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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why linear games (including MMOs) just don't work

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82 posts found
  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2588

12/13/12 4:43:49 PM#61
Originally posted by Homitu
Originally posted by grounnn

<>

 All hail to the wall of text!

 I think what thescavanger is not seeing in reality is that the games are interective. While the games "might" be linear in some aspects they're fun and interactive while enjoying a story. But if you were only to watch the story you wouldn't have that added depth of fun and enjoyment that people are obtaining.

Hey!  Wall of text implies no formatting whatsoever.  I use paragraphs, punctuation and complete sentences, thank you very much!  Unfortunately it is true that the more I write, the less it tends to be read :/ 

Well, know this I read it all :)


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

12/13/12 4:59:44 PM#62

I think the whole thread is pretty moot.

It is not likely that no more linear games are going to be made. It is not likely that gamers stop to enjoy linear games like Halo, Dead space and bioshock.

So no matter what the rant is ... is not going to change anything.

  User Deleted
12/13/12 5:05:06 PM#63
I was going to finish reading this thread, but around page six I fell into tl;dr nested quote hell.
  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2588

12/13/12 6:20:04 PM#64
Originally posted by ezpz77
I was going to finish reading this thread, but around page six I fell into tl;dr nested quote hell.

Well I can safely say we've talked about the subject to death after 5 and 6. So there's really no more reason to continue in this thread.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  bishbosh2

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/12
Posts: 66

12/13/12 6:47:56 PM#65

making mmos based on storyline and linear gameplay is stupid. mmo means there are lots of players playing your game which means there is huge potential for emergent gameplay and most developers waste this potential by making a retarded themepark.

i wouldnt say linear games dont work. they do work. i reckon they are generally complete and utter shit and you have point when you essentially compare them with movies. you can just watch someone play them and you have pretty much played it yourself because you will pretty much end up doing the same thing.

there are lot of braindead people out there which like this sort of stuff and will pay for it. the reason why video games are video games and not movies is because of interactivity. there a lot of games out there which are pretty much borderline movies eg. bf3 single player campaign.

  Asheram

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1871

What happens when you get 5 stars do you get a cookie? ;)

12/13/12 6:55:32 PM#66
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by nariusseldon

A lot of rant ...

Yeah .. they don't work .. that is why Dead Space sells millions. Deus Ex sells millions. COD sells MANY millions.

The point is to enjoy the mechanics (whether it is killing stuff, stealth, or what-not) while going through the stories.

I gather that you don't like linear games. I like them. Your preference is just that .. no better than anyone elses.

The point for me is that linear games only have story going for them. Don't care if the mechanics are bad, horrible or non existant or best thing since sliced bread. A linear game is only for a story. And there is no point in going through a story, when I can fully watch it on Youtube. Mass Effect is all story, and I got a good part of that story (minus side quests) from just watching videos. (edit: same with SWTOR as I mentioned, all story...and I saw a good part of the story from videos)

Well I personally like to have 1st hand experience in said storyline.While what you are saying might be true if you dont find the gameplay fun or the story it isnt if you do enjoy the game.Deus Ex HR is one of the few games I have finished to the end and watching someone else play it for me just doesnt seem as fun and I just got Max payne 3 which is another I am finishing.

  aRtFuLThinG

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1011

12/13/12 7:46:11 PM#67
Originally posted by nariusseldon

A lot of rant ...

Yeah .. they don't work .. that is why Dead Space sells millions. Deus Ex sells millions. COD sells MANY millions.

Not disagreeing with your point at all, but Deus Ex (the original) was actually really famous for being the a non-linear game and many choices and different outcome.

 

It was famed for it's revolutionary gameplay (which style had since become standard for such games as Fallout series and the Elder Scroll series). It was awarded one of the 100 Greatest Games of All Time.

  tupodawg999

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 571

12/13/12 7:46:24 PM#68
I don't think the argument holds competely because it's still more fun to play once than watch once - but only once. The replayability rather than the playability is more the problem imo which is partly why i like Skyrim let's plays. Everyone plays it differently.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

12/13/12 10:36:32 PM#69
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by nariusseldon

A lot of rant ...

Yeah .. they don't work .. that is why Dead Space sells millions. Deus Ex sells millions. COD sells MANY millions.

Not disagreeing with your point at all, but Deus Ex (the original) was actually really famous for being the a non-linear game and many choices and different outcome.

 

It was famed for it's revolutionary gameplay (which style had since become standard for such games as Fallout series and the Elder Scroll series). It was awarded one of the 100 Greatest Games of All Time.

Yeh, i was citing Deus Ex Human Evolution, not the first one. The new one still allows you to solve any situation with multiple options, but the story is pretty linear.

 

  Khorian

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/07
Posts: 65

...

12/14/12 4:36:45 AM#70

I prefer to play a well-made singleplayer over a Multiplayer that tries to be a single player... if you know what I mean.

At least those games are honest, you know what you get. And if it's well done it will immerse you into the game world better than todays MMOs, where you can always and everywhere feel the scheme behind it.

A good singleplayer can still surprise you, wich most linear MMOs can not. Sure, you will play through it and probably never play it again. But if the journey was enjoyable, why not?

  Castillle

Forum Bunny

Joined: 10/24/10
Posts: 2681

12/14/12 5:06:00 AM#71

I honestly dont mind linear games. While i do have certain "go to" games, their linearity has had no effect on them.  i still play legend of mana every now and then and i love it. Its not linear either. But i also pop in wind waker, ff8, ff6, tos 2, etc. some linear, some not.

Heck some of the characters in games im mosst attached to are from linear games. Like sugar plumps. I was crying when she "died" n i was so happy wheni found out she was alive :o

 

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  Souldrainer

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/06
Posts: 1878

12/14/12 8:14:26 AM#72
Originally posted by Vrika
Cursed linearity. First literature died because they were only able to make linear books, then movie industry died because they couldn't figure out how to make non-linear movies. Now it looks like games industry is fated to follow in their sad footsteps because game-makers are stupid enough to make linear games. Why haven't they learned from flops like Lord of The Rings and Star Wars that linearity is not the way to go if you want to be profitable!

You actually make one of the best points in the thread.  Linearity has survived and will always survive, because linear experiences can be entertaining if the quality is there.  The OP starts of with a great sentiment, but then loses a lot of gusto and moxie by going to the extreme with it.

What he should have said is this...

"Sure, linear games are great sometimes, but the gaming genre, and MMOs in particular, are capable of so much more!"

That, my friends, is a core annoyance many of us have had since the dawn of games like Everquest and WOW.  The genre started off great with UO, an innovative persistent world experience.  After that, companies sought ways to exploit it... big companies.  Big companies make big themeparks because that is a safe business model.  What needs to happen is that MMO design needs to go indie.  We need MMO equivalents of games like Super Meat Boy, Mark of the Ninja, and Portal.  The problem is, MMO development currently cost too damned much for that to happen.  Nobody is insane enough (except for Curt Shilling- Kingdoms of Amalur -, poor guy) wants to build up a lifetime of cash and blow it on a risky IP.

TL:DR Version/Summary:

#1 Linear games are fine, but MMOs have potential to go way beyond linearity.

#2 MMO development needs to go Indie in order to make this happen.

#3 In order for MMO development to go Indie, we need a new type of technology to drastically reduce the cost of MMO development.

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  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

12/14/12 10:40:31 AM#73
Originally posted by Souldrainer

That, my friends, is a core annoyance many of us have had since the dawn of games like Everquest and WOW.  The genre started off great with UO, an innovative persistent world experience.  After that, companies sought ways to exploit it... big companies.  Big companies make big themeparks because that is a safe business model.  What needs to happen is that MMO design needs to go indie.  We need MMO equivalents of games like Super Meat Boy, Mark of the Ninja, and Portal.  The problem is, MMO development currently cost too damned much for that to happen.  Nobody is insane enough (except for Curt Shilling- Kingdoms of Amalur -, poor guy) wants to build up a lifetime of cash and blow it on a risky IP.

And even Amalur is pretty linear.

I think you miss one point. Companies did not move to themepark just because. It is obvioulsy more popular than UO, and EQ. The market is working.

You may need the "market of the ninja" (btw, it is a great game, and ironically very linear) of MMOs .. but not everyone does.

 

  Johnie-Marz

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/09
Posts: 860

12/14/12 10:59:58 AM#74
Ultimately if you want to play non-linear games, your best bet is Pen and Paper roleplaying games. 
  Rossboss

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/10
Posts: 241

12/14/12 11:46:35 AM#75

I equate Linear gameplay in MMORPGs to watching a TV show. It's fairly predictable, fairly common in style, and doesn't really offer any player freedom. It's good if you are bored and need to waste some time in 30 minute or less chunks.

 

The best way to get that unpredictable experience you are talking about is through tabletop gaming just because the rules are easily broken and easily made to a person's will.

I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10564

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

12/18/12 10:39:23 AM#76


Originally posted by Souldrainer

Originally posted by Vrika Cursed linearity. First literature died because they were only able to make linear books, then movie industry died because they couldn't figure out how to make non-linear movies. Now it looks like games industry is fated to follow in their sad footsteps because game-makers are stupid enough to make linear games. Why haven't they learned from flops like Lord of The Rings and Star Wars that linearity is not the way to go if you want to be profitable!
You actually make one of the best points in the thread.  Linearity has survived and will always survive, because linear experiences can be entertaining if the quality is there.  The OP starts of with a great sentiment, but then loses a lot of gusto and moxie by going to the extreme with it.

What he should have said is this...

"Sure, linear games are great sometimes, but the gaming genre, and MMOs in particular, are capable of so much more!"

That, my friends, is a core annoyance many of us have had since the dawn of games like Everquest and WOW.  The genre started off great with UO, an innovative persistent world experience.  After that, companies sought ways to exploit it... big companies.  Big companies make big themeparks because that is a safe business model.  What needs to happen is that MMO design needs to go indie.  We need MMO equivalents of games like Super Meat Boy, Mark of the Ninja, and Portal.  The problem is, MMO development currently cost too damned much for that to happen.  Nobody is insane enough (except for Curt Shilling- Kingdoms of Amalur -, poor guy) wants to build up a lifetime of cash and blow it on a risky IP.

TL:DR Version/Summary:

#1 Linear games are fine, but MMOs have potential to go way beyond linearity.

#2 MMO development needs to go Indie in order to make this happen.

#3 In order for MMO development to go Indie, we need a new type of technology to drastically reduce the cost of MMO development.




#3 is what I've said several times. MMOs are just a huge undertaking, and unless it gets significantly cheaper or easier to build them, they are always going to be done by bigger companies that have developed several games in the past.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

12/18/12 11:07:56 AM#77
Originally posted by Rossboss

I equate Linear gameplay in MMORPGs to watching a TV show. It's fairly predictable, fairly common in style, and doesn't really offer any player freedom. It's good if you are bored and need to waste some time in 30 minute or less chunks.

 

The best way to get that unpredictable experience you are talking about is through tabletop gaming just because the rules are easily broken and easily made to a person's will.

You are confused between freedom & predictability.

Many tv shows are unpredictable. Homeland at times. Dexter at times. It is all in the writing. Entertainment can be totally linear with zero freedom but still full of surprises. Have you read a good novel lately?

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

12/18/12 11:50:45 AM#78
I disagree entirely OP. My idea of entertainment is my own and judging by the sales of linear games, a LOT of people agree with me.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

12/18/12 2:15:40 PM#79
Originally posted by jtcgs
I disagree entirely OP. My idea of entertainment is my own and judging by the sales of linear games, a LOT of people agree with me.

Including me :)

 

  User Deleted
12/18/12 2:21:12 PM#80
Went to the store the other day and saw a box of Big Cheez-Its!  Then noticed the box said "New!"  New?  How so?  They been selling them for years.  Just because it says it's new, doesn't mean it is.  But someone out there will think it is new and buy it just because it says it's new.  Only takes one.
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