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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » More of the same, again.

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45 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

12/10/12 5:32:35 AM#21
Where are you getting 50 levels of wow questing thing from?

From what they've said the quests will be similar to skyrim, less of them but bigger, the other games that sprang to mind in their description were tsw (the less but bigger thing) , gw2 (events and stuff) and how quests in war were supposed to work, but didnt in the end (you kill 30 wolves on your way somewhere, you just hand it in to the guy who would have given you a quest)

Lol anyone else remember the Paul barnet hype machine on that one then the sudden wtf where Is it at launch?
  Aeolron

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 664

Everyones a mmo vet these days :P

12/10/12 5:34:28 AM#22
Originally posted by Niburu

Sad truth is than Darkfall Online feels more like a TES online than the actual TESO.

 

A company with 10 could do that while a company of 100's can create there own product and has to copy.

sad

 

huge seemingless open world ? no

free character skill system ? no

first/third person mouse aiming? nope

GuildWars2 with an TES Mod ? yes

How can you say that Dark fall online ( which was a terrible game btw ) feels more like a TES when TESO is'nt even out yet? Man oh man people like you really do try do you? Heres an idea, stop speculating and play the damn thing when it comes out, because now you just look foolish.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2734

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/10/12 7:41:26 AM#23
Originally posted by Niburu

Sad truth is than Darkfall Online feels more like a TES online than the actual TESO.

 

A company with 10 could do that while a company of 100's can create there own product and has to copy.

sad

 

huge seemingless open world ? no

free character skill system ? no

first/third person mouse aiming? nope

GuildWars2 with an TES Mod ? yes

Darkfall feels more like trash with piss poor aniamtions, total griefing gankfest and no sense of exploration in a PvE world.  Tell me when was the last Elder Scrolls Game to feature consentual PvP let alone FFA full loot PvP.

 

Just because a game inludes a hardcore feature does not automatically make it similar to TES!

 

huge seemingless open world ? YES, 3 different factions with huge zones to explore each about the size of 1 WoW continent from some estimations.  Along with a mega huge zone in Cryodill which features open PvP

free character skill system ? YES, jsut because their are character classes doesnt mean that each is cookie cutter.  The ability to wear any armor or equip any weapon and grow with that is as close to being classless based as one can get.

first/third person mouse aiming? You live in a rock or do you jsut parrot the standard crap you hear without doing a modicum of research.  ESO will feature 1st and 3rd person reticule based combat which is EXACTLY like the single player games.

GuildWars2 with an TES Mod ? Not hardly, while it has some similarities with GW2 (namely limited hotbar) it doesnt feature none of the important things that make GW2, GW2 such as Dynamic Events, Weapon switching, removal of the trinity, down scaling, rigid weapon skills, bland utility skills or any other similarity that matters on the surface.

 

 

 

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  LhynnSaint

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/11
Posts: 122

12/10/12 9:23:21 AM#24
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Niburu

Sad truth is than Darkfall Online feels more like a TES online than the actual TESO.

 

A company with 10 could do that while a company of 100's can create there own product and has to copy.

sad

 

huge seemingless open world ? no

free character skill system ? no

first/third person mouse aiming? nope

GuildWars2 with an TES Mod ? yes

Darkfall feels more like trash with piss poor aniamtions, total griefing gankfest and no sense of exploration in a PvE world.  Tell me when was the last Elder Scrolls Game to feature consentual PvP let alone FFA full loot PvP.

 

Just because a game inludes a hardcore feature does not automatically make it similar to TES!

 

huge seemingless open world ? YES, 3 different factions with huge zones to explore each about the size of 1 WoW continent from some estimations.  Along with a mega huge zone in Cryodill which features open PvP

free character skill system ? YES, jsut because their are character classes doesnt mean that each is cookie cutter.  The ability to wear any armor or equip any weapon and grow with that is as close to being classless based as one can get.

first/third person mouse aiming? You live in a rock or do you jsut parrot the standard crap you hear without doing a modicum of research.  ESO will feature 1st and 3rd person reticule based combat which is EXACTLY like the single player games.

GuildWars2 with an TES Mod ? Not hardly, while it has some similarities with GW2 (namely limited hotbar) it doesnt feature none of the important things that make GW2, GW2 such as Dynamic Events, Weapon switching, removal of the trinity, down scaling, rigid weapon skills, bland utility skills or any other similarity that matters on the surface.

Does that mean you can max out every skill in the game like you could in any other TES game?

Can you raid cities? steal from any npc you find? Will it be cinematics free? Can you kill the boss of the dungeon by sneaking without ever having to confront him? Will you be able to design your own spells? What about your own magic items? will the npcs have their own lives?

Can you kill people for their stuff? live as a bandit, hide in the forest? can you attack enemies fortress without having to go and ask permision from an NPC? and do i own said fortress if i sucess?

why do i have to pick a faction? can i just say "screw it" and start attaking my own faction? can you get an argonian maid to polish your spear?

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2639

110100100

12/10/12 2:31:43 PM#25


Originally posted by dotdotdash
Earlier today I decided to bite the bullet and watch the latest TESO teaser trailer. I went in expecting a video designed to lure me in with tidbits about the games "many and varied" ways to acquire gear; low and behold, that's what I got. Behind all of the gimmicky nonsense and developer nonspeak there lies a reality that many probably don't want to admit: The Elder Scrolls Online is more of the same, again.

At the start of the video Matt Firor - a veteran MMO developer (which is as much a problem as it is a boon) - makes a startlingly ignorant and highly amusing comment to the effect of, "The Elder Scrolls Online is designed to bring fans of The Elder Scrolls together with fans of the MMORPG genre." In one breathe, Matt Firor goes from being an educated, respected and knowledgable MMO developer to a man who knows very little about the franchise he's working with. You see, there may be SOME TES fans out there that have never played an MMO, and there may be SOME MMO fans out there that have never played TES... but they are few and far between. There is a HUGE amount of cross over between the two communities, so suggesting that they are diametrically opposed and are in need of some cupid-style matchmaking is baffling at best. In reality, Firor knows this to be the case... and it's probably true that this is just poor marketing speech that wasn't really thought through before it was scripted, but still... If you're going to make bold claims about your target audience, try to make them abstract enough that they can't lead to your mocking dismissal.

Anyway...

The game looks "alright", in the sense that every MMO since WoW has looked "alright". The graphics are, as we have come to expect, a compomise between the system-breaking attempts at photo-realism present in Skyrim, and the system-friendly cartoonisms of World of Warcraft. To be expect, for sure, but I would very much like it if a major MMO developer would define their own art direction, as opposed to simply upscaling slightly on what Blizzard is offering. The video CLEARLY display the SAME harsh lines and uninspiring colour pallette (if a little larger) as WoW has displayed for the last 8 years, and no amount of throwing watered down Skyrim textures into the mix is likely to hide this. It seems to me that the art department's remit was simply "make Skyrim look like WoW... or the other way round...". They've done a great job at that, but it's not really inspired me to any degree. At all.

The lore and history of The Elder Scrolls is perhaps unrivalled in it volume (and, perhaps, it quality). Between Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim there is a wealth of great lore pieces that could be used to great effect in TESO, so I'm thoroughly glad to see them going all out in that direction. The problem I have here comes down to something I'll discuss a little more later on: MMO compromises. It's become a trend in the genre to retcon and compromise on lore in order to make certain situations in game more... "believable"? World of Warcraft is famous for its habit of taking worthwhile storylines from the RTS games and novels of old, and watering them down so that they can fit the key characters and plot points into the dungeon and raid equation. The Elder Scrolls Online has both dungeons and raids, so my worry is quite reasonable: when, where and how arre ZeniMax Online going to compromise on the lore of TES in order to make it fit an MMO environment? There will be those who'll say it won't happen, just like there were those who said it wouldn't happen to LotRo, WAR, AoC and SWTOR; in all cases... they were wrong, and it did happen. We can only presume it's going to happen in TESO as well. FOR SHAME.

At this point, I just get his horrible feeling that TESO is a typical MMO - ala WoW - with some "Skyrim" gimmicks thrown in for good measure. The combat system, for example, hasn't really been outlined or demonstrated in great details, but from the video footage I saw today... it really does look like a standard "lock and cast" system with directional attacks, similar in nature to Guild Wars 2. Simply having sneaking does not an Elder Scrolls combat system make, yet it feels like that's really all ZMO have to do to make it feel like a TES game. Throw in some directional attacks and shiled blocking, and it doesn't really matter what else they do with the combat, right? Wrong. Even from the little footage displayed, it's clear at this point that the combat system we're getting in TESO is not a combat system deeply rooted in the TES tradition of a more "FPS" style RPG ruleset. Again, FOR SHAME.

Despite ZMO's claims that TESO is "different" from all other MMOs, they peddled the same elements that all other MMOs peddle when trying to be different - crafting, raiding, dungeons, questing, PvP. They all sounded eerily familiar, yet the developers seemed to be trying to make them sound wildly different. Questing, for example, is ultimately the same affair in TESO that it is in WoW; the only difference is that Blizzard organises quest givers into neat little packages, where TESO wants you to run around like a headless chicken. PvP is, again, exactly the same as in Guild Wars 2, or the more open zonal PvP in World of Warcraft. It all just sounds very, very, very samey to me.

Matt Firor again made a cracking comment: "The game opens up at level 50." This single statement implies that yet again we will be thrown onto an endgame gear treadmill, and expected to raid constantly to progress. Why can't the game open up at... say... level 1?????!!!!! Is that too obvious, or unreasonable, or what? In neither Oblivion nor Skyrim did I feel compelled to level. Levels were just this thing that happened as I moved through the game world, yet my experience was not hampered by ever having to be a particular level to get particular things done. In TESO, the opposite is true: you will have to level to move forward, and once you hit cap... the game will let you do all of the things you want to do. The same applies to armour: in Skyrim I crafted armour when I wanted to, but there was never any overt need to do so. In TESO, gear is important... and the video seems to imply that in order to get anywhere, or compete against other players, you'll have to get that gear.

Also, I DON'T CARE ONE JOT ABOUT "MEGASERVER" OR THE TECH BEHIND IT. If the game places me in a community I like, that is numerous and vibrant, I will be happy. If it does not, I will complain. Outside of that, I couldn't give a flying rats wings what the system that places me is called or how it works. It's not part of the game. It's a peripheral service. Like most consumers, I don't take my car to get repaired on the provision that the mechanic explains in detail how he's going to repair it. I just take it there broken, pick it up fixed, and that's enough for me.

So yeah... TESO looks lame. SWTOR lame. If they charge a sub fee for it, it'll sink like a brick tied to several other bricks. If they don't charge a sub fee for it, it'll sink just before it makes land off the island of prosperity (sort of like what Guild Wars 2 is doing). Either way, the game looks utterly and totally rubbish in almost all regards.

As I said at the start... Matt Firor is a veteran MMO developer (famed for DAOC I believe). In this instance, that's like saying you got the guy who invented the bicycle to build a car... because he's an expert in wheels. Matt Firor comes across as an ignorant developer, entrenched in a development philosophy that should have died out years ago.

Done.


just give up on playing MMO's. you and people like you will never be happy again.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

12/10/12 2:49:43 PM#26
Actually I don't think there is this massive cross over of people that play skyrim and people that play mmos.

Skyrim has sold more than double the copies on pc on the consoles. And you don't get mmos on consoles.
  Latronus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 718

PC is not political correctness, it means Political Cowardice!

12/10/12 3:03:07 PM#27
Originally posted by MrMongoose30

you know its a MMO to right? what did you expect them to do without the hotbar...10,000 players with a pause function to pick spells and ability's? I don't know why but I just don't think that would work.... I'm not even sure what other point's you were trying to make, the game isn't called Skyrim CoOp. It's a MMO you can't do things in a MMO that you can in a single player game.

STOP MAKING SENSE!   How dare you state the obvious.  Oh, and you know that it's a WoW clone too right, because its an MMO and everyone knows that WoW created the MMO genre. 

You know what, these people want to judge a game and decide they hate it before they ever give it a try...  Then let them.  It could be a complete disaster or a complete success.  I'm going to wait and see and judge for myself after it goed live.

  Farstryder

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/07
Posts: 70

The word cornucopia comes to mind.

12/10/12 3:07:53 PM#28
Originally posted by thexrated

The fact is that you people need to start to set your expectations more realistically. WoW is WoW. It does not seem that another MMO can emulate that success or longevity . Everquest 1 is on it's 18 expansion but nooone can match WoW longevity right. However, that does not mean that other MMOs cannot be enjoyable. I enjoyed SWTOR for few months. I have read that many have enjoyed GW2 and The Secret World for few months. That seems to be the trend. Play a game for few months and move along until a major content patch or expansions. I see nothing wrong with this. The market has changed and the player base has become more diverse.

These days we have a number of relatively good MMOs. This was not the case back when WoW launced. We had Ultima Online, Everquest, Everquest 2, Anarchy Online, EVE and Star Wars Galaxies (and few others small games). All were niche games with dedicated, but small player base. WoW brought MMOs to mainstream gaming by seriously cutting down the tediousness of MMOs. Thanks to the success of WoW, we have more new titles and expansions released every year.  

I am going to play TESO, but I am not expecting to stay with it more than few months. I am sure that I will have fun.

....Hate to break the subject matter but all the WoW comments are killing me. Is every hamburger made compared to a Mcdonalds hamburger....cause they were the first one to make it right........I could be wrong but I believe people still play Asherons,Ultima,Everquest 1 & 2 all wich came out before WoW.  WoW copied half of it's original content and features from Eq2 right down to the wailing caverns.(<< this last statement doesn not refer to  the basic play itself but to content matter  quests,skills and so on).

Farstryder,

  deakon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

12/10/12 4:14:36 PM#29
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Actually I don't think there is this massive cross over of people that play skyrim and people that play mmos.

Skyrim has sold more than double the copies on pc on the consoles. And you don't get mmos on consoles.

That meens very little

 

Most people own both pc and at least one console, people prefer consoles because they are standard, easy, plug in and play, no settings to worry about, no upgrades needed, its simply ease of use, if theres a cross platform game most people will favour console, that doesnt meen they wont play a pc game or a mmo (just look at how well starcraft 2 sold), but they will go for the path of least resistance and that is always going to be console

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

12/10/12 4:16:52 PM#30
If you own a pc and a console why the hell would you buy skyrim for the console and miss out on steamworks?
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

12/10/12 4:18:45 PM#31
Oh and also pay £10 / $15 dollar more for less game?
  deakon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

12/10/12 4:30:33 PM#32
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Oh and also pay £10 / $15 dollar more for less game?

I did it with Oblivion because of the simple fact that a console is garunteed to run the game well without having to spend a while tweaking (which if your not an avid pc gamer isnt as simple as it is for you or I), or needing an upgrade (which i did a the time), still to this day havent got a copy of tes4 on the pc, yet I had played CoH, GW, WoW etc at the time

 

I can tell you for a fact that MOST houses these days have at least 1 pc and if theres an exclusive thats good enough it will sell well

  thexrated

Novice Member

Joined: 11/26/04
Posts: 1379

12/10/12 4:57:28 PM#33
Originally posted by Farstryder
Originally posted by thexrated

The fact is that you people need to start to set your expectations more realistically. WoW is WoW. It does not seem that another MMO can emulate that success or longevity . Everquest 1 is on it's 18 expansion but nooone can match WoW longevity right. However, that does not mean that other MMOs cannot be enjoyable. I enjoyed SWTOR for few months. I have read that many have enjoyed GW2 and The Secret World for few months. That seems to be the trend. Play a game for few months and move along until a major content patch or expansions. I see nothing wrong with this. The market has changed and the player base has become more diverse.

These days we have a number of relatively good MMOs. This was not the case back when WoW launced. We had Ultima Online, Everquest, Everquest 2, Anarchy Online, EVE and Star Wars Galaxies (and few others small games). All were niche games with dedicated, but small player base. WoW brought MMOs to mainstream gaming by seriously cutting down the tediousness of MMOs. Thanks to the success of WoW, we have more new titles and expansions released every year.  

I am going to play TESO, but I am not expecting to stay with it more than few months. I am sure that I will have fun.

....Hate to break the subject matter but all the WoW comments are killing me. Is every hamburger made compared to a Mcdonalds hamburger....cause they were the first one to make it right........I could be wrong but I believe people still play Asherons,Ultima,Everquest 1 & 2 all wich came out before WoW.  WoW copied half of it's original content and features from Eq2 right down to the wailing caverns.(<< this last statement doesn not refer to  the basic play itself but to content matter  quests,skills and so on).

You are right. Blizzard did not really innovate with WoW unless you talk about bringing MMOs to mainstream by making them less time consuming. Blizzard cut down the tedious parts from the previous generation of MMOs. People loved the explorable open world with tons of handholing in the form of quests. Also, lots of people that worked or alpha tested the classic WoW were EQ players.


I knew someone would pick up on the longevity thing, should have been clearer. What I ment about longevity is that these days people jump from game to game, they do not stay with a single game for years. The good thing is that most MMOs can operate with a relately small players base.  While EQ is still around, even on its hayday, it only had a fraction of players that WoW has had for years. No other game has been able to emulate that longevity (retain or renew a large player base) or success (increasing its player over many years steadily). Even EVEs success is nothing in comparison.

You can still play and have fun in all those games you mentioned, which is great, but I personally prefer to try new titles. Never was a fan of EQ, but I have tried to go back to Anarchy Online and Ultima Online few times. Both simply feel too dated and tedious for me. I even did a short beta session on the latest WoW expansion (having missed Cataclysm), but logged out before level ten.

My problem with all these types of threads is that people expect something earth shattering that would provide the longevity and have similar success to WoW. I doubt that it will happen in near future. I am not expecting much from the next generation of MMOs. However, if you are willing to jump genres, there are some interesting games coming out in the next few years.

 

 

 

"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2734

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/10/12 5:03:08 PM#34
Originally posted by thexrated
Originally posted by Farstryder
Originally posted by thexrated

The fact is that you people need to start to set your expectations more realistically. WoW is WoW. It does not seem that another MMO can emulate that success or longevity . Everquest 1 is on it's 18 expansion but nooone can match WoW longevity right. However, that does not mean that other MMOs cannot be enjoyable. I enjoyed SWTOR for few months. I have read that many have enjoyed GW2 and The Secret World for few months. That seems to be the trend. Play a game for few months and move along until a major content patch or expansions. I see nothing wrong with this. The market has changed and the player base has become more diverse.

These days we have a number of relatively good MMOs. This was not the case back when WoW launced. We had Ultima Online, Everquest, Everquest 2, Anarchy Online, EVE and Star Wars Galaxies (and few others small games). All were niche games with dedicated, but small player base. WoW brought MMOs to mainstream gaming by seriously cutting down the tediousness of MMOs. Thanks to the success of WoW, we have more new titles and expansions released every year.  

I am going to play TESO, but I am not expecting to stay with it more than few months. I am sure that I will have fun.

....Hate to break the subject matter but all the WoW comments are killing me. Is every hamburger made compared to a Mcdonalds hamburger....cause they were the first one to make it right........I could be wrong but I believe people still play Asherons,Ultima,Everquest 1 & 2 all wich came out before WoW.  WoW copied half of it's original content and features from Eq2 right down to the wailing caverns.(<< this last statement doesn not refer to  the basic play itself but to content matter  quests,skills and so on).

You are right. Blizzard did not really innovate with WoW unless you talk about bringing MMOs to mainstream by making them less time consuming. Blizzard cut down the tedious parts from the previous generation of MMOs. People loved the explorable open world with tons of handholing in the form of quests. Also, lots of people that worked or alpha tested the classic WoW were EQ players.


I knew someone would pick up on the longevity thing, should have been clearer. What I ment about longevity is that these days people jump from game to game, they do not stay with a single game for years. The good thing is that most MMOs can operate with a relately small players base.  While EQ is still around, even on its hayday, it only had a fraction of players that WoW has had for years. No other game has been able to emulate that longevity (retain or renew a large player base) or success (increasing its player over many years steadily). Even EVEs success is nothing in comparison.

You can still play and have fun in all those games you mentioned, which is great, but I personally prefer to try new titles. Never was a fan of EQ, but I have tried to go back to Anarchy Online and Ultima Online few times. Both simply feel too dated and tedious for me. I even did a short beta session on the latest WoW expansion (having missed Cataclysm), but logged out before level ten.

My problem with all these types of threads is that people expect something earth shattering that would provide the longevity and have similar success to WoW. I doubt that it will happen in near future. I am not expecting much from the next generation of MMOs. However, if you are willing to jump genres, there are some interesting games coming out in the next few years.

 

 

 

back then longevity wasnt an issue because there were less then a handful of games to contend with.  today we have 3-4 MMO's releasing every year that are in the Triple A category so for someone who enjoys a new experience theres nothign wrong with trying your hand at some if not msot of them. 

 

The days of sticking with an MMO longterm is finally in the mirror where it belongs.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Zeeraha

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/07/12
Posts: 65

12/11/12 6:58:44 AM#35

I share oppinion with OP. I am huge TES concept fan, I played Oblivion and decided not to play Skyrim only because it is not MMO. What would attrackt me to ESO is whole TES concept brought to MMO surroundings. When I saw that ESO will be released, I had my hopes high for true TES concept MMO. But what I see from all ZOS announancements and gameplay videos, it is like someone brought general MMO concept to TES surroundings. They managed to present this game (in my eyes at least) like it is advanced WoW (or GW2) with TES lore.

TES is designed as FPV combat sandbox with great amount of freedom in world where you can explore wherever and whenever you like, do some illegal stuff (and they implemented legal suppression), pickup stuff from ground, pick locks, ride or steal horses, try killing who ever you like, be an outlaw, join different guilds etc. What they made out of ESO is to remove all of those freedoms in sake of implementing general MMO mechanics which should protect each player from each other, but actually secluding them from streamed world. Instead, they could implement existing TES law mechanics that can give freedom, but at great cost of being outlaw. ZOS  is implementing old boring MMO design of entertaining people with questing, leveling up and equipment grind with emulating freedom on Cyrodil continent where you can be "free" to fight against preset alliances. All of mentioned has been done on other MMOs, its nothing special and at the same time all core TES design is removed, so who will play this game? Can this MMO concept attract and keep TES fans? Can it attract general MMO population not familliar with TES gameplay concept?

I played Oblivion for freedom it gave, non linearity and FPV twitch based combat (not to mention great mods). From all announcements I can see ESO brought next to nothing of original TES design, not even FPV twitch based combat.

Maybe ZOS will surprise me, I hope so, but what they are presenting now is nothing that resembles TES, IMO.

  User Deleted
12/11/12 7:04:31 AM#36
The OP goes out of his way to take elements of the video and spin them in the worst possible light.  He, amazingly, does this without really saying anything new or different than what has already been said by other naysayers of the game.
  Rollcage8

Novice Member

Joined: 3/29/12
Posts: 62

12/11/12 7:10:18 AM#37
Originally posted by Zeeraha

I share oppinion with OP. I am huge TES concept fan, I played Oblivion and decided not to play Skyrim only because it is not MMO. What would attrackt me to ESO is whole TES concept brought to MMO surroundings. When I saw that ESO will be released, I had my hopes high for true TES concept MMO. But what I see from all ZOS announancements and gameplay videos, it is like someone brought general MMO concept to TES surroundings. They managed to present this game (in my eyes at least) like it is advanced WoW (or GW2) with TES lore.

TES is designed as FPV combat sandbox with great amount of freedom in world where you can explore wherever and whenever you like, do some illegal stuff (and they implemented legal suppression), pickup stuff from ground, pick locks, ride or steal horses, try killing who ever you like, be an outlaw, join different guilds etc. What they made out of ESO is to remove all of those freedoms in sake of implementing general MMO mechanics which should protect each player from each other, but actually secluding them from streamed world. Instead, they could implement existing TES law mechanics that can give freedom, but at great cost of being outlaw. ZOS  is implementing old boring MMO design of entertaining people with questing, leveling up and equipment grind with emulating freedom on Cyrodil continent where you can be "free" to fight against preset alliances. All of mentioned has been done on other MMOs, its nothing special and at the same time all core TES design is removed, so who will play this game? Can this MMO concept attract and keep TES fans? Can it attract general MMO population not familliar with TES gameplay concept?

I played Oblivion for freedom it gave, non linearity and FPV twitch based combat (not to mention great mods). From all announcements I can see ESO brought next to nothing of original TES design, not even FPV twitch based combat.

Maybe ZOS will surprise me, I hope so, but what they are presenting now is nothing that resembles TES, IMO.

 

  Farstryder

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/07
Posts: 70

The word cornucopia comes to mind.

12/11/12 9:24:17 AM#38
Originally posted by thexrated
Originally posted by Farstryder
Originally posted by thexrated

The fact is that you people need to start to set your expectations more realistically. WoW is WoW. It does not seem that another MMO can emulate that success or longevity . Everquest 1 is on it's 18 expansion but nooone can match WoW longevity right. However, that does not mean that other MMOs cannot be enjoyable. I enjoyed SWTOR for few months. I have read that many have enjoyed GW2 and The Secret World for few months. That seems to be the trend. Play a game for few months and move along until a major content patch or expansions. I see nothing wrong with this. The market has changed and the player base has become more diverse.

These days we have a number of relatively good MMOs. This was not the case back when WoW launced. We had Ultima Online, Everquest, Everquest 2, Anarchy Online, EVE and Star Wars Galaxies (and few others small games). All were niche games with dedicated, but small player base. WoW brought MMOs to mainstream gaming by seriously cutting down the tediousness of MMOs. Thanks to the success of WoW, we have more new titles and expansions released every year.  

I am going to play TESO, but I am not expecting to stay with it more than few months. I am sure that I will have fun.

....Hate to break the subject matter but all the WoW comments are killing me. Is every hamburger made compared to a Mcdonalds hamburger....cause they were the first one to make it right........I could be wrong but I believe people still play Asherons,Ultima,Everquest 1 & 2 all wich came out before WoW.  WoW copied half of it's original content and features from Eq2 right down to the wailing caverns.(<< this last statement doesn not refer to  the basic play itself but to content matter  quests,skills and so on).

You are right. Blizzard did not really innovate with WoW unless you talk about bringing MMOs to mainstream by making them less time consuming. Blizzard cut down the tedious parts from the previous generation of MMOs. People loved the explorable open world with tons of handholing in the form of quests. Also, lots of people that worked or alpha tested the classic WoW were EQ players.


I knew someone would pick up on the longevity thing, should have been clearer. What I ment about longevity is that these days people jump from game to game, they do not stay with a single game for years. The good thing is that most MMOs can operate with a relately small players base.  While EQ is still around, even on its hayday, it only had a fraction of players that WoW has had for years. No other game has been able to emulate that longevity (retain or renew a large player base) or success (increasing its player over many years steadily). Even EVEs success is nothing in comparison.

You can still play and have fun in all those games you mentioned, which is great, but I personally prefer to try new titles. Never was a fan of EQ, but I have tried to go back to Anarchy Online and Ultima Online few times. Both simply feel too dated and tedious for me. I even did a short beta session on the latest WoW expansion (having missed Cataclysm), but logged out before level ten.

My problem with all these types of threads is that people expect something earth shattering that would provide the longevity and have similar success to WoW. I doubt that it will happen in near future. I am not expecting much from the next generation of MMOs. However, if you are willing to jump genres, there are some interesting games coming out in the next few years.

 

Ah, sorry about the misunderstanding. Yes your right pure numbers that have been subscribed for so long you are correct. I think it's a mistake for everygame to be expected to reach even close to those number much less keep them . When  WoW came out there wasnt a new MMO coming out every month to sap numbers away. I honestly believe despite the original wow wich was an amazing game to be the product of a very, very, fortunate release . The right release at the right time.

 

 

 

 

Farstryder,

  Betaguy

Elite Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 2634

Some folks are like Slinkies, totally useless but great fun to watch when pushed down stairs

12/11/12 9:32:56 AM#39
Originally posted by dotdotdash

Earlier today I decided to bite the bullet and watch the latest TESO teaser trailer. I went in expecting a video designed to lure me in with tidbits about the games "many and varied" ways to acquire gear; low and behold, that's what I got. Behind all of the gimmicky nonsense and developer nonspeak there lies a reality that many probably don't want to admit: The Elder Scrolls Online is more of the same, again.

At the start of the video Matt Firor - a veteran MMO developer (which is as much a problem as it is a boon) - makes a startlingly ignorant and highly amusing comment to the effect of, "The Elder Scrolls Online is designed to bring fans of The Elder Scrolls together with fans of the MMORPG genre." In one breathe, Matt Firor goes from being an educated, respected and knowledgable MMO developer to a man who knows very little about the franchise he's working with. You see, there may be SOME TES fans out there that have never played an MMO, and there may be SOME MMO fans out there that have never played TES... but they are few and far between. There is a HUGE amount of cross over between the two communities, so suggesting that they are diametrically opposed and are in need of some cupid-style matchmaking is baffling at best. In reality, Firor knows this to be the case... and it's probably true that this is just poor marketing speech that wasn't really thought through before it was scripted, but still... If you're going to make bold claims about your target audience, try to make them abstract enough that they can't lead to your mocking dismissal.

Anyway...

The game looks "alright", in the sense that every MMO since WoW has looked "alright". The graphics are, as we have come to expect, a compomise between the system-breaking attempts at photo-realism present in Skyrim, and the system-friendly cartoonisms of World of Warcraft. To be expect, for sure, but I would very much like it if a major MMO developer would define their own art direction, as opposed to simply upscaling slightly on what Blizzard is offering. The video CLEARLY display the SAME harsh lines and uninspiring colour pallette (if a little larger) as WoW has displayed for the last 8 years, and no amount of throwing watered down Skyrim textures into the mix is likely to hide this. It seems to me that the art department's remit was simply "make Skyrim look like WoW... or the other way round...". They've done a great job at that, but it's not really inspired me to any degree. At all.

The lore and history of The Elder Scrolls is perhaps unrivalled in it volume (and, perhaps, it quality). Between Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim there is a wealth of great lore pieces that could be used to great effect in TESO, so I'm thoroughly glad to see them going all out in that direction. The problem I have here comes down to something I'll discuss a little more later on: MMO compromises. It's become a trend in the genre to retcon and compromise on lore in order to make certain situations in game more... "believable"? World of Warcraft is famous for its habit of taking worthwhile storylines from the RTS games and novels of old, and watering them down so that they can fit the key characters and plot points into the dungeon and raid equation. The Elder Scrolls Online has both dungeons and raids, so my worry is quite reasonable: when, where and how arre ZeniMax Online going to compromise on the lore of TES in order to make it fit an MMO environment? There will be those who'll say it won't happen, just like there were those who said it wouldn't happen to LotRo, WAR, AoC and SWTOR; in all cases... they were wrong, and it did happen. We can only presume it's going to happen in TESO as well. FOR SHAME.

At this point, I just get his horrible feeling that TESO is a typical MMO - ala WoW - with some "Skyrim" gimmicks thrown in for good measure. The combat system, for example, hasn't really been outlined or demonstrated in great details, but from the video footage I saw today... it really does look like a standard "lock and cast" system with directional attacks, similar in nature to Guild Wars 2. Simply having sneaking does not an Elder Scrolls combat system make, yet it feels like that's really all ZMO have to do to make it feel like a TES game. Throw in some directional attacks and shiled blocking, and it doesn't really matter what else they do with the combat, right? Wrong. Even from the little footage displayed, it's clear at this point that the combat system we're getting in TESO is not a combat system deeply rooted in the TES tradition of a more "FPS" style RPG ruleset. Again, FOR SHAME.

Despite ZMO's claims that TESO is "different" from all other MMOs, they peddled the same elements that all other MMOs peddle when trying to be different - crafting, raiding, dungeons, questing, PvP. They all sounded eerily familiar, yet the developers seemed to be trying to make them sound wildly different. Questing, for example, is ultimately the same affair in TESO that it is in WoW; the only difference is that Blizzard organises quest givers into neat little packages, where TESO wants you to run around like a headless chicken. PvP is, again, exactly the same as in Guild Wars 2, or the more open zonal PvP in World of Warcraft. It all just sounds very, very, very samey to me.

Matt Firor again made a cracking comment: "The game opens up at level 50." This single statement implies that yet again we will be thrown onto an endgame gear treadmill, and expected to raid constantly to progress. Why can't the game open up at... say... level 1?????!!!!! Is that too obvious, or unreasonable, or what? In neither Oblivion nor Skyrim did I feel compelled to level. Levels were just this thing that happened as I moved through the game world, yet my experience was not hampered by ever having to be a particular level to get particular things done. In TESO, the opposite is true: you will have to level to move forward, and once you hit cap... the game will let you do all of the things you want to do. The same applies to armour: in Skyrim I crafted armour when I wanted to, but there was never any overt need to do so. In TESO, gear is important... and the video seems to imply that in order to get anywhere, or compete against other players, you'll have to get that gear.

Also, I DON'T CARE ONE JOT ABOUT "MEGASERVER" OR THE TECH BEHIND IT. If the game places me in a community I like, that is numerous and vibrant, I will be happy. If it does not, I will complain. Outside of that, I couldn't give a flying rats wings what the system that places me is called or how it works. It's not part of the game. It's a peripheral service. Like most consumers, I don't take my car to get repaired on the provision that the mechanic explains in detail how he's going to repair it. I just take it there broken, pick it up fixed, and that's enough for me.

So yeah... TESO looks lame. SWTOR lame. If they charge a sub fee for it, it'll sink like a brick tied to several other bricks. If they don't charge a sub fee for it, it'll sink just before it makes land off the island of prosperity (sort of like what Guild Wars 2 is doing). Either way, the game looks utterly and totally rubbish in almost all regards.

As I said at the start... Matt Firor is a veteran MMO developer (famed for DAOC I believe). In this instance, that's like saying you got the guy who invented the bicycle to build a car... because he's an expert in wheels. Matt Firor comes across as an ignorant developer, entrenched in a development philosophy that should have died out years ago.

Done.

 cool story bro.

PS. just because you dislike the gear treadmill does not mean you are in a majority but a puny minority. Gear treadmill is acceptable and the majority do like it. 

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2734

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/11/12 11:34:01 AM#40
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by dotdotdash

Earlier today I decided to bite the bullet and watch the latest TESO teaser trailer. I went in expecting a video designed to lure me in with tidbits about the games "many and varied" ways to acquire gear; low and behold, that's what I got. Behind all of the gimmicky nonsense and developer nonspeak there lies a reality that many probably don't want to admit: The Elder Scrolls Online is more of the same, again.

At the start of the video Matt Firor - a veteran MMO developer (which is as much a problem as it is a boon) - makes a startlingly ignorant and highly amusing comment to the effect of, "The Elder Scrolls Online is designed to bring fans of The Elder Scrolls together with fans of the MMORPG genre." In one breathe, Matt Firor goes from being an educated, respected and knowledgable MMO developer to a man who knows very little about the franchise he's working with. You see, there may be SOME TES fans out there that have never played an MMO, and there may be SOME MMO fans out there that have never played TES... but they are few and far between. There is a HUGE amount of cross over between the two communities, so suggesting that they are diametrically opposed and are in need of some cupid-style matchmaking is baffling at best. In reality, Firor knows this to be the case... and it's probably true that this is just poor marketing speech that wasn't really thought through before it was scripted, but still... If you're going to make bold claims about your target audience, try to make them abstract enough that they can't lead to your mocking dismissal.

Anyway...

The game looks "alright", in the sense that every MMO since WoW has looked "alright". The graphics are, as we have come to expect, a compomise between the system-breaking attempts at photo-realism present in Skyrim, and the system-friendly cartoonisms of World of Warcraft. To be expect, for sure, but I would very much like it if a major MMO developer would define their own art direction, as opposed to simply upscaling slightly on what Blizzard is offering. The video CLEARLY display the SAME harsh lines and uninspiring colour pallette (if a little larger) as WoW has displayed for the last 8 years, and no amount of throwing watered down Skyrim textures into the mix is likely to hide this. It seems to me that the art department's remit was simply "make Skyrim look like WoW... or the other way round...". They've done a great job at that, but it's not really inspired me to any degree. At all.

The lore and history of The Elder Scrolls is perhaps unrivalled in it volume (and, perhaps, it quality). Between Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim there is a wealth of great lore pieces that could be used to great effect in TESO, so I'm thoroughly glad to see them going all out in that direction. The problem I have here comes down to something I'll discuss a little more later on: MMO compromises. It's become a trend in the genre to retcon and compromise on lore in order to make certain situations in game more... "believable"? World of Warcraft is famous for its habit of taking worthwhile storylines from the RTS games and novels of old, and watering them down so that they can fit the key characters and plot points into the dungeon and raid equation. The Elder Scrolls Online has both dungeons and raids, so my worry is quite reasonable: when, where and how arre ZeniMax Online going to compromise on the lore of TES in order to make it fit an MMO environment? There will be those who'll say it won't happen, just like there were those who said it wouldn't happen to LotRo, WAR, AoC and SWTOR; in all cases... they were wrong, and it did happen. We can only presume it's going to happen in TESO as well. FOR SHAME.

At this point, I just get his horrible feeling that TESO is a typical MMO - ala WoW - with some "Skyrim" gimmicks thrown in for good measure. The combat system, for example, hasn't really been outlined or demonstrated in great details, but from the video footage I saw today... it really does look like a standard "lock and cast" system with directional attacks, similar in nature to Guild Wars 2. Simply having sneaking does not an Elder Scrolls combat system make, yet it feels like that's really all ZMO have to do to make it feel like a TES game. Throw in some directional attacks and shiled blocking, and it doesn't really matter what else they do with the combat, right? Wrong. Even from the little footage displayed, it's clear at this point that the combat system we're getting in TESO is not a combat system deeply rooted in the TES tradition of a more "FPS" style RPG ruleset. Again, FOR SHAME.

Despite ZMO's claims that TESO is "different" from all other MMOs, they peddled the same elements that all other MMOs peddle when trying to be different - crafting, raiding, dungeons, questing, PvP. They all sounded eerily familiar, yet the developers seemed to be trying to make them sound wildly different. Questing, for example, is ultimately the same affair in TESO that it is in WoW; the only difference is that Blizzard organises quest givers into neat little packages, where TESO wants you to run around like a headless chicken. PvP is, again, exactly the same as in Guild Wars 2, or the more open zonal PvP in World of Warcraft. It all just sounds very, very, very samey to me.

Matt Firor again made a cracking comment: "The game opens up at level 50." This single statement implies that yet again we will be thrown onto an endgame gear treadmill, and expected to raid constantly to progress. Why can't the game open up at... say... level 1?????!!!!! Is that too obvious, or unreasonable, or what? In neither Oblivion nor Skyrim did I feel compelled to level. Levels were just this thing that happened as I moved through the game world, yet my experience was not hampered by ever having to be a particular level to get particular things done. In TESO, the opposite is true: you will have to level to move forward, and once you hit cap... the game will let you do all of the things you want to do. The same applies to armour: in Skyrim I crafted armour when I wanted to, but there was never any overt need to do so. In TESO, gear is important... and the video seems to imply that in order to get anywhere, or compete against other players, you'll have to get that gear.

Also, I DON'T CARE ONE JOT ABOUT "MEGASERVER" OR THE TECH BEHIND IT. If the game places me in a community I like, that is numerous and vibrant, I will be happy. If it does not, I will complain. Outside of that, I couldn't give a flying rats wings what the system that places me is called or how it works. It's not part of the game. It's a peripheral service. Like most consumers, I don't take my car to get repaired on the provision that the mechanic explains in detail how he's going to repair it. I just take it there broken, pick it up fixed, and that's enough for me.

So yeah... TESO looks lame. SWTOR lame. If they charge a sub fee for it, it'll sink like a brick tied to several other bricks. If they don't charge a sub fee for it, it'll sink just before it makes land off the island of prosperity (sort of like what Guild Wars 2 is doing). Either way, the game looks utterly and totally rubbish in almost all regards.

As I said at the start... Matt Firor is a veteran MMO developer (famed for DAOC I believe). In this instance, that's like saying you got the guy who invented the bicycle to build a car... because he's an expert in wheels. Matt Firor comes across as an ignorant developer, entrenched in a development philosophy that should have died out years ago.

Done.

 cool story bro.

PS. just because you dislike the gear treadmill does not mean you are in a majority but a puny minority. Gear treadmill is acceptable and the majority do like it. 

When was you elected official spokesman for all MMO players?  I sure didnt get that message because your views are not my own and I do not like you speaking on my behalf.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

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