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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » MMO's are no longer "Worlds"

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198 posts found
  Ciano

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/12/09
Posts: 34

 
OP  12/15/12 8:45:24 AM#21
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Ciano
Originally posted by jpnz

Issue with this 'golden age of gaming' is that the MMO scene at the time was very niche and was not mainstream.

If that's what you call 'golden age', then that's your call.

As someone who loves MMOs and want more people to play it, I disagree and say that's the 'dark age of gaming' where 'MMO player' = 'lived in parents basement' to a lot of people and was shun.

I ask this question to every OP that posts this kind of stuff; 'what MMO do you sub right now? Are you actually putting your money where your mouth is?'

Heh yeah actually I am putting my money where my mouth is. I don't currently sub to any travesty of an MMO that is currently in existance. The last MMO's I put any significant funds into were Wurm Online and Darkfall. Darkfall didn't have immersion but at least it had a lively poliical atmospere.

So you are not helping your cause by not spending money on MMOs that might fit your bill like Darkfall or EVE-Online?

We have games that do 'world' fairly well, including your beloved old school UO (Emu).

If I like something I buy it. That's how I tell the people that made it, 'hey I like this, please make more.' Its called capitalism.

Now we have MMOs being played by movie stars, doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc etc.

Was the community better? Maybe for you personally.

For me, this current MMO community is miles better. YMMV.

I'm not sure if you've been paying attention but Darkfall is shut down and DF Unholy wars isn't ready yet. There goes that theory. Not to mention I've finished my time in EvE. Good game, wasn't for me anymore. 3 Years of subscription fees is enough support I think.

I've donated funds to independent games and spent money on games like Wurm just to support them. I've donated countless hours conducting developer level game testing and gotten my name in the credits of Dawn of Fantasy.

I've more than put my money where my mouth is. I support games that are worth supporting or seem innovative. I bought Mount and Blade when it was a late stage Alpha, before most people even know what it was.

I refuse to give any more money to Blizzard entertainment. They havn't innovated anything in a long time. Ditto the Command and Conquer franchise that EA bought up.

I had high hopes for Fallout Online before Bethesda gave Interplay the good old dirt nap recently.

 

You show me an innovative game that might actually be a digital game world instead of a theme park then I will happily throw my money behind it. Right now, that is increasingly less common.

 

As for the MMO community being better? I don't care what their jobs are. If they are part of the instant gratification crowd instead of those of us who want innovative and challenging game play, I have no use for them.

  Thane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1961

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

12/15/12 8:52:55 AM#22
Originally posted by Thane

there is one simple reason the mmos in the "good ol' days" have been better.

 

we played what they gave us.

we weren't like "uuuh i want an mmo where i can play this and that with having those but not these. also i want ..."

that's what we wrote on our "whishlist" for santa, back in the REALY old days.

 

when we got our first mmo's, we were happy we had em. we didn't dare to question them :)

 

daoc for example: 

 

* invisible walls

* instanced pvp (with a 15 mins queue on death)

* totaly unbalanced classes *hi there mr infi plz dont kill meeeeee!*

* it took ages to rest after you spend your mana

* you lost exp on death and lost whole lvls (reaching the higher end) when getting angry at certain mobs again

* bots everywhere! (tho they were buff bots those days, not farmbots hehe)

 

it wasn't all shiney back then :)

maybe it's just time to enjoy gaming again and stop doing it so fookin serious :)

 

 

play games as long they are fun and when they are not, wait until they go f2p and check in again or not ^^

 

 

seriously, i just quoted myself now, since you guys repeat yourselves again and again and won't stop doing new posts for it.

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  DancingQueen

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/12
Posts: 227

12/15/12 9:10:02 AM#23
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by xeniar
Originally posted by Loktofeit

"...today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with."

"No doubt the easyMMO apologists will be posting soon to tell us how wonderful modern MMO’s are, how they have evolved, how everything that comes from gaming companies is amazing. They sing “la, la, la” as they skip of into their marketing hype wonderland."

"...today's demographic of intellectually devoid tweens, F2P kiddies, and a whole generation of FPS addicts? Yeah I think I preferred the Dark Age of gaming as you called it. At least the community was better."

"I call it "Lowest Common Denominator Game Design"."

"Ignorance is bliss in the themepark garden of Eden."

None of you realize how you sound right now?  Really?

Loktofeit. i tought you where on the same page. regardless of how they are sounding.

I'm a massive fan of community-driven sandbox-focused MMOs, but I'm not about to deem my preference correct or better than someone else's, let alone deride them for their entertainment preference.

 

But you are better and more correct than someone else.

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

12/15/12 9:49:27 AM#24
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Ciano
 

Your Dark Age of gaming is a fallacy. It wasn't a matter of being a basement gollum. Computers and MMO's in general were really only accessible to statistically small amounts of people due to their cost. Therefore, only those who were really into them would bother spending the money. In fact, Ultima Online's demographics were mostly teens and young professionals (finanacially independent) with a smattering of adults here and there that got into it.

Let's compare that to today's demographic of intellectually devoid tweens, F2P kiddies, and a whole generation of FPS addicts? Yeah I think I preferred the Dark Age of gaming as you called it. At least the community was better.

Now we have MMOs being played by movie stars, doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc etc.

Was the community better? Maybe for you personally.

For me, this current MMO community is miles better. YMMV.

Not a huge step up... who do you see in the news mostly for all kinds of issues and mental problems...........

movie stars, sports players, few doctors, a lot of politicians, etc.........

Societies elite are often the worst people.

  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2405

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

12/15/12 9:55:53 AM#25
Originally posted by Ciano

I'm probably thread number 1 million but I wanted to voice my own thoughts on this matter. I'm about 29. I've played nearly every MMO since Sierra's "The Realm" back in the 90's. I cut my MMO teeth on Ultima Online, Dabbled in Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, EVE, Auto Assault, Meridian 59, Planetside 1 and 2, Star Wars Galaxies, Warhammer,  Darkfall, Pirates of the Burning Sea, and a whole host of other game's I've forgotten over the years.

 

I've noticed the MMO's came out of the text based genre of Online games called Mudds. They were text only so people relied on innovative ways to create "interactive" worlds and communities. Being a GM meant somthing. He or She was a god in the gaming world. They set the stage for the story, and determined the results of world events and player actions. In Meridian 59, players and GM's sat on a regional counsel of judges that put players on trial for real or imagined crimes. I remember the coolest thing ever was being put on trial for an attempted Pking. I had a GM as the judge, a player and the victim were the prosecution, and a volunteer player. I of course argued innocent and claimed that it was an accident, I was just practicing my sword swing "roleplay of course *gasp* people roleplay?" and accidently hit the other player. Of course the prosecution got theatrical and accused me of being a murderer and a liar. After a bit of back and forth the judge sentenced me to a small fine and an hour in prison and .... well dang I was flagged red for a day. That was the coolest event ever for me in MMO gaming. It was a real world.

Ultima Online took some of the power away from GM's but gave the roleplay event job to other employees. I remember specifically the Dupre roleplay events, the Lord British vs Lord Blackthorne events, and all the Halloween monster invasions and other things. Usually the boss monster was played by an Origin employee. The world occasionally changed and the developers changed things to go along with it. GM's and counselors even presided over player weddings and other events in game.

What is my point? Somwhere along the way we lost the concept of what made an MMO and interactive world worth playing in. GM's are now glorified hall monitors designed to keep us in our class rooms while we have the latest MMO theories shoved down our throats. Independent thought is usually ignored and drown out by a plethora or willing idiots who abhore art, creativity, and a requirement for intellectual thought during a game. Instead we fill games with endless leveling treadmills, static themeparks full of shinies, pointless and repetative battlegrounds. Developers have removed all requirements of challenge, creativities, individualism from games. Everything is predictable and Game Masters are now wholly reviled for their intrusive and yet mostly useless role in MMO's.

Am I simply getting old? When will developers release a game where things are challenging? Where success actually requires a community of players to survive? Why do games that allow a changing world and dynamic environment such as Wurm or Salem fail to attract the financial support to create a truly modern bug free version of a gaming "World" as opposed to the equivilant of a digital B movie?

All I want in the end is companies and players alike to release a game that goes back to the golden age of video gaming. Days when we logged in to play with certain people and participate in this event or that event because it was part of the story. Not to go on Quest A or B to obtain the latest must have item. Where game companies made a concerted effort to change the world in response to our actions or gave the tools for us to do it ourselves. I'll assert that innovative digital world likes Shadowbane, Salem, Wurm, don't fail because players don't want to play them. My assertion is that they fail because big name publishers with the money to make them successful are afraid to take a chance on them. That, and today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with.

Was a pretty good post until the enire, "Look at me, I am so much smarter than the average gamer" section...

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/15/12 10:43:08 AM#26

This may come as a shock to you but some of us are intellectually more capable than others. It doesn't mean we are more worthwhile as human beings, it just means what it says.

Many games that are popular to some people are boring to me. Just like when you do something with a guide and instantly know the best options you lose out on the rest of the content. Being smarter is like having a guide to the better options. It shortens the life of the content for you.

Depending on how much the content is based on grind, this can add years to the difference in how long the game is fun. Similarly if you play more it gets old faster and if you played certain kinds of games earlier than others you are bored while they are still excited.

Less intelligent people are just as guilty of attacking others for their enjoyment in a game that is played out for them. Its just that smarter people have had more games become old hat and there are less games that can stimulate them. And less intelligent people also trash games desgined for smarter people. Too hard, difficulty cliff, stupid, blah blah blah.

The constant barrage of people blaming you for being harder to stimulate even though you were born that way and have no control over it doesn't make the conversation any more civil. You guys know who you are.

Some people have a harder time finding stimulating games and when you see the massive ad campaigns for games that are just rehashes of games you are already tired of it gets upsetting.

And also more advanced games have smaller audiences which means less marketing which means harder to find them even if there are some out there. Plus all the people you know are excited about such and such game and since you can't play that kind of game anymore you get flamed and insulted constantly for not being interested in those games. You even get excluded from things for that reason.

The reason nerds are famous for being basement dwellers is that the more you diverge from the norm the more you lack access to peers to socialize with. Similarly depictions in popular media drive behavior which means that nerds are essentially trained by society to be basement dwellers and losers and they believe that is their only possible option. Stereotypes affects everyone equally. Nerds are legislated against as much as a group like many other minorities, besides no child left behind of course, but they still constitute a minority which is oppressed by society.

Maybe Loktofeit lucked out and hasn't internalized the same anger and frustration that many other intelligent people have, but that doesn't excuse his hypocritical behavior where he says he isn't going to say he is better than other people, because he is better than other people.

I live in an area where its quite easy to observe and calculate the life paths of various nerds, the nerds who are good people by Loktofeits standards tend to luck into social groups based on the various clumps of nerds in the area. Because access to peers, and I don't mean by age, is a pirmary factor in societally approved socialization.

 

Its easy for the majority group, in this case people who are the designated target audience of the AAA games industry to ignore various important factors and oppress minority groups since they aren't affected by the pressure and thus have little incentive to figure out why some people feel the way they feel.

That one "angry, elitist" person who does a little bit of trolling as a way to express frustration has no power over you. However when you as a community hit back that has real dangerous power over that "troll" that you are attacking socially.

If you don't like an individual you can just ignore them, they don't have the same option to ignore you.

A thread about how the game industry has fallen into the dark ages and is ruled by the lowest common denominator is totally harmless. A thread "counter trolling", or whatever word the kids use these days, that person or group of people is unwarranted and unnecessary. Which of the people in this scenario are the bad guys? Its not the elitist. Because actions are judged by effects and not intent.

  Tjed

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 161

12/15/12 10:59:09 AM#27
Originally posted by Ciano

I'm probably thread number 1 million *snip*

I know that you're joking around about the 1 million part, but eventaually that whole "no market" argument is going to sound silly. 

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/15/12 11:01:48 AM#28
Originally posted by Tjed
Originally posted by Ciano

I'm probably thread number 1 million *snip*

I know that you're joking around about the 1 million part, but eventaually that whole "no market" argument is going to sound silly. 

If its any help I have counted 1147 threads related to this topic since I've been here. If you count long breaks and also posts instead of threads and also my not reading every thread its probably close to 1million posts. Or maybe only 500000. Point being its high enough.

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/15/12 11:17:07 AM#29


Originally posted by Cuathon
This may come as a shock to you but some of us are intellectually more capable than others. It doesn't mean we are more worthwhile as human beings, it just means what it says.

<snip>




The problem is that the people saying stuff like this are using MMORPG to somehow prove it. Starting with Ultima Online, and ending with Guild Wars 2, anyone with below average intelligence and up can achieve the highest measures of success in all of these games. It just doesn't take that much intelligence to be a 'master' of these games.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/15/12 11:24:24 AM#30
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Cuathon
This may come as a shock to you but some of us are intellectually more capable than others. It doesn't mean we are more worthwhile as human beings, it just means what it says.

 




The problem is that the people saying stuff like this are using MMORPG to somehow prove it. Starting with Ultima Online, and ending with Guild Wars 2, anyone with below average intelligence and up can achieve the highest measures of success in all of these games. It just doesn't take that much intelligence to be a 'master' of these games.

 

That depends. I mentioned strategy guides in my post. With the whole game solved by the smart people the less intelligent can copy paste builds and strategies and be masters because the content is static. Its less static but still viscuous in PvP.

What you say may be true for OGame but its not true for Warring Factions, if we want examples from the space browser strategy genre. Because within a genre you can design for intellect or you can design for revenue. Guess what the corporations who now control the game industry do?

Which is why with MMOs we need to evaluate based on temporal comparisons. As I said in my post, smart players achieve mastery FASTER, barring the use of a guide made by someone who has already solved the system.

Did you read past the first few paragraphs? I addressed all these concerns. I got a little off topic at the end though.

Smart players in EvE or ATITD or even a little in SWG could master the game more quickly than less intelligent players.

The whole point of my post is that most MMOs are not designed for the intellectual players.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/15/12 11:27:57 AM#31

Actually part of this discussion has reminded me of another issue. Games based on intellect can be solved too easily, but execution is relegated to individuals. That's another problem with designing for intelligence in mind.

An ideal game designed to appeal to intelligence would require in game computations and decisions which couldn't be outsourced to a guide like for instance raid strategies in Rift and WoW.

Of course normal people would resort to punching answers into Wolfram Alpha because smart people are constantly designing themselves out fo existence. Are we really that smart eh? I know, its an old joke, but still.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 6398

12/15/12 11:34:41 AM#32
Many MMOs today are still worlds, in that they are large persistent worlds.
Now just because they don't fit into OPs narrow definition of what an online world is just an opinion. 
 
It's fine to have an opinion, but mistaking an opinion for a fact is delusional.
  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/15/12 11:39:09 AM#33


Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Cuathon This may come as a shock to you but some of us are intellectually more capable than others. It doesn't mean we are more worthwhile as human beings, it just means what it says.  
The problem is that the people saying stuff like this are using MMORPG to somehow prove it. Starting with Ultima Online, and ending with Guild Wars 2, anyone with below average intelligence and up can achieve the highest measures of success in all of these games. It just doesn't take that much intelligence to be a 'master' of these games.  
That depends. I mentioned strategy guides in my post. With the whole game solved by the smart people the less intelligent can copy paste builds and strategies and be masters because the content is static. Its less static but still viscuous in PvP.

What you say may be true for OGame but its not true for Warring Factions, if we want examples from the space browser strategy genre. Because within a genre you can design for intellect or you can design for revenue. Guess what the corporations who now control the game industry do?

Which is why with MMOs we need to evaluate based on temporal comparisons. As I said in my post, smart players achieve mastery FASTER, barring the use of a guide made by someone who has already solved the system.

Did you read past the first few paragraphs? I addressed all these concerns. I got a little off topic at the end though.

Smart players in EvE or ATITD or even a little in SWG could master the game more quickly than less intelligent players.

The whole point of my post is that most MMOs are not designed for the intellectual players.




I've played with people who are, outside of game worlds, dumb as a sack of hammers. I don't mean they are socially stunted and have trouble with conversations, but are really intelligent "inside". They are just dumb. They are the max level PvE, top of the hill PvP people in any MMORPG they've played. Whatever the skill is that it takes to be the 'best', they have it. Whatever that skill is, it is not intelligence.

I'll have to come back and edit this post to add more...food has arrived.

** edit **
I would say that Cuathon is right about games and intelligence though. Making a game for intelligence isn't going to lead to selling a lot of games.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/15/12 11:47:51 AM#34
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Cuathon This may come as a shock to you but some of us are intellectually more capable than others. It doesn't mean we are more worthwhile as human beings, it just means what it says.  
The problem is that the people saying stuff like this are using MMORPG to somehow prove it. Starting with Ultima Online, and ending with Guild Wars 2, anyone with below average intelligence and up can achieve the highest measures of success in all of these games. It just doesn't take that much intelligence to be a 'master' of these games.  
That depends. I mentioned strategy guides in my post. With the whole game solved by the smart people the less intelligent can copy paste builds and strategies and be masters because the content is static. Its less static but still viscuous in PvP.

 

What you say may be true for OGame but its not true for Warring Factions, if we want examples from the space browser strategy genre. Because within a genre you can design for intellect or you can design for revenue. Guess what the corporations who now control the game industry do?

Which is why with MMOs we need to evaluate based on temporal comparisons. As I said in my post, smart players achieve mastery FASTER, barring the use of a guide made by someone who has already solved the system.

Did you read past the first few paragraphs? I addressed all these concerns. I got a little off topic at the end though.

Smart players in EvE or ATITD or even a little in SWG could master the game more quickly than less intelligent players.

The whole point of my post is that most MMOs are not designed for the intellectual players.




I've played with people who are, outside of game worlds, dumb as a sack of hammers. I don't mean they are socially stunted and have trouble with conversations, but are really intelligent "inside". They are just dumb. They are the max level PvE, top of the hill PvP people in any MMORPG they've played. Whatever the skill is that it takes to be the 'best', they have it. Whatever that skill is, it is not intelligence.

I'll have to come back and edit this post to add more...food has arrived.

 

I dunno, in games based on execution, with other intelligent players solving what to do, you can focus totally on the doing. Do the people you refer to not ever read internet guides? Do they join a game and make their builds and actions entirely on their own? I highly doubt this. That is my point, MMOs are not designed for intelligence based gameplay because it all gets outsourced to the internet. The individual only cares about executing a memorized list of actions.

That is my whole point, arguing that MMOs dont require intelligence is exactly what I'm saying. Its why the smarter players tend to be bored. Because the game is trivial to solve. Its weird to see you acting like we are on opposite sides when we are totally in agreement.

 

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/15/12 11:50:31 AM#35
Originally posted by DMKano
Many MMOs today are still worlds, in that they are large persistent worlds.
Now just because they don't fit into OPs narrow definition of what an online world is just an opinion. 
 
It's fine to have an opinion, but mistaking an opinion for a fact is delusional.

Your one of those people that can't differentiate between colloquial and specialized uses arent you? A single word can have many different meanings.

In this case world refers to a dynamic game world whereas a themepark is a static game world. Players cannot effect the nature of the world.

In a dynamic player driven world players build cities or kill certain monsters permanently and many other things.

Did you notice that "Worlds" was in quotes? Seriously, some basic reading knowledge of terminology would do so much for you.

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/15/12 11:59:17 AM#36


Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Cuathon This may come as a shock to you but some of us are intellectually more capable than others. It doesn't mean we are more worthwhile as human beings, it just means what it says.  
The problem is that the people saying stuff like this are using MMORPG to somehow prove it. Starting with Ultima Online, and ending with Guild Wars 2, anyone with below average intelligence and up can achieve the highest measures of success in all of these games. It just doesn't take that much intelligence to be a 'master' of these games.  
That depends. I mentioned strategy guides in my post. With the whole game solved by the smart people the less intelligent can copy paste builds and strategies and be masters because the content is static. Its less static but still viscuous in PvP.   What you say may be true for OGame but its not true for Warring Factions, if we want examples from the space browser strategy genre. Because within a genre you can design for intellect or you can design for revenue. Guess what the corporations who now control the game industry do? Which is why with MMOs we need to evaluate based on temporal comparisons. As I said in my post, smart players achieve mastery FASTER, barring the use of a guide made by someone who has already solved the system. Did you read past the first few paragraphs? I addressed all these concerns. I got a little off topic at the end though. Smart players in EvE or ATITD or even a little in SWG could master the game more quickly than less intelligent players. The whole point of my post is that most MMOs are not designed for the intellectual players.
I've played with people who are, outside of game worlds, dumb as a sack of hammers. I don't mean they are socially stunted and have trouble with conversations, but are really intelligent "inside". They are just dumb. They are the max level PvE, top of the hill PvP people in any MMORPG they've played. Whatever the skill is that it takes to be the 'best', they have it. Whatever that skill is, it is not intelligence. I'll have to come back and edit this post to add more...food has arrived.  
I dunno, in games based on execution, with other intelligent players solving what to do, you can focus totally on the doing. Do the people you refer to not ever read internet guides? Do they join a game and make their builds and actions entirely on their own? I highly doubt this. That is my point, MMOs are not designed for intelligence based gameplay because it all gets outsourced to the internet. The individual only cares about executing a memorized list of actions.

That is my whole point, arguing that MMOs dont require intelligence is exactly what I'm saying. Its why the smarter players tend to be bored. Because the game is trivial to solve. Its weird to see you acting like we are on opposite sides when we are totally in agreement.

 




I don't pay that much attention to them. What I know is "dumb as a sack of hammers" and "they are at the top of the hill", whatever that hill happens to be. I don't think video games are a good measure of anything other than skill at playing video games.

Now, making a video game, any video game is a good measure of intelligence. Then looking at the particular features of a game and how well it meets the demands of the players is good too. But playing video games is almost never a measure of intelligence, and if it is, then the game that would be used isn't one that sells super well.

Sorry if this has gotten off topic.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/15/12 12:06:35 PM#37
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Cuathon This may come as a shock to you but some of us are intellectually more capable than others. It doesn't mean we are more worthwhile as human beings, it just means what it says.  
The problem is that the people saying stuff like this are using MMORPG to somehow prove it. Starting with Ultima Online, and ending with Guild Wars 2, anyone with below average intelligence and up can achieve the highest measures of success in all of these games. It just doesn't take that much intelligence to be a 'master' of these games.  
That depends. I mentioned strategy guides in my post. With the whole game solved by the smart people the less intelligent can copy paste builds and strategies and be masters because the content is static. Its less static but still viscuous in PvP.   What you say may be true for OGame but its not true for Warring Factions, if we want examples from the space browser strategy genre. Because within a genre you can design for intellect or you can design for revenue. Guess what the corporations who now control the game industry do? Which is why with MMOs we need to evaluate based on temporal comparisons. As I said in my post, smart players achieve mastery FASTER, barring the use of a guide made by someone who has already solved the system. Did you read past the first few paragraphs? I addressed all these concerns. I got a little off topic at the end though. Smart players in EvE or ATITD or even a little in SWG could master the game more quickly than less intelligent players. The whole point of my post is that most MMOs are not designed for the intellectual players.
I've played with people who are, outside of game worlds, dumb as a sack of hammers. I don't mean they are socially stunted and have trouble with conversations, but are really intelligent "inside". They are just dumb. They are the max level PvE, top of the hill PvP people in any MMORPG they've played. Whatever the skill is that it takes to be the 'best', they have it. Whatever that skill is, it is not intelligence. I'll have to come back and edit this post to add more...food has arrived.  
I dunno, in games based on execution, with other intelligent players solving what to do, you can focus totally on the doing. Do the people you refer to not ever read internet guides? Do they join a game and make their builds and actions entirely on their own? I highly doubt this. That is my point, MMOs are not designed for intelligence based gameplay because it all gets outsourced to the internet. The individual only cares about executing a memorized list of actions.

 

That is my whole point, arguing that MMOs dont require intelligence is exactly what I'm saying. Its why the smarter players tend to be bored. Because the game is trivial to solve. Its weird to see you acting like we are on opposite sides when we are totally in agreement.

 




I don't pay that much attention to them. What I know is "dumb as a sack of hammers" and "they are at the top of the hill", whatever that hill happens to be. I don't think video games are a good measure of anything other than skill at playing video games.

Now, making a video game, any video game is a good measure of intelligence. Then looking at the particular features of a game and how well it meets the demands of the players is good too. But playing video games is almost never a measure of intelligence, and if it is, then the game that would be used isn't one that sells super well.

Sorry if this has gotten off topic.

 

Right. It wouldn't sell very well because most people aren't smart. That's the whole point of the lowest common denominator argument. 

And when you don't make a lot of games of the same kind, you don't get a lot of high quality examples because you don't have the information to optimize fun. Which is a vicious cycle.

As for measures of intelligence. Playing basketball doesnt make a good measure for anything but basketball and being good at cooking doesn't measure anything but being good at cooking.

In programming that statement would evaluate to NULL. Its meaningless.

 

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6994

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

12/15/12 12:08:01 PM#38

I think too many seem to think the term role play means only thjat which exists in the mind.This is the age of video gaming and ,no i don`t want to go back to the days of having to only imagine it ,like reading a book.I nreal life i am actually not into reading books,i prefer the BETTER option which is to add more sense to the idea,example sight and sounds not just reading with your eyes.

In some cases some of the simple ideas were good but imo only because there waas no other option.Example the simple Wizardry design of roll the die and create characters.Then using the stat system your player became unique and yo ucould replay with different stats.

I have got bored with the static spawns and immobile npc`s ,this is why i don`t want to go back in time where  there is less options to make a great game.

The reason there is so many unhappy gamers is because the tech is here,the options are here but develoeprs are just too cheap to put in the ffort of using all the tools at hand to make a great game.I do nopt beleive the producers and board members are dumb,i thin k they have creative ideas and the know how,i just feel profits are determining more of the game designs.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20541

12/15/12 12:41:15 PM#39
Originally posted by Scot

 

And did I mention how modern MMO’s are “fun”? As long as they are fun that excuses everything. Even if they are not fun for you and the countless others like you. Even if Modern MMO’s struggle to keep subs or cash shops open after two months, that does not matter.

We have lost an immense amount of gameplay in MMO’s and while some has been added players are right to feel they have been short changed.

Of course, because that is the primary function of an entertainment product. And of course it does not matter if it is fun for only 2 month. Quailty is better than duration, don't you agree?

Loss? We gain an immense amont of gameplay. Now we have MOBA, lobby style MMO, arena pvp .. none of these styles are available in the beginning. Choices are good. Rejoice!

 

  Ciano

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/12/09
Posts: 34

 
OP  12/15/12 12:58:57 PM#40
Originally posted by Slampig
Originally posted by Ciano

I'm probably thread number 1 million but I wanted to voice my own thoughts on this matter. I'm about 29. I've played nearly every MMO since Sierra's "The Realm" back in the 90's. I cut my MMO teeth on Ultima Online, Dabbled in Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, EVE, Auto Assault, Meridian 59, Planetside 1 and 2, Star Wars Galaxies, Warhammer,  Darkfall, Pirates of the Burning Sea, and a whole host of other game's I've forgotten over the years.

 

I've noticed the MMO's came out of the text based genre of Online games called Mudds. They were text only so people relied on innovative ways to create "interactive" worlds and communities. Being a GM meant somthing. He or She was a god in the gaming world. They set the stage for the story, and determined the results of world events and player actions. In Meridian 59, players and GM's sat on a regional counsel of judges that put players on trial for real or imagined crimes. I remember the coolest thing ever was being put on trial for an attempted Pking. I had a GM as the judge, a player and the victim were the prosecution, and a volunteer player. I of course argued innocent and claimed that it was an accident, I was just practicing my sword swing "roleplay of course *gasp* people roleplay?" and accidently hit the other player. Of course the prosecution got theatrical and accused me of being a murderer and a liar. After a bit of back and forth the judge sentenced me to a small fine and an hour in prison and .... well dang I was flagged red for a day. That was the coolest event ever for me in MMO gaming. It was a real world.

Ultima Online took some of the power away from GM's but gave the roleplay event job to other employees. I remember specifically the Dupre roleplay events, the Lord British vs Lord Blackthorne events, and all the Halloween monster invasions and other things. Usually the boss monster was played by an Origin employee. The world occasionally changed and the developers changed things to go along with it. GM's and counselors even presided over player weddings and other events in game.

What is my point? Somwhere along the way we lost the concept of what made an MMO and interactive world worth playing in. GM's are now glorified hall monitors designed to keep us in our class rooms while we have the latest MMO theories shoved down our throats. Independent thought is usually ignored and drown out by a plethora or willing idiots who abhore art, creativity, and a requirement for intellectual thought during a game. Instead we fill games with endless leveling treadmills, static themeparks full of shinies, pointless and repetative battlegrounds. Developers have removed all requirements of challenge, creativities, individualism from games. Everything is predictable and Game Masters are now wholly reviled for their intrusive and yet mostly useless role in MMO's.

Am I simply getting old? When will developers release a game where things are challenging? Where success actually requires a community of players to survive? Why do games that allow a changing world and dynamic environment such as Wurm or Salem fail to attract the financial support to create a truly modern bug free version of a gaming "World" as opposed to the equivilant of a digital B movie?

All I want in the end is companies and players alike to release a game that goes back to the golden age of video gaming. Days when we logged in to play with certain people and participate in this event or that event because it was part of the story. Not to go on Quest A or B to obtain the latest must have item. Where game companies made a concerted effort to change the world in response to our actions or gave the tools for us to do it ourselves. I'll assert that innovative digital world likes Shadowbane, Salem, Wurm, don't fail because players don't want to play them. My assertion is that they fail because big name publishers with the money to make them successful are afraid to take a chance on them. That, and today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with.

Was a pretty good post until the enire, "Look at me, I am so much smarter than the average gamer" section...

That's not what I said at all. If you took it the wrong way I apologize. I call them "willing idiots" because there are a whole host of people out there that refuse to try any MMO that isn't a battlegrounds, level treadmill, mass market product. Games like EVE, Wurm, Shadowbane, Darkfall, etc are ignored because people are "afraid to lose their stuff" or "don't want to play a game that doesn't have tons of repeating quests with shinies".

God forbid these people actually learn what it's like to create their own content in a sandbox. No, they'd rather sit in goldshire on WOW and star at a bunch of partially nude dancing animated characters..... and swap romantic texts with some 40 year old man claiming to be an 18 year old college student.   That my friends is the extent of the imagination of gamers these days.

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