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General Discussion

General Discussion 

News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: How Far is Too Far?

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54 posts found

Novice Member

Joined: 4/04/09
Posts: 471

12/11/12 8:58:37 PM#21
I dislike it when they make you pay for additional classes or quest content like LOTRO. Anything cosmetic is fine but also when they allow you to bye craftable items on the store is a big let down, as I feel it takes away from the in game economy.
  User Deleted
12/11/12 9:18:49 PM#22
We talk about this all the time. I'm sorry but pay to win or pay for advantage is empty. If your playing a game that is not buy to play or sub, then your really just a sucker.

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/12
Posts: 481

12/11/12 9:46:42 PM#23

Too far would be selling perma stat increases.

I don't mind mounts, cosmetics, exp boosters or even temporary stat boosts as long as the stat boosting items (like food or pots) are craftable in the game.

You should never be able to buy anything that isn't cosmetic that you can't get in the game (except for maybe exp boosters and the like), and you should never be able to buy stats. 

I think if you charge for content or classes (like LOTRO) you should be laxer on things like quick travel, bank and inventory space, or at least make the overall prices for items cheaper than average in your marketplace.

Other than that, markets are fine imo, even for sub based games.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3675

12/12/12 12:47:07 AM#24
Originally posted by Yamota

F2P and cash shops are altogether bad. It fosters an environment where it is not your dedication or skills which puts you apart from others but rather also how much you open your wallet. Great for the corps., as they get more money, very bad for us gamers who just want to pay a one time fee and/or sub. and then just enjoy the game.

More over it is inevitable that the devs spend resources on things either directly or indirectly related to the cash shop to squeeze more money from people rather than just improving the game.

It is bad, there is nothing good with it and is only there because of greed and nothing else. It has nothing to do with gaming, at all.

       Theres so much cheating/hacking/botting in so many games now how can you tell who has any skill anyway??


Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/12
Posts: 71

12/12/12 1:07:21 AM#25

I have no problems whatsoever with games that use Pay to Win business models. Anyone having issues with companies using this business model should just stay away from them.


It's really that simple. Gaming companies want to make money, and they're free to decide how they want to make money. As customers we get to choose if we want to play by their rules or not.


Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/10
Posts: 599

12/12/12 1:26:04 AM#26

It differs from implementation to implementation. I love some models, like World of Tanks, where i buy premium for one month if i'm in the mood for playing. I strongly dislike the models where, if you do not play for 2-3 months you fall behind, and it also costs you a few hundreds per month to play.

From the pay to win category, there was no game that i could not stay away from, except Atlantica Online. For me, this game represents an extreme example of what greed means. You need 30 bucks for convenience items every month, and probably a few hundred more if you want to stay competitive (gamble boxes, 10 bucks each, about 1/40 chances to get the item you want - no, i'm not kidding). On the other hand, the game is absolutely fantastic: deep, complex, addictive, probably the game many people would play forever if it had a subscription option.

It is easy to get sucked in, until you realise what's going on, until you figure out that, after you spend those 200 bucks to get that "great" mount, in 2 weeks time a new, better mount is sold, and yours becomes almost worthless. That's why less and less people are playing. I'm really sad that such a gem of a game will die pretty soon just because of Nexon's greed.


Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/11
Posts: 233

12/12/12 1:33:51 AM#27

If it is possible to pay for an advantage over another player then the game is pay to win even if the advantage is small.


Paying money to save time is not pay to win unless it is extremely agregious. (For example some systems allow a in game monster dropper currency to be exchanged for the premium currency by players. So while the rarest items are technically farmable by farming in game currency -> buying the premium currency and buying the item advantage, the ratio to do so is incredibly incredibly high).

Paying money for cosmetic stuff is awesome but there are very very few games that stick to this as the only cash shop category and generally add pay for convience or pay to win.



Novice Member

Joined: 11/14/11
Posts: 891

12/12/12 2:52:53 AM#28

I hear alot of you yelling "burn F2P, kill it, dont support it" and many other things like that.......the fact is most of the gamers (*think) that F2P is actually cheaper then paying 15 bucks a month sub and keep pumping money in those F2P games....they make more money then subbed games do.

* yes they THINK its own expirience here is GW2, GW2 is the first F2P game i even touched and it has me spending about 20 to 30 bucks for stuff instead of the usual 15 a month for a full if you look at it....F2P is more expensive then subs anyways.

ps: i know i dont have to buy keys for chests or dye upgrades but thats what i like (customizing my character) and in GW2 that costs alot of money.



Advanced Member

Joined: 3/28/06
Posts: 1449

12/12/12 7:33:34 AM#29

Pay2Win starts at the beginning.... Want to play the game?  Put down $40 (or lose).

It then moves on to fees...  Want to play the second month?  Put down $15 (or lose).

Lastly it moves on to microtransactions.... want x,y,z?  Put down $5-500 (or lose).


Every game that is monitized is Pay2Win. Those who pay win, those who dont lose. Whenever there is a direct connection between money, and something you receive, this will exist. The only real option is to have 'donations' where they are not tied to anything receivable.







Advanced Member

Joined: 8/25/06
Posts: 1390

12/12/12 8:04:57 AM#30





Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 468

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

12/12/12 11:19:49 AM#31
Pay to win was the most greedy and unbalanced concept to ever be introduced to videogames in human history. All games that have it should be banned from use.

Where's the any key?


Novice Member

Joined: 4/16/06
Posts: 897

12/12/12 11:36:38 AM#32
Originally posted by oubers

I hear alot of you yelling "burn F2P, kill it, dont support it" and many other things like that.......the fact is most of the gamers (*think) that F2P is actually cheaper then paying 15 bucks a month sub and keep pumping money in those F2P games....they make more money then subbed games do.

* yes they THINK its own expirience here is GW2, GW2 is the first F2P game i even touched and it has me spending about 20 to 30 bucks for stuff instead of the usual 15 a month for a full if you look at it....F2P is more expensive then subs anyways.

ps: i know i dont have to buy keys for chests or dye upgrades but thats what i like (customizing my character) and in GW2 that costs alot of money.


 Ultimately tho it is your choice to pay that. I have never spent a cent on a F2P game. If the game becomes unplayable without buying cash shop items, I uninstall and move on. If I ever found a game that sold an item I felt was worth buying, I would have no problem doing so considering it isn't costing me a monthly fee But I will not be coerced with denial of content( LoTRO),  tempted with lockboxes( GW2, Allods), or hampered by gameplay restrictions( TOR, Allods). There are too many MMOs out there to put up with being manipulated into paying for a "free" game.


Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 1

12/12/12 2:06:08 PM#33
I really do hate the P2W formular. One of many reasons I quit Atlantica. Thing Is as more and more MMO's Incorparate the "F2P" model, this kinda thing Is going to get more and more the norm. What makes me laugh though Is people won't pay a sub for a game yet they would rather gamble for a chance to get the new Clothes or mounts which in turns costs way more than a month sub. But thats my 2 cents on the matter.

Novice Member

Joined: 8/29/12
Posts: 1

12/12/12 10:23:34 PM#34
take a look at GW2 you pay $40-$60 for the game then to access the good stuff online you have to pay more...  talk about ripping folks off!

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 2047

12/13/12 12:43:43 AM#35

I'll state as I have been for a long time.    Everytime someone uses the advertising term " F2P "  they are talking about a game that uses the P2W business model. 


I will leave or not even try a game if there is one single item that completely unbalances the game.   Cash shop games just lose their fun as soon as one of those type of items becomes available.   However, it is kind of enjoyable to watch the player base of those games become excited when they first arrive, and then backlash at the publishers within a year after the release of such items. 


Novice Member

Joined: 11/26/06
Posts: 348

DOS 6.22 - fuzzy memories...

12/13/12 7:07:01 AM#36



XP decrease after lvl 10?? F*** you!


Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 1297

12/13/12 12:44:57 PM#37

I actually like the F2P model, in many respects.  No gate for entry means the core game HAS to be good.  Of course, few are...but still you don't have to PAY to find that out.  How they choose to monetize the game beyond that really affects how good this is.  You can't just say "pay for cosmetic" and think that will fly.  It won't.  Most players won't even grind a few hours of time away for cosmetic, even less are gonna PAY for it.  There has to be some tangible, and desireable, thing to pay for.  Now this should NOT be related directly to power.  Your ability to play the core game should be unaffected.  However stuff like plots of land to build on or special vehicles could easily be this. 

 Luna has a good example of this.  You can buy a map item that lets you teleport to areas of the game.  You do not need this item, but its nice.  Its a convienince and its a big one.  But it was a little overpriced.  The issue in most F2P crap is that they don't just want a little money, they actually gun for MORE than subs would be.  Instead they should look at monetizing the "lost" market.  People who would never have subbed, but might drop 1-5 bucks a month in the till.  If you can get that, you've gained something.  instead they want to bleed the paying group by forcing them to spend more than 15$ to compensate those that don't pay.  Its not smart, and there are better ways to do things.


Advanced Member

Joined: 12/11/12
Posts: 65

12/13/12 1:58:49 PM#38

I’m a little surprised the hate and dislike here from some commenters for free-to-play, pay-to-win games.  I also find it funny that most of the complainers are the people who pay nothing to enjoy a game for free.


You realize that game companies are not government welfare agencies right?  They have no obligation to make quality games for free.  They are making games because they think they can create one that people like and then make money off it.  Sorry to hit you with reality but that is how the world works, except for in the heads of a few popular political pundits who would try to make you think otherwise.


The rise of F2p games I has been a huge step forward for online games.  8 years ago when WoW came there were a few major MMOs all with monthly subscriptions, and that was it.  But now look.  There are probably 100+ MMO’s out there and while a lot are junk, quite a few are high quality games.  The choice and selection you have now is awesome compared to the past.


The main advantage of F2p is it is actually better at monetization (than monthly subs) in many ways because it lets people who can and want to pay more to do so, and as a result, allows others who won’t or can’t afford to pay, to play for free.  It’s win-win.   I have a full time job.  I can’t play for 30 hours a week anymore like I could when I was a teenager.  Thus if a game is based purely on grind I will most likely always be behind in the game compared to those with such spare time.   But I’m happy to pay a little more now and then (which I have) to get things like “xp boosts” so that I my scarce time playing is more rewarding in terms of advancement.  As a result of me paying for this the company is now getting revenue and can continue maintaining and developing their game for the enjoyment of all, including the players who pay nothing.


Yes there is a whole debate about pay-to-win, but frankly that is a decision the company has chosen to make.  Not all f2p games are pay-to-win though.  For some the only things you buy are temporary boosts like I mentioned above or unique cosmetic customization.  For these games paying players have no advantage power-wise over free players.  But there is a reason for that, and it’s not just the devs kindness of their hearts.  In games like Fallen Earth, most every item is crafted.  Thus paying players like me actually benefit from a large population of free players who engage in the crafting/mining economy who help supply raw materials and purchase finished items.  Without them the crafting economy would be much less worthwhile and less fun for everyone, including paying players.  But without us paying players, the game wouldn’t exist.  So it’s a symbiotic relationship that opens up such games to a wider player base.


On the other hand if a game is pay-to-win, meaning paying players receive huge power bonuses, then that is just life, deal with it.  Usually these are games where there is little benefit to the paying players from the existence of a large free player base.  This was a purposeful design by the devs.  In these instances the company is usually using the free play method as an alternative means of a “trial gameplay” or demo.  Hence free players in these games were never meant to be on equal footing, they were just given a much longer time to try the game out to see if they like it.


Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6444

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

12/13/12 4:01:50 PM#39
Originally posted by Zekiah


Just stop supporting these rip-off projects and things will change.

What do you really think will change?

Seriously all this against F2P/Cashshop doesn't really make any sense.

Let's look at pure sub based games, don't people know there are thousands and thousands of 3rd party websites that offers items, gold and what not.

People seem to forget that companies just want that money instead of that money goes "nowhere" near the game or it's company.

Most (gamecompany's and gamers alike) got fed up with those 3rd party websites, which logicaly turned this genre in what we see today with F2P + Cashshops.

Sure as a gamer I don't like it and do not use cashshops or itemshops, but still rather see a gamecompany make money of their own game then some third party illegal website getting money with no ingame return revenue. Obviously it is very usefull for a certain type of person who wants it all and wants it now since it's legit and they don't have to jump all sorts of illegal hoops to get what they want.

Or perhaps people are really that naieve to think that sub-based MMORPG don't have pay to win options, regardless if one uses it illegal.

The excuses used to make use of cashshop also from a gamers perspective for me personaly don't make allot of sense, myself hardly any gametime during the week, sometimes not even in the weekend, yet I never considered using a cashshop, main reason is that normaly a MMORPG goes on for years. Got all the time in the world to get to max lvl, why should I try do this in a few day's or weeks. I already play so many other games in other genre's that are pretty short to play. Don't need my MMORPG experiance to be the same as those . But hey that's me and doesn't mean I am right nor wrong.

And yes I am guilty too at feeling bad for games with cashshops, but then I just think about that it alway's has exsisted, though illegal, it still alway's has been there never the less.

You see in the past (old school) most common complaint was about spammers, goldsellers, while occasionnaly we still see them, they are less "populair" then today's F2P/Cashshop topics. I am sure will F2P not make it and/or disappear (unlikely I know) but then I am sure we get back at complaining about spammers/goldsellers in our games.


Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1880

12/15/12 12:22:56 AM#40

Browser games are on their own level with cash shops. I didn't fall victime to it but I feel bad for the people who did. For me the game that woke me up on browser based cash shops was Evony. Because of the free for all nature it was in at the beginning, the crazy, stupid zerging and the elimination system that left every server dead and in ruins inside a few weeks, I saw how stupid it was to put any money in that game.

I spent money on Need for Speed World just a few weeks ago. I don't feel wronged about that. Those cars are mine, mine as long as the servers are up. LotRO cash shop items have similar benefits. If I crank my stats up using cash shop buffs, I can increase my base health and power accordingly and those things stay with me. Those games are PvE. If I want to do that, other people can piss off.

Something like EVE Online, sure I could buy 10 plex, have enough to fit 10 or 15 battle cruisers but in EVE? It's pay to lose because you will still get face rolled if you don't know what you are doing.

All in all it's all good. Use smarts when deciding though. Whats good cash shop investments, whats a waste of time.

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