Originally posted by eyelolled

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by eyelolled
Why would you want to not have instances. That would mean that only x number of people could play the game. That seems a little bit silly if you ask me.

Because it is fun to compete over resources? Specially if you throw PvP into the mix. But yeah it is not for most people because it is much tougher to outsmart a human than a predictable AI.

Competition over resources doesn't require a lack of instances. A lack of instances creates an absolute limit for the number of players allowed to play.  If it's just about having competition for resources, instancing has very little to do with it.

Plus, "compete over resources" is not the only source of fun. Co-op is another. Lots of people have fun without competing with anything.

In fact, Arena instanced pvp allows the competing over resources too.

Originally posted by Elikal

Really, what gives? I am so tired of instanced this and instanced that. Alas it seems to be the new trend, to use Dungeons solely for endgame prolonging, see GW2. I really loved those open, huge dungeons as in the days of EQ2 and Vanguard, where you just could roam into.

Why Dungeons all were made instanced endgame these days. Meesa not liken thisen.

You say NO, but you still continue to buy and support these games!

Blame yourself for not supporting the cause and contributing to the issue as what you see as the problem with MMOs.

I dont mind instances. Theyve just become too cramped lately. And too linear. Remember maurodon in vanilla wow? You could get lost in there. That was the last time i felt like i was actually exploring a dungeon.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Wighty

We live in the day and age where everyone gets a trophy just for showing up. MMO's have bred this spoiled brat over entitled gamer complex. If people have to wait in line or actually compete over a mob in an non instanced world all their delicate sensibilities will be offended and they will likely turn into emo cutters.

 

The Gen I and Gen II games had it right, UO, DAOC, AC, EQ, Shadowbane.

 

AFAIK Darkfall (and similar like MO) are the only modern games that are going back to the roots of no hand holding, harsh world where YOU are responsible for your own survivability.

 

Instances are just a convenient way for developers to "let everyone win"... Everone gets to kill the 1000 year old dragon, Everyone gets the mythical unique item, everyone gets a cookie for showing up. 

 

Modern gamers are destroying gaming.

Lots of rant about modern gamers. So what if i want my entertainment now, instead of waiting 20 min for a boat.

"Harsh world" .. gimme a break. We are talking about games here. Are you deluding yourself to think that "surviving a harsh game world" is an achievement?

And by "destorying", you mean making millions? If it only destory what you like, then ... why should i care?

It is not the achievment but rather that it is much more fun to compete for something rather than being given to you on a platter.

McDonalds is making millions, billions probably but that does not mean that their food is good. It is just catering to the ignorant masses who does not know, or care, what is good for them.

Precisely... There in lies the problem.. Modern gamers want fast food gaming... Why cook a healthy and complex meal when you can "have it your way" Try making a braised short rib dish or traditional demi glace or a pork shoulder... these are all things that take time and offer a much greater satisfaction than a mere "quick fix"

Modern develops know exactly how to tap into this slow morphine drip by "letting everyone win" versus more controvertial developers that say, "we created the game that we wanted to play, if you don't like it tough shit"

Instancing just reinforces this mentality so yeah when everyone can win and everyone gets a cookie, yes the company will make millions and sell tons. That is succes for the devoper, yet loss for the gamer.

Some people want it easy, and have their diapers changed and bottoms powdered for them.. but then some can appreciate a little (or a lot) of CHALLENGE and RISK in their entertainment... and I don't mean having your character move around some instanced boss like dance dance revolution as challenge.

Originally posted by Wighty

Some people want it easy, and have their diapers changed and bottoms powdered for them.. but then some can appreciate a little (or a lot) of CHALLENGE and RISK in their entertainment... and I don't mean having your character move around some instanced boss like dance dance revolution as challenge.

What does challenge have to do with instance? An instance can be hard, and an instance can be easy.

And who are YOU to define what is an challenge.

Take D3 as an example ... it is totally instanced .. not even a MMO. And less than 0.0001% of the players can kill diablo on MP10 on hard core mode. So it is super challenging, but still an instance.

And don't tell me hard core is not risky .. one wrong move .. heck .. one lag .. and you lost everything.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by dave6660
Maybe you can get Nancy Reagan to be your spokesperson.

Nancy Reagan? Nah, this is more like Tipper Gore's territory.

You may too young to remember this, but Nancy Reagan was part of the "war on drugs" which used the catchphrase "Just Say No" (which George Carlin morphed into "just say no thank you.")

Originally posted by Skooma2

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by dave6660
Maybe you can get Nancy Reagan to be your spokesperson.

Nancy Reagan? Nah, this is more like Tipper Gore's territory.

You may too young to remember this, but Nancy Reagan was part of the "war on drugs" which used the catchphrase "Just Say No" (which George Carlin morphed into "just say no thank you.")

I remember "just say no".

I also remember "here is your brain" .. "here is your brain on drugs" ... and an egg sizzles in a pan. Something like that. Does that mean that i am too old?

I am just tired of transforming MMOs step by step into single player games with online feature. That's not why I went to play MMOs. I can accept instances as brief one-time story instance, which happens rarely and isn't repeated. But overall I notice less and less people around me. Or they are all soloing in a hurry that there isn't any real cooperation of socializing, like in GW2, IF you meet people, they are both silent and superbusy. Dungeons were such a fun place to roam inside. Now they are way too much goal-achieved things. You "solve" dungeons, you have a task with a group in them. That's just wrong!

I dunno, somehow MMOs entirely evolved wrong. It's all about achieving something, quick levelling, easy content, all nice and personal in your private dungeon all ready made for you, and people are working alone. It's just one part of a development I do not find very exciting anymore.

Originally posted by Elikal

I am just tired of transforming MMOs step by step into single player games with online feature. That's not why I went to play MMOs. I can accept instances as brief one-time story instance, which happens rarely and isn't repeated. But overall I notice less and less people around me. Or they are all soloing in a hurry that there isn't any real cooperation of socializing, like in GW2, IF you meet people, they are both silent and superbusy. Dungeons were such a fun place to roam inside. Now they are way too much goal-achieved things. You "solve" dungeons, you have a task with a group in them. That's just wrong!

I dunno, somehow MMOs entirely evolved wrong. It's all about achieving something, quick levelling, easy content, all nice and personal in your private dungeon all ready made for you, and people are working alone. It's just one part of a development I do not find very exciting anymore.

Yep, a bunch of solo players playing alongside each other, ignoring each other. Gotta love themeparks eh?

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by Elikal

I am just tired of transforming MMOs step by step into single player games with online feature. That's not why I went to play MMOs. I can accept instances as brief one-time story instance, which happens rarely and isn't repeated. But overall I notice less and less people around me. Or they are all soloing in a hurry that there isn't any real cooperation of socializing, like in GW2, IF you meet people, they are both silent and superbusy. Dungeons were such a fun place to roam inside. Now they are way too much goal-achieved things. You "solve" dungeons, you have a task with a group in them. That's just wrong!

I dunno, somehow MMOs entirely evolved wrong. It's all about achieving something, quick levelling, easy content, all nice and personal in your private dungeon all ready made for you, and people are working alone. It's just one part of a development I do not find very exciting anymore.

Yep, a bunch of solo players playing alongside each other, ignoring each other. Gotta love themeparks eh?

A very unnecessary and wrong jab. Last time i play wow, it was LFD .. and you have to work with 4 other guys to beat the boss.

Now if you say "a lobby game with co-op small group content", then i will agree.

And yeah .. what not to love about them?

Originally posted by ice-vortex
Instances are a non-MMO feature, same as arena PVP. They have no place in an MMO as both features do great damage to the MMO community.

Maybe you should stop thinking it as a MMO, and just as a video game.

Besides most game have non instance area and non arena pvp.  If you don't like those you can just do whatever open world thing you like.  But you still complain?  why?  Because you want those people to stop doing instance dungeon and arena pvp so you have people to play with.

The truth and funny thing is almost everyone like open world pve and pvp.  yet when they exist most people dont' play them.  You go to GW2 website and everyone says they like open world over instance dungeon.  yet those open world area is empty and everyone is in an instance. 

Originally posted by ice-vortex
Instances are a non-MMO feature, same as arena PVP. They have no place in an MMO as both features do great damage to the MMO community.

 Not at all.  Most things in an MMO are designed so they can be completed by a small group.  Thats why group sizes cap at what 6-10?  Yes there are raids and such that go bigger and thats fine and good.  It still doesn't escape that most activites are for small group encounters.

Originally posted by krondin
Instancing has become a nessicity in mmo's due to a combination of organized gold farming ( mostly ) ,  and large guild organizations who can easily take advantage of open raiding situations, depriving the rest of us of enjoyment of them.  Its a type of gaming that has come to mainstream and offers its own benifits, alot of which you dont think about, for example, if you are in a instanced 5 man dungeon, you dont have to worry about other players entering your area and killing your mobs or bosses, kill stealing you for  loots, or otherwise making it all a bad playtime. So pro's and Con's i just wonder what will be next in mmo inovations we can all maybe enjoy.

The next innovation already arived, although a lot of people over look it or ignored it.  GW2's loot system is the perfect fix for the need for instanced dungeons.  Every player gets their own loot table, based off how much they did to kill the mob in question.  Why GW2 chose to have zero non-instanced dungeons is beyond me.

Originally posted by ice-vortex
Instances are a non-MMO feature, same as arena PVP. They have no place in an MMO as both features do great damage to the MMO community.

Exactly. Instances might be the biggest community-killing factor that was introduced, all it does is isolate players and creates a network of single players playing inside bubbles.

Hmm, isolation bubbles. Pretty much.

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by ice-vortex
Instances are a non-MMO feature, same as arena PVP. They have no place in an MMO as both features do great damage to the MMO community.

Maybe you should stop thinking it as a MMO, and just as a video game.

Besides most game have non instance area and non arena pvp.  If you don't like those you can just do whatever open world thing you like.  But you still complain?  why?  Because you want those people to stop doing instance dungeon and arena pvp so you have people to play with.

The truth and funny thing is almost everyone like open world pve and pvp.  yet when they exist most people dont' play them.  You go to GW2 website and everyone says they like open world over instance dungeon.  yet those open world area is empty and everyone is in an instance. 

That is quite simple my friend.

as you always want to progress your character you will level them in the open. but once you hit that nasty level cap. the best items (sets) are obtainable trough dungeons. So by having the best loot in there we are force to do them over open world activities. thats why if a MMO is full open world pvp dungeons whatever then people would enjoy it more

Originally posted by xeniar

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by ice-vortex
Instances are a non-MMO feature, same as arena PVP. They have no place in an MMO as both features do great damage to the MMO community.

Maybe you should stop thinking it as a MMO, and just as a video game.

Besides most game have non instance area and non arena pvp.  If you don't like those you can just do whatever open world thing you like.  But you still complain?  why?  Because you want those people to stop doing instance dungeon and arena pvp so you have people to play with.

The truth and funny thing is almost everyone like open world pve and pvp.  yet when they exist most people dont' play them.  You go to GW2 website and everyone says they like open world over instance dungeon.  yet those open world area is empty and everyone is in an instance. 

That is quite simple my friend.

as you always want to progress your character you will level them in the open. but once you hit that nasty level cap. the best items (sets) are obtainable trough dungeons. So by having the best loot in there we are force to do them over open world activities. thats why if a MMO is full open world pvp dungeons whatever then people would enjoy it more

Do you know what rewarding open world thing look like?  It's called over camped area where everyone try to tag the monster to get the loot.  Do you know what open world boss look like?  It's called impossible if not have enough people, and impossible to fail and you can hit the boss twice and go afk and get rewarded.  And rewarding open world pvp?  It's called kill trading.  That is essentially the so called open world pve and pvp I played. 

The only thing you saw is you want the ideological mmorpg.  What you fail to understand is making it work is harder than reality.

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by xeniar

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by ice-vortex
Instances are a non-MMO feature, same as arena PVP. They have no place in an MMO as both features do great damage to the MMO community.

Maybe you should stop thinking it as a MMO, and just as a video game.

Besides most game have non instance area and non arena pvp.  If you don't like those you can just do whatever open world thing you like.  But you still complain?  why?  Because you want those people to stop doing instance dungeon and arena pvp so you have people to play with.

The truth and funny thing is almost everyone like open world pve and pvp.  yet when they exist most people dont' play them.  You go to GW2 website and everyone says they like open world over instance dungeon.  yet those open world area is empty and everyone is in an instance. 

That is quite simple my friend.

as you always want to progress your character you will level them in the open. but once you hit that nasty level cap. the best items (sets) are obtainable trough dungeons. So by having the best loot in there we are force to do them over open world activities. thats why if a MMO is full open world pvp dungeons whatever then people would enjoy it more

Do you know what rewarding open world thing look like?  It's called over camped area where everyone try to tag the monster to get the loot.  Do you know what open world boss look like?  It's called impossible if not have enough people, and impossible to fail and you can hit the boss twice and go afk and get rewarded.  And rewarding open world pvp?  It's called kill trading.  That is essentially the so called open world pve and pvp I played. 

The only thing you saw is you want the ideological mmorpg.  What you fail to understand is making it work is harder than reality.

 

so in what game have you seen this? because my experience is quite diffrent.

Originally posted by xeniar

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by xeniar

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by ice-vortex
Instances are a non-MMO feature, same as arena PVP. They have no place in an MMO as both features do great damage to the MMO community.

Maybe you should stop thinking it as a MMO, and just as a video game.

Besides most game have non instance area and non arena pvp.  If you don't like those you can just do whatever open world thing you like.  But you still complain?  why?  Because you want those people to stop doing instance dungeon and arena pvp so you have people to play with.

The truth and funny thing is almost everyone like open world pve and pvp.  yet when they exist most people dont' play them.  You go to GW2 website and everyone says they like open world over instance dungeon.  yet those open world area is empty and everyone is in an instance. 

That is quite simple my friend.

as you always want to progress your character you will level them in the open. but once you hit that nasty level cap. the best items (sets) are obtainable trough dungeons. So by having the best loot in there we are force to do them over open world activities. thats why if a MMO is full open world pvp dungeons whatever then people would enjoy it more

Do you know what rewarding open world thing look like?  It's called over camped area where everyone try to tag the monster to get the loot.  Do you know what open world boss look like?  It's called impossible if not have enough people, and impossible to fail and you can hit the boss twice and go afk and get rewarded.  And rewarding open world pvp?  It's called kill trading.  That is essentially the so called open world pve and pvp I played. 

The only thing you saw is you want the ideological mmorpg.  What you fail to understand is making it work is harder than reality.

 

so in what game have you seen this? because my experience is quite diffrent.

guild wars 2.  warhammer online.  warhammer online is only for token and when fighting castle since that is the only place to drop certain piece of armor.  The reality is most game I played the developer is smart enough to put dimishing return or bad reward for open pvp because they know people exploit it. 

I know games like Eve, darkfall, or whatever dont' have that problem.  Because it's a full loot game.  You can't expect those pve carebear game to have the samething right?

Oh ya and for EQ2 on one server it's called raid boss is hard and impossible to fail and if you on the other server it's called camp mode.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by ice-vortex
Instances are a non-MMO feature, same as arena PVP. They have no place in an MMO as both features do great damage to the MMO community.

 Not at all.  Most things in an MMO are designed so they can be completed by a small group.  Thats why group sizes cap at what 6-10?  Yes there are raids and such that go bigger and thats fine and good.  It still doesn't escape that most activites are for small group encounters.

Small groups, and even soloers, are still within the MMO world and they populate the community. Instances and arena PVP have a negative effect on the community as they take players out of the world, leaving it barren.