There has been some discussion here as of late regarding the implementation of "long term systems" , or better known as repetitive (and in some cases time gated) grind content recently added to STO. The debate has been whether or not these were good additions for a content starved game.

I found this very interesting and telling post made over on the official STO forums to share which I believe sums up the issue quite nicely.  The post is from a player who belongs to one of the oldest and (if not the) largest fleets in STO, Jupiter Force.  Those familiar with STO since the beginning will have heard of Jupiter Force as they used to produce the STOked podcast.  Notice the emphasis on used to.   They abandoned the podcast some time ago.

The thread this post appears in deals with a discussion on small fleets suffering under with building their holdings, but I think the post sums up the problem with Season 7 as a whole, as well as the direction STO is going with "long term systems".

To quote the article (Link to original);

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As a large fleet we struggle to find the fleet marks to sustain projects in the haul between Tier IV and Tier V, and that is despite having a hundred characters maxed in DOFFs and 30+ people active everyday. With all the various gated systems in the game, not to mention playstyles, it's simply not possible right now to get enough fleet marks to sustain 3 projects a day unless everyone actively farms fleet marks, and fleets simply can't ask members to do this every day for months and months with no end in sight.

...

If it takes a large active fleet like Jupiter Force a month to fill fleet marks on a Starbase upgrade project, I'm sorry but it suggests to me smaller fleets have no shot in hell of filling it in a way that sustains momentum and active engagement with the system by members of small fleets.

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I think this part is what hits the nail on the proverbial head.

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The way STO has disconnected players from the various currencies required to pace progress to the content systems in the game is the failure of Season 7, and probably the single best thing STO could do to encourage players to try TOR F2P.

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So for those touting the "long term systems" as being the salvation of STO and "a good thing", pay close attention to posts like this. This is an active fleet of 30+ players on daily who are telling you "this is too much of a grind and it needs to change." This is the difficulty a larger, active group is facing with just Starbases alone, not including Embassy or Omega rep grinding. Just imagine this from the perspective of the small, casual groups.

I agree with the the author, and IMO this is a good indicator as to what is wrong with STO and Season 7's "content" ... and I use the the word content loosely.

Originally posted by ShardWarrior

Those familiar with STO since the beginning will have heard of Jupiter Force as they used to produce the STOked podcast.  Notice the emphasis on used to.   They abandoned the podcast some time ago.

Damn... :I

Sorry to take that line out from your post (btw I agree with the rest, I play mostly story and Foundry missions and goofing around with my DOffs, and skipped the Fleet thing entirely because STO became way too grindy for me)

STOked is gone? True, I didn't followed the casts in the last few months, but I kept directing folks (both ingame and on forums) to the page if they had some questions... That's not good news, it's / was a great stream.

Excellent follow-up post can be seen here;

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...

But fleets like Jupiter Force, and there may be as many as a dozen in the whole game, are the exceptions, not the rule.

...my concern more specific to the unrealistic access to the various currencies needed by a player to be engaged in the numerous (and increasing number) systems in the game. A player is now gated by time horizontally by each individual system that requires a specific time period to complete a project, but is also gated by time vertically by having to spend time accumulating resources for each individual system independently. There is no functional way in the game to play STO at a reasonable pace and be engaged in the multiple systems simultaneously.

That's a legit problem because it's hard to keep folks motivated when major aspects of what Cryptic advertises as their primary content systems are disconnected from a players gaming experience. What good are Starbases at end game if 99% of the community doesn't have a realistic shot at advancing the system in a way it is even eventually achievable.

I find it hard to believe Starbase Tier V will ever mean anything in STO if only a tiny number of people are in a fleet with one, meaning once built it won't have value for Cryptic to spend resources building more content options for that tiny dedicated Tier V group.

So yeah for me, I'll have a Tier V Starbase, and it will mean nothing because not enough others will have one to inspire Cryptic to develop end game content for the Starbase system. That would suck to work so hard for what amounts to no rewards beyond access to a few more item options. I think most people understand a Tier V Starbase could be a great mechanism for content, particularly via the Foundry, but that doesn't happen if the Starbase is a system that can't be realistically completed by the majority of players...

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Originally posted by ShardWarrior

Excellent follow-up post can be seen here;

 

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...

 

But fleets like Jupiter Force, and there may be as many as a dozen in the whole game, are the exceptions, not the rule.

...my concern more specific to the unrealistic access to the various currencies needed by a player to be engaged in the numerous (and increasing number) systems in the game. A player is now gated by time horizontally by each individual system that requires a specific time period to complete a project, but is also gated by time vertically by having to spend time accumulating resources for each individual system independently. There is no functional way in the game to play STO at a reasonable pace and be engaged in the multiple systems simultaneously.

That's a legit problem because it's hard to keep folks motivated when major aspects of what Cryptic advertises as their primary content systems are disconnected from a players gaming experience. What good are Starbases at end game if 99% of the community doesn't have a realistic shot at advancing the system in a way it is even eventually achievable.

I find it hard to believe Starbase Tier V will ever mean anything in STO if only a tiny number of people are in a fleet with one, meaning once built it won't have value for Cryptic to spend resources building more content options for that tiny dedicated Tier V group.

So yeah for me, I'll have a Tier V Starbase, and it will mean nothing because not enough others will have one to inspire Cryptic to develop end game content for the Starbase system. That would suck to work so hard for what amounts to no rewards beyond access to a few more item options. I think most people understand a Tier V Starbase could be a great mechanism for content, particularly via the Foundry, but that doesn't happen if the Starbase is a system that can't be realistically completed by the majority of players...

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In the interest of fairness, here's the post being responded to, since both sides are rarely presented or considered here:

"But there is an end in sight, contrary to the part of your rant I highlighted in red. Eventually, your fleet (and mine) will achieve Tier V, which will actually feel like a major accomplishment, which is something that few games allow players to do these days.

Why?

Because the "instant gratification" crowd is being catered to in every game.

Let me ask you a question. Given the size of your fleet, and comparing that to the capabilities of smaller fleets, what if you had attained a T5 Starbase in just two or three weeks? What would you be saying, or more likely, be complaining about then?

"It's too easy!" "It's too fast!" "No challenge!" And, ultimately, "I don't have anything to work toward or do."
Why should a small fleet, with perhaps 2 or 3 active players, be able to attain a major achievement in the game quickly?

Sorry, this is an MMO. I've seen the entire genre turned upside-down because so many casual and solo players expect everything to be easily attained. I'm glad this one system has been different.

And that's ultimately what I see here. The vast majority of the complaining hasn't been about the desire to have a high tier starbase - indeed, most appear to want one. The complaints center around the fact that they can't get one fast or easily enough. That's the problem with the instant gratification mentality, which has been destroying the MMORPG genre for years."

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=7051431&postcount=74

The last paragraph is the most telling, and contradicts the message of the original post.  Players do appear to enjoy and want the content, they just want it to be easier to attain.

By the way, as opposed to the misleasing title of this thread, Fleet Advancement was a primary component of Season 6, not Season 7, though Embassies were a part of the FA system added in S7.

First, anyone can read through the entire thread on the official forum as it is linked from the OP.  Second, please show anyone here where someone asked for "instant gratification".    Lastly, you are (again) trying to deflect reality by tossing out the "instant gratification" mantra and dismissing any opinion that differs from your rose colored glasses  view of STO.  Yes, people do want the content.  Anyone who reads the thread can clearly see that.  No, they do not want to spend several years doing the same tedious, boring tasks in order to obtain a single tier in their starbase.  

The tasks involved are boring, tedious and repetitive.  Players in the larger fleets are already having retention issues with members because the game has become too much like work and not enough like entertainment.  Fleets with 25+ members are finding it boring and saying it will take us over a year to achieve the top tier.  What about groups less than 25?  Less than 10?  They are looking at years, if at all, to achieve the same.  The effort involved is boring, punitive, and not rewarding.  

The situation highlighted with Starbases in the attached post is the same as it is with the "content" that was introduced with Season 7.  That is the gist of the thread.

Originally posted by ShardWarrior

First, anyone can read through the entire thread on the official forum as it is linked from the OP.  Second, please show anyone here where someone asked for "instant gratification".    Lastly, you are (again) trying to deflect reality by tossing out the "instant gratification" mantra and dismissing any opinion that differs from your rose colored glasses  view of STO.  Yes, people do want the content.  Anyone who reads the thread can clearly see that.  No, they do not want to spend several years doing the same tedious, boring tasks in order to obtain a single tier in their starbase.  

 

The tasks involved are boring, tedious and repetitive.  Players in the larger fleets are already having retention issues with members because the game has become too much like work and not enough like entertainment.  Fleets with 25+ members are finding it boring and saying it will take us over a year to achieve the top tier.  What about groups less than 25?  Less than 10?  They are looking at years, if at all, to achieve the same.  The effort involved is boring, punitive, and not rewarding.  

 

The situation highlighted with Starbases in the attached post is the same as it is with the "content" that was introduced with Season 7.  That is the gist of the thread.

 

 

 

 

From reading the thread, there are many, many people still engaged in working toward the goal of Fleet Advancement, building a starbase, embassy, what have you.  Some may want to attain the goals faster than others, but they like the content.

That system is almost 6 months old, and it's still got people engaged.

How much "story" content, how many PvE instances, keep giving people a meaningful reason to play for 6 months?

Short answer is: none.  Not in any game.  Story content becomes tedious and repetitive after the first time.

Just my opinion, but long term systems are better at providing meaningful play in a MMO over the long haul, and are much more cost effective than story-based content is to produce.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't like new Episodes.  Overall, I think the stories in STO were better than what you find in most MMOs.  I also think they could tie them in better with gaining marks and such.

Then again, I also like playing Foundry stuff, and see that as a great feature of the game.

Originally posted by Rohn

Originally posted by ShardWarrior

Excellent follow-up post can be seen here;

 

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...

 

But fleets like Jupiter Force, and there may be as many as a dozen in the whole game, are the exceptions, not the rule.

...my concern more specific to the unrealistic access to the various currencies needed by a player to be engaged in the numerous (and increasing number) systems in the game. A player is now gated by time horizontally by each individual system that requires a specific time period to complete a project, but is also gated by time vertically by having to spend time accumulating resources for each individual system independently. There is no functional way in the game to play STO at a reasonable pace and be engaged in the multiple systems simultaneously.

That's a legit problem because it's hard to keep folks motivated when major aspects of what Cryptic advertises as their primary content systems are disconnected from a players gaming experience. What good are Starbases at end game if 99% of the community doesn't have a realistic shot at advancing the system in a way it is even eventually achievable.

I find it hard to believe Starbase Tier V will ever mean anything in STO if only a tiny number of people are in a fleet with one, meaning once built it won't have value for Cryptic to spend resources building more content options for that tiny dedicated Tier V group.

So yeah for me, I'll have a Tier V Starbase, and it will mean nothing because not enough others will have one to inspire Cryptic to develop end game content for the Starbase system. That would suck to work so hard for what amounts to no rewards beyond access to a few more item options. I think most people understand a Tier V Starbase could be a great mechanism for content, particularly via the Foundry, but that doesn't happen if the Starbase is a system that can't be realistically completed by the majority of players...

---

 

 

In the interest of fairness, here's the post being responded to, since both sides are rarely presented or considered here:

 

"But there is an end in sight, contrary to the part of your rant I highlighted in red. Eventually, your fleet (and mine) will achieve Tier V, which will actually feel like a major accomplishment, which is something that few games allow players to do these days.

Why?

Because the "instant gratification" crowd is being catered to in every game.

Let me ask you a question. Given the size of your fleet, and comparing that to the capabilities of smaller fleets, what if you had attained a T5 Starbase in just two or three weeks? What would you be saying, or more likely, be complaining about then?

"It's too easy!" "It's too fast!" "No challenge!" And, ultimately, "I don't have anything to work toward or do."
Why should a small fleet, with perhaps 2 or 3 active players, be able to attain a major achievement in the game quickly?

Sorry, this is an MMO. I've seen the entire genre turned upside-down because so many casual and solo players expect everything to be easily attained. I'm glad this one system has been different.

And that's ultimately what I see here. The vast majority of the complaining hasn't been about the desire to have a high tier starbase - indeed, most appear to want one. The complaints center around the fact that they can't get one fast or easily enough. That's the problem with the instant gratification mentality, which has been destroying the MMORPG genre for years."

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=7051431&postcount=74

 

The last paragraph is the most telling, and contradicts the message of the original post.  Players do appear to enjoy and want the content, they just want it to be easier to attain.

By the way, as opposed to the misleasing title of this thread, Fleet Advancement was a primary component of Season 6, not Season 7, though Embassies were a part of the FA system added in S7.

GOD I LOVE THAT POST! It's the casual gamers and the people who want instant gratification that's the issue. Thank god some people in the industry still understand this! I feel like going back to STO just because of that statement. I love grind, and I love working towards a very long goal, if their team is willing enough to put grind back into their game they're on the right track.

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Originally posted by Rohn

From reading the thread, there are many, many people still engaged in working toward the goal of Fleet Advancement, building a starbase, embassy, what have you.  Some may want to attain the goals faster than others, but they like the content. That system is almost 6 months old, and it's still got people engaged.

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Yes, it has kept those in the handful of large Fleets engaged. The likely majority who are not in those large fleets however...

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How much "story" content, how many PvE instances, keep giving people a meaningful reason to play for 6 months?Short answer is: none.

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Cryptic has to add episodic content to the game before anyone can say it would not keep people engaged.

Originally posted by grounnn

Originally posted by Rohn

In the interest of fairness, here's the post being responded to, since both sides are rarely presented or considered here:

 

"But there is an end in sight, contrary to the part of your rant I highlighted in red. Eventually, your fleet (and mine) will achieve Tier V, which will actually feel like a major accomplishment, which is something that few games allow players to do these days.

Why?

Because the "instant gratification" crowd is being catered to in every game.

Let me ask you a question. Given the size of your fleet, and comparing that to the capabilities of smaller fleets, what if you had attained a T5 Starbase in just two or three weeks? What would you be saying, or more likely, be complaining about then?

"It's too easy!" "It's too fast!" "No challenge!" And, ultimately, "I don't have anything to work toward or do."
Why should a small fleet, with perhaps 2 or 3 active players, be able to attain a major achievement in the game quickly?

Sorry, this is an MMO. I've seen the entire genre turned upside-down because so many casual and solo players expect everything to be easily attained. I'm glad this one system has been different.

And that's ultimately what I see here. The vast majority of the complaining hasn't been about the desire to have a high tier starbase - indeed, most appear to want one. The complaints center around the fact that they can't get one fast or easily enough. That's the problem with the instant gratification mentality, which has been destroying the MMORPG genre for years."

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=7051431&postcount=74

 

The last paragraph is the most telling, and contradicts the message of the original post.  Players do appear to enjoy and want the content, they just want it to be easier to attain.

By the way, as opposed to the misleasing title of this thread, Fleet Advancement was a primary component of Season 6, not Season 7, though Embassies were a part of the FA system added in S7.

GOD I LOVE THAT POST! It's the casual gamers and the people who want instant gratification that's the issue. Thank god some people in the industry still understand this! I feel like going back to STO just because of that statement. I love grind, and I love working towards a very long goal, if their team is willing enough to put grind back into their game they're on the right track.

I agree with you 100%.

It's easy to label something - anything - a "grind" simply because it doesn't give out a shiny after an hour or two.

One player's "grind" is another player's "meaningful system".

Systems that took time, effort, and some knowledge are the ones that make an achievement seem meaningful once attained.  That's especially if it was a group effort.

STO's not perfect, but it did get this part right, in my opinion.  Given the obvious interest, it's far from a failure.

By the way, here's another appropriate quote from that thread, from a level-headed CMDRScarlet:

"Ground to a halt? No. 

In a fleet of about 5 players since before S7 our development was already slow. S7 has not increased or decreased our progression at all. My Fleet is in it for the long run as a group. We contribute when we can and if a task is complete then it is. This is what we agreed to in the social contract we made as a group by virtue of making the Fleet and not actively increasing the membership.

From my point of view anybody in a small fleet could (should?) accept that the starbase will not grow at a rate that is noticable from week-to-week. If that is too long then there are really two choices available: 1) stick with it, 2) drop the group and join a bigger Fleet. It's that simple.

The OP has started asking (paraphrased), "Is the Starbase worth it?" That is a question relevant to each person, I think. They are worth it if you feel that way. Nobody has to build a base. No one."

Originally posted by ShardWarrior

Cryptic has to add episodic content to the game before anyone can say it would not keep people engaged.

But, thanks to this thread, we now know for a FACT that the long term systems like Fleet Advancement and Personal Advancement keep people engaged.

For 6 months and counting.

Hardly a failure.  Actually, a success.

[quote]

Originally posted by grounnn

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GOD I LOVE THAT POST! It's the casual gamers and the people who want instant gratification that's the issue. Thank god some people in the industry still understand this! I feel like going back to STO just because of that statement. I love grind, and I love working towards a very long goal, if their team is willing enough to put grind back into their game they're on the right track.

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You are right. These "systems" are so popular, that is why most all MMO developers moved away from them. Yep. Must be a very popular feature.

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Originally posted by Rohn

But, thanks to this thread, we now know for a FACT that the long term systems like Fleet Advancement and Personal Advancement keep people engaged. For 6 months and counting. Hardly a failure.  Actually, a success.

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Actually, the contrary. Folks in larger fleets are saying it is hurting their population, morale, retention and activity in the game. Perhaps in your rose colored fantasy view of what STO is as of late it is a "success", but that is far from reality. These may keep people engaged only because there is nothing else to do in the game.

Just to reiterate, most players appear to agree that they like the content added with Season 6 and 7, they just want it to come faster and easier.

On a side note, balancing also continues to occur, with some changes being made by the patch today.  And there was much rejoicing....

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Originally posted by Rohn
Just to reiterate, most players appear to agree that they like the content added with Season 6 and 7, they just want it to come faster and easier.

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Still waiting for you to link to a post where anyone expressly said "give it to us for free and for no work at all".

Yup. This poster specifically mentions "I want it faster and easier for my small group when they said;

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No, I don't think they should pay less. What I do believe is the costs in both in-game currencies and time need to be looked at to make them more realistic for the majority of the customers.

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On a side note, balancing also continues to occur, with some changes being made by the patch today.  And there was much rejoicing....

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Yes, they are balancing by making it easier to get Fleet Marks and Dilithium because most of the customers were perfectly happy with how things were and did not want it changed. Yup. That is what happened. ::rolleyes::

Originally posted by ShardWarrior

 

Yes, they are balancing by making it easier to get Fleet Marks and Dilithium because most of the customers were perfectly happy with how things were and did not want it changed. Yup. That is what happened. ::rolleyes::

There's a huge difference between systems in a game that are being balanced, and proclaiming them a "failure".  LOL

Again, players like the system.  It's been a success.

Originally posted by ShardWarrior

There has been some discussion here as of late regarding the implementation of "long term systems" , or better known as repetitive (and in some cases time gated) grind content recently added to STO. The debate has been whether or not these were good additions for a content starved game.

I found this very interesting and telling post made over on the official STO forums to share which I believe sums up the issue quite nicely.  The post is from a player who belongs to one of the oldest and (if not the) largest fleets in STO, Jupiter Force.  Those familiar with STO since the beginning will have heard of Jupiter Force as they used to produce the STOked podcast.  Notice the emphasis on used to.   They abandoned the podcast some time ago.

The thread this post appears in deals with a discussion on small fleets suffering under with building their holdings, but I think the post sums up the problem with Season 7 as a whole, as well as the direction STO is going with "long term systems".

To quote the article (Link to original);

 

---

As a large fleet we struggle to find the fleet marks to sustain projects in the haul between Tier IV and Tier V, and that is despite having a hundred characters maxed in DOFFs and 30+ people active everyday. With all the various gated systems in the game, not to mention playstyles, it's simply not possible right now to get enough fleet marks to sustain 3 projects a day unless everyone actively farms fleet marks, and fleets simply can't ask members to do this every day for months and months with no end in sight.

 

...

If it takes a large active fleet like Jupiter Force a month to fill fleet marks on a Starbase upgrade project, I'm sorry but it suggests to me smaller fleets have no shot in hell of filling it in a way that sustains momentum and active engagement with the system by members of small fleets.

---

 

I think this part is what hits the nail on the proverbial head.

 

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The way STO has disconnected players from the various currencies required to pace progress to the content systems in the game is the failure of Season 7, and probably the single best thing STO could do to encourage players to try TOR F2P.

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So for those touting the "long term systems" as being the salvation of STO and "a good thing", pay close attention to posts like this. This is an active fleet of 30+ players on daily who are telling you "this is too much of a grind and it needs to change." This is the difficulty a larger, active group is facing with just Starbases alone, not including Embassy or Omega rep grinding. Just imagine this from the perspective of the small, casual groups.

I agree with the the author, and IMO this is a good indicator as to what is wrong with STO and Season 7's "content" ... and I use the the word content loosely.

I agree 100% two thumbs up.

Originally posted by LilFreezy

Originally posted by Rohn

Originally posted by ShardWarrior

 

Yes, they are balancing by making it easier to get Fleet Marks and Dilithium because most of the customers were perfectly happy with how things were and did not want it changed. Yup. That is what happened. ::rolleyes::

 

There's a huge difference between systems in a game that are being balanced, and proclaiming them a "failure".  LOL

Again, players like the system.  It's been a success.

[mod edit]

[mod edit]

Its not that hard to get fleet marks its not that hard to get dili its not even hard to get the new stuff added. There is a ton of content in this game Story/pve/groups/rep/fleets etc, (notice I didnt mention pvp cause it is fail and to be fair the ONE man team on the pvp stuff I feel sorry for being left solo on such a task).

Ok so the game is not the Perfect Star treckie game. so? 

side note: To anyone who thinks 30 people is a huge active fleet makes me sad sad panda (man that phase sucks after mop thats wow yet again cloning shit). Our fleet is so big atm we have off shoot fleets(4 of them) to hold the less active members.

[mod edit]

There is 7 sets of story's with more then  15+ missions in each that can last an hour or more each thats more the 100 hours of just straight story. Thats not even counting any of the off story missions. Thats more content then most at this point. Not to mention STF's or player made or daily's.

just because you rushed to the end does not mean the game is devoid of content

NOTE:funny the guy I quoted deleted his post

Season 7 is a fail?  That's news to me.

Anyway I don't do fleet stuff.  So if guild stuff is grind and not fun then, okay, but the season is good for me.  The game is fine by me too.  If it stops being fun then I'll stop playing, but it's still fun for me.

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Originally posted by Rohn

Again, players like the system.  It's been a success.

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I think it a bit of a stretch to call the starbase and rep grinding a "success". I wouldn't call it a complete failure, but it certainly isn't a ringing success by any definition. The only reason most seem to be continuing with the rep grind is to satiate the Pokeman mentality and a lack of any other content in the game. Some of the gear you can get is ok, but to be honest there is no content in the game that really calls for it so it's basically pointless to get.