Originally posted by Zekiah

Here's a good read about Star Trek Online's lock box system, it points out the scam behind the "Free" to Play model and why it's considered gambling in some countries (and growing sentiment):

"4. Lockboxes can jeopardize an MMO's standing in a country.

The lockbox phenomenon has been going on a lot longer in the East than it has in the West, and as such many of those countries have butted heads with the game companies over these shady practices. As a result, there have been laws and regulations put into place to hold back the companies from going full-on Ebenezer Scrooge on players, but American and European governments have yet to respond in kind.

I'm just saying that if the argument can be made that lockboxes are virtual gambling, then they're going to end up as subjects of court rulings and possible legal entanglements. We've already seen this happen, and there's no reason to think it won't occur again."

more from massively...

I don't think there is any question.  It is gambling.

However that doesn't mean it's a scam unless you consider gambling a scam.

The best possible method is EVE or TERAs system. PLEX/Chronoscrolls.

P2P with a way to buy montly subscription and sell them in-game for very reasonable amounts of gold.

2 hours of farming and you've got enough gold to buy a month subscription in TERA, one lucky drop in a dungeon and BAM, 5 month subscription.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by eyelolled

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
To me B2P has all the same issues as f2p only it's more expensive, making it a sillier version of f2p. 

To me P2P has all the same issues as B2P only it's more expensive, making it a sillier version of F2P.

Yes.  Especially if there is a cash shop. 

Of  course that continued $15/month to access does seem a bit different than no sub fee...

yep. That $15/month is different than no sub fee but thats just the part that makes it more expensive. You know, the sillier part.

Some gamers want F2P with no cash shop, but that's a different subject.

I'm in favor of B2P w/ regular and optional paid DLC's/Non Pay-to-Win Cash shops.

Originally posted by Elminzter
only problem with f2p is you might end up paying more than the usual monthly sub or next to nothing for it.

Wait. For above, "only problem with f2p is you might end up PAYING MORE than the usaul monthly sub.....". Would that mean that the FREE in "f2p" is a lie? Misleading? A scam? Something people don't wish to believe?

Originally posted by Pivotelite

The best possible method is EVE or TERAs system. PLEX/Chronoscrolls.

 

P2P with a way to buy montly subscription and sell them in-game for very reasonable amounts of gold.

 

2 hours of farming and you've got enough gold to buy a month subscription in TERA, one lucky drop in a dungeon and BAM, 5 month subscription.

I still don't understand why ever single P2P game has not adopted this option. 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

IMHO, there really is no vs between them.   MMOs using the P2W business model don't really compete with the P2P ones.   By publisher admissions only 10% pay any amount at all, and if players aren't spending money on them, then how do they compete with the $15 for a monthly subscription?  

Ill never play anything with a cash shop.

And if you google it, americans spend more on cash shops in a month than your average gamer with 1 year sub for 15/month. I mean seriously, is this an issue? 50 cents a day?

But main problem i feel, is no good games worth the money. If you havent noticed the newer mmo's are kind of slacking in all departments now.

Originally posted by Onomas

Ill never play anything with a cash shop.

And if you google it, americans spend more on cash shops in a month than your average gamer with 1 year sub for 15/month. I mean seriously, is this an issue? 50 cents a day?

But main problem i feel, is no good games worth the money. If you havent noticed the newer mmo's are kind of slacking in all departments now.

 You forgot about to mention that it is only some, a vey small percentage of even gamers that spend a lot of money, or even more than sub would cost.

Yes some spend a lot, but most don't.

Most free to play gamer spend... nothing.

Originally posted by Onomas

Ill never play anything with a cash shop.

And if you google it, americans spend more on cash shops in a month than your average gamer with 1 year sub for 15/month. I mean seriously, is this an issue? 50 cents a day?

But main problem i feel, is no good games worth the money. If you havent noticed the newer mmo's are kind of slacking in all departments now.

http://www.newzoo.com/press-releases/global-mmo-games-spending-exceeds-12bn/

"Of all 50 million MMO gamers in the US, 23 million spend money on free-to-play or subscription MMOs."

"When zooming in on transaction data for a single month, the ARPPU for individual titles in May 2012 was $17 compared to $27 in October 2011"

So yes, you are right, the paying ones spent $17 .. a bit more than $15. But note two things:

1) A majority (27 out of 50m) did NOT pay.

2) The amount spent by those who pay is decreasing (from $27 to $17 in two years)

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Onomas

Ill never play anything with a cash shop.

And if you google it, americans spend more on cash shops in a month than your average gamer with 1 year sub for 15/month. I mean seriously, is this an issue? 50 cents a day?

But main problem i feel, is no good games worth the money. If you havent noticed the newer mmo's are kind of slacking in all departments now.

http://www.newzoo.com/press-releases/global-mmo-games-spending-exceeds-12bn/

"Of all 50 million MMO gamers in the US, 23 million spend money on free-to-play or subscription MMOs."

"When zooming in on transaction data for a single month, the ARPPU for individual titles in May 2012 was $17 compared to $27 in October 2011"

So yes, you are right, the paying ones spent $17 .. a bit more than $15. But note two things:

1) A majority (27 out of 50m) did NOT pay.

2) The amount spent by those who pay is decreasing (from $27 to $17 in two years)

"Free-to-play or subscription MMOs" may encompass more territory than you think, based on the group that study's coming from. Does that include MMOs like Farmville, The Sims, and Magic: the Gathering Online? We consider those substantially different than real MMOs, but they have the potential to all get lumped together into the same market by surveys like this.

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Onomas

Ill never play anything with a cash shop.

And if you google it, americans spend more on cash shops in a month than your average gamer with 1 year sub for 15/month. I mean seriously, is this an issue? 50 cents a day?

But main problem i feel, is no good games worth the money. If you havent noticed the newer mmo's are kind of slacking in all departments now.

http://www.newzoo.com/press-releases/global-mmo-games-spending-exceeds-12bn/

"Of all 50 million MMO gamers in the US, 23 million spend money on free-to-play or subscription MMOs."

"When zooming in on transaction data for a single month, the ARPPU for individual titles in May 2012 was $17 compared to $27 in October 2011"

So yes, you are right, the paying ones spent $17 .. a bit more than $15. But note two things:

1) A majority (27 out of 50m) did NOT pay.

2) The amount spent by those who pay is decreasing (from $27 to $17 in two years)

"Free-to-play or subscription MMOs" may encompass more territory than you think, based on the group that study's coming from. Does that include MMOs like Farmville, The Sims, and Magic: the Gathering Online? We consider those substantially different than real MMOs, but they have the potential to all get lumped together into the same market by surveys like this.

Newzoo does break out social games so this does NOT include farmville .. however,  it does include MOBAs like LOL, and arena pvp games like WOT.

Neither.... BTP all the way!

Guild Wars 2 & now The Secret World have shown the world how it should be done ;)

Some of you need to look at the game from the developers perspective.

A greater population means a more attractive game to spend money in. Some people have a lot of money that they can and wll spend if the game is attractive enough to keep them.

The freeloaders are there to keep the population higher and make the game more attractive.  Their payment is in the form of a service. 

The value of the freeloaders being involved in a game has already been proven. What needs to be established is how to charge the people that are willing to contribute.

Currently, the options are cash shop providing bonuses, cash shop providing elites, DLC, subscription perks. (I can't think of anything else off the top of my head)

The thing that I find most ironic, is that people who say subscription models are the best and F2P is always P2W should actually prefer that scenario. They shouldn't want a non-P2W game because they want to pay.  From a subscribers perspective, imagine a game where if you payed the subscription, your chances for getting high end loot are improved where as if you are freeloading, than you get reduced chances. Clearly P2W but I don't see a problem with it. 

F2P is here to stay, and it's a good thing even for the paying players.

I kind of hope it is B2P. 

But the thing with B2P is they still have cash shop.  The cashshop is just usually less controversial.  I always felt forced to pay in those f2p games in order to compete.  But with guild wars 2 and diablo 3 I never felt that way.  But diablo 3 have pvp patch coming out soon, that might mean it'll become more of a pay 2 win game.  Guild wars 2 I never felt forced to use the cashshop, since gear is easy to come by.  But if you want cool looking weapon that'll take a lot of real cash, or long hours of grind.