth of haters and trolls out. Most of these people will never try the games they say they have. Do the games out there have issues - yes they do. Can they be fixed - SURE. ARE THEY AS BAD AS THE HATERS AND TROLLS SAY THEY ARE - NO!

It seems in this society, being contrary gets people noticed. All they are trying to do is get their 15 minutes of fame.

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Originally posted by Starpower
Sounds like you are waking up to the fact you may just have had a too wide definition of a troll/hater expanding the terms to anybody who criticise something you like

 

 

 

yeah this could be. I noticed many fans of the games I listed, if anyone (and I was part of it with SWTOR and GW2) said anything negative...many of us...automatically called them trolls, reported them and they got banned (or warned).

This more than anything. A constructive criticism of a game backed by reasoning, whether you agree or not, is not truly a trolling or hating. I will add that positive praise of a game backed by reasoning , whether you agree or not, also is not truly fanboi-ism.

When you have a post like "this game sucks and if you like it you are a noob" = hating,trolling

Conversely saying "this game is the best ever and if you dont like it you suck" = a fanboy

If you can't add "content" to a reply, maybe you should just reconsider posting in that thread.

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Lets take a look at all the previous MMO releases...starting from the latest.

 

I was a HUGE fan of GW2...thought it was going to be the next big thing. I avoided the GW2 section for the most part, didn't feel bothered enough to argue with people who were "trolls" and "haters".

 

Turns out...GW2 has been bleeding out players faster than SWTOR ever did. The server I was on...complete ghost town in about a month or two. The guild of 400 (split in 2 guilds)...completely dead. The dynamic events near impossible to do, no one chatting except in the major cities. Moved to the next "full" server...completely dead...however, when a major event happens...the activity sky rockets and its as active as it ever was. Between luls, the game is just empty. Turns out the "trolls" "haters" were right.

 

SWTOR...again I was a fan, even more so than GW2. I even got warned a few times and banned arguing with people who I called "trolls" "haters"...and we all know how that game ended up.

Same with Age of Conan. Exept this time I was called a hater and banned a couple times. Turns out, the game after Tortage (like I and many others stated on the forums) sucked. We were called liars, trolls and it was worse than even GW2 at this stage. Banned for saying the game sucked after tortage, for "trolling".

And those are the only MMOs I've been a part of pre-release. So those are the only examples I'll give.

 

In each of those cases...all the trolls and haters get banned (or even perma banned)...but in each of those cases...the majority of these so called "trolls" have been correct. Most of the time I've been wrong, and realized that I should have listened to these haters and trolls and saved my money and time.

 

So...I think in this, we can learn that trolls and haters are actually quite right in a lot of these cases. Yet they get repeatedly banned or their posts deleted. I know when I was a fan of GW2 or SWTOR, I thought those two would never do wrong...well I was wrong. Could have saved a lot of time, hype and money on something else.

People don't get banned for saying a game sucks on here.

Also, its not trolling to say a game sucks. Or are we going to start discussing what a troll is?

Knowing some of the posters here, "trolling" will mean anything that is written on a forum that a person can read HAhAhAhAhA.

With that said, people have been sharing their opinions of these games, but its the HYPE that gets everyone. People come back on here with a bad attitude after being told by people that such and such game is so awesome and innovative. Take GW2. It's run of the mill and the hype was INSANE. Now all is quiet.

What got me the worst was the hype for Kingdoms of Amular. PC Gamer said it was the best RPG of the year and would be for sometime. That game, in my eyes, was pure garbage. I feel they put no heart into making an engaging game.

So yeah, complaining does not equal trolling. And I would say its the average joe who is generally quiet that is right. Hence why these games are on a slow decline (rapid at first). 

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Originally posted by mmoDAD
People aren't going to complain about a great restaurant.

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This is mostly true. A great game will have far more praising it than flaming it. Every MMO launched for years has had a huge batch of folks flaming it and giving reasons.

Everquest, in contrast, had nothing but praise at launch. SWG had nothing but praise at launch. These games changed over time; but at launch everyone loved them.

Originally posted by ragz45

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Eladi
If I keep saying that car is going to crash everytime one passes me I will eventualy get right. if a large group of people say it all the time just for the sake of saying it they will get right more often.

Except we've been right almost every time. The only real surprise was how successful Darkfall was.

Heh you might want to wait a few months before making claims like that.  Sounds like the claims that SWTOR was the best mmo ever created the week before it released.

Except Darkfall is 4 years old and is an established success story already.

Originally posted by mmoDAD
People aren't going to complain about a great restaurant.

This..... There are plenty of games out there that alot of us enjoy I wish gamers would go make there own games if they can do better I wish for once... I know I did and its Not easy at all, its hard work to do what they do, now I do it for a living and dealing with people , and some are never ever happy period.

I bet if I said hey I have 450 millions dollars and told people you can tell me what to make, and I will add it, I bet people would still find something to complain about, people will always find something to whine about.. Gamers buy these games so stop find a new hobby, make your own, i;m confused, do you think companys will change what they make if they are making millions?? No..

I wouldn't either.. and they have been...so people only have themselfs to blame... Stop buying companys will change what they make ... I see niche games, indie games make cool games and most of you dislike that to, so what do you people like nothing..???

I mean cmon I have wrote blogs about this to see what you people want and we never get direct answers from you gamers, so start telling them what you want and stop spending money with games until they make different stuff..

Thats my 2 cents.

Originally posted by TheScavenger

So...I think in this, we can learn that trolls and haters are actually quite right in a lot of these cases. Yet they get repeatedly banned or their posts deleted. I know when I was a fan of GW2 or SWTOR, I thought those two would never do wrong...well I was wrong. Could have saved a lot of time, hype and money on something else.

If you sit around everyday telling everyone that they will get sick or die, eventually you will be right here and there. SSDD