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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Cant you have sandbox co-op, non-pvp?

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59 posts found
  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

12/10/12 8:03:50 AM#21
Originally posted by Mimzel

I can enjoy *some* themepark elements, and *some* sandbox elements. One thing that's always driven me away from sandbox games is the pvp aspect. A thing thats driven me away from most themeparks is the soloability they now have.

From recent releases I get the impression that you cant have sanbox without pvp. Is this the case? I'd love for a game to have the epicness and vastness of EVE, and the co-operation focus of more traditional mmorpgs ("themeparks").

UO is sandbox with optional PVP combat on the Trammel side.

ATITD has zero PVP combat.

Free Realms has no real PVP to speak of.

 

 

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

12/10/12 8:10:32 AM#22
Originally posted by FromHell
Originally posted by Larsa
Originally posted by mothefo

it's tricky because when you dont' allow pvp you are limiting freedom. ...

And when you allow PvP you are limiting freedom as well. One freedom is the freedom of the killer to kill, the other one is the freedom of the victim to live. The freedom argument is a very weak one.

You might prefer sandboxes with PvP and that's fine. I prefer them as well, playing Wurm on a PvP server. But I can see that it's very well possible to have a sandbox MMORPG without PvP, I need only point to Wurm again, this time to the PvE servers.

[Edit. typo]

complete BS.

A sandbox is supposed to simulate reality.

In RL you could walk out of your house and get run over by a bus or stabbed by a criminal who wants to rob you.

RL=ultimate sandbox

 

a good sandbox game simulates this or it's just another average carebear themepark

I do RL everyday - I go to my games to ESCAPE reality not model it. Call me a carebear then. I think people are silly who think it is their way or the highway - highway please.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  taziar

Novice Member

Joined: 9/09/11
Posts: 48

12/10/12 8:10:50 AM#23
You want the ability to kill anyone for realism?  Fine.  Include permadeth and a bounty system and I am game.  If you want realism, when you die, you are DEAD.  So gank lowbies all you want, they can just reroll with little time lost.  When your level-capped character is hunted down and killed and you are rerolling at lvl 1, enjoy your realism.  
  Sinella

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/03/09
Posts: 329

12/10/12 8:28:40 AM#24
Originally posted by FromHell
Originally posted by Larsa
Originally posted by mothefo

it's tricky because when you dont' allow pvp you are limiting freedom. ...

And when you allow PvP you are limiting freedom as well. One freedom is the freedom of the killer to kill, the other one is the freedom of the victim to live. The freedom argument is a very weak one.

You might prefer sandboxes with PvP and that's fine. I prefer them as well, playing Wurm on a PvP server. But I can see that it's very well possible to have a sandbox MMORPG without PvP, I need only point to Wurm again, this time to the PvE servers.

[Edit. typo]

complete BS.

A sandbox is supposed to simulate reality.

In RL you could walk out of your house and get run over by a bus or stabbed by a criminal who wants to rob you.

RL=ultimate sandbox

 

a good sandbox game simulates this or it's just another average carebear themepark

Really ? And how much do you enjoy that  features of the so called IRL sandbox ? If I had a cjoice I would surely choose not to be killed by anything IRL. I really don't need the excitement of being robbed of killed. And that's why we play games...not to have another reality which is just as bad as the real one, but to escape the real one and enjoy fun in another one. Sandboxes are meant to be fun, just as any other game, not pure simulations.

 

And if you really want a simulation I'm sure you insist to have permadeath, and permaban in case of a player kills another one. Or your account to be locked in jail for 10 years. Have fun in game then, lol.

  vonryan123

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/08
Posts: 143

12/10/12 8:31:55 AM#25

I think if done right you can have the best of both.

 

Where as this is a sore spot for some I played SWG from beta till shut down. For me it was more a "sandbox" it had pvp flagged areas it had some theme to its park and the best crafting system to date.

 

so yes it can be done

 

p.s. let me know when/where you find it lol

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

12/10/12 8:50:34 AM#26
Originally posted by vonryan123

I think if done right you can have the best of both.

I sometimes wonder how many devs end up regreting their decisions to shoehorn both sub-genres into the same game.

The players resent each other; and they resent balance changes that they perceive aimed at "the other guys".  Balancing both sub-genres at the same time is...well...kind of a dream.  Seperate gear sets..."resilience" or some other scheme...double the server types...

It's just an unholy bastard mess, a lot of the time. 

Why not let games specialize? Shrug. They always used to.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3541

12/10/12 9:53:51 AM#27
     Its funny that the term "sandbox" is used at all because I dont remember any kids killing other kids in the sandbox when I was that age......
  qwave

Novice Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 14

12/10/12 10:04:50 AM#28

If you do not have PvP in a sandbox, there is constant power and wealth entering the economy indefinitely.  Players do not fear consequences for their actions.  The game world becomes one massive 'city', where there are no real objectives, conflicts, or politics.

I am the developer for an upcoming sandbox MMORPG, Topia Online, and I would love to hear a solution to the above problems.  My design team and I have struggled for a long time on how to possibly create a sandbox without PvP or Permadeath.  What will the players be doing all day, and what would stop things like inflation if nothing ever 'goes away'?

If you think you have the answer to make a non-PvP sandbox world a lasting and fun experience, please tell me!

  apocoluster

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1231

\m/,

12/10/12 10:12:53 AM#29
Originally posted by FromHell

A sandbox is supposed to simulate reality.

In RL you could walk out of your house and get run over by a bus or stabbed by a criminal who wants to rob you.

RL=ultimate sandbox

 Ive said this very same thing...I wonder if you are going to get flamed as badly as I was.   Of course your in support of  Sandy games I i was against when I said it.  Might make a slight differnce  to the flamers.   Guess Ill sit back and watch the hypocracy .

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  apocoluster

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1231

\m/,

12/10/12 10:15:56 AM#30
Originally posted by Scellow
Go on Second Life, everything with SandBox but no PVP no PVE just sandboxe :)

or Utherverse  just like 2L but with sexy time  :)

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  Aelious

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2258

World > Quest Progression

12/10/12 10:19:04 AM#31
Well if we're emulating real life then those who PK, I'd their characters are caught, are locked from play from there on out. I could live with that, make every game FFA PvP :)

Since that won't happen I'll enjoy PvP but assert there should be places for it that are optional to go and participate. Once in that area of course there is no complaining about being PK'd
  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7029

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

12/10/12 10:22:38 AM#32
Originally posted by qwave

If you do not have PvP in a sandbox, there is constant power and wealth entering the economy indefinitely. 

Easily addressed by gear degredation and other simple design choices. PvP is *not* the only solution to these issues.

Players do not fear consequences for their actions. 

Tell that to classic era EQ players where REPUTATION and having a functional extended social network was probably the most single valuable thing you could have in the game.

The game world becomes one massive 'city', where there are no real objectives, conflicts, or politics.

No objectives? No conflicts or politics? Again, you never played classic era EQ, right?

I am the developer for an upcoming sandbox MMORPG, Topia Online, and I would love to hear a solution to the above problems. 

My advice would be to play, and I mean properly play, a pure PvE *interdependent* MMORPG and see how they work. Modern solo-centric PvE games will not provide any answers here. Look for when they next launch a classic EQ server and jump in- You will learn a lot probably about player self policing and how a community that needs to rely on each other works without PvP being needed.

 

  Sinella

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/03/09
Posts: 329

12/10/12 10:35:59 AM#33
Originally posted by qwave

If you do not have PvP in a sandbox, there is constant power and wealth entering the economy indefinitely.  Players do not fear consequences for their actions.  The game world becomes one massive 'city', where there are no real objectives, conflicts, or politics.

I am the developer for an upcoming sandbox MMORPG, Topia Online, and I would love to hear a solution to the above problems.  My design team and I have struggled for a long time on how to possibly create a sandbox without PvP or Permadeath.  What will the players be doing all day, and what would stop things like inflation if nothing ever 'goes away'?

If you think you have the answer to make a non-PvP sandbox world a lasting and fun experience, please tell me!

I'm surprised that as a developer you haven't realized yet that PvP doesn't destroy items and wealth, it only changes the owner of it. To get rid of money and items in a game you need item decay and/or item loss on death. And I mean PvE death...if a player dies in PvE he can lose everything he had on him, you don't need PvP for that.

 

You need to code some money sink too, like money could be needed for buying land to build on, to pay for upkeep, to hire NPCs to gather for you etc. Only some ideas.

 

I recommand you to play RuneScape for some months ( as a member). It's very sandboxy, and there is just a huge amount of content to play apart of PvP, and even apart of combat. That game has the most non-combat oriented content I've ever seen.  And by content I don't mean stupid repetitive quests, but tools and systems to have fun in game. You may get some ideas ( I don't mean copying it), developers and players are way too combat orientated nowadays imo, that's why our games get so boring after a short while.

  Shaike

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/23/12
Posts: 276

At first there were games, then MMOs, then MMORPGs then I understood I had no life :-)

12/10/12 10:36:00 AM#34
Originally posted by qwave

If you do not have PvP in a sandbox, there is constant power and wealth entering the economy indefinitely.  Players do not fear consequences for their actions.  The game world becomes one massive 'city', where there are no real objectives, conflicts, or politics.

I am the developer for an upcoming sandbox MMORPG, Topia Online, and I would love to hear a solution to the above problems.  My design team and I have struggled for a long time on how to possibly create a sandbox without PvP or Permadeath.  What will the players be doing all day, and what would stop things like inflation if nothing ever 'goes away'?

If you think you have the answer to make a non-PvP sandbox world a lasting and fun experience, please tell me!

I can think os something - i will try to explain.

The NPCs are only "policing" the "city" as you describe it, which means that if someone should be punished he will. The "trick" is to make the "prison" something different - (like real prisons if you wish) - then you are not "banned for 10 years" as others stated here - but go in a special place (in game) where other criminals are. There will be rules there , but (like in real prisons) you could prob do some stuff without getting caught (and maybe increase you rep/power etc in prison), and when you are out you have to conform to the rules outside.

So that way the PVP part is actually in prison (and maybe if you aren't caught when outside of prison) - could be nice i think.. like 2 games in one - PVE mostly outside the jail/prison , and mostly (but not only) PVP in prison (as a bad guy - which most PVPers love to be)

PM in person if you think this could wokr - i might have ways of elaborating on this....

Just my 2 cents...

  Aelious

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2258

World > Quest Progression

12/10/12 10:45:48 AM#35
Qwave

IMO you can have both dedicated PvP and PvE in a sandbox MMO, even the same game/world/server. First you would need factions or another "agitator" that would cause strife between peoples. Then take areas of the gameworld, warfronts between nations for example, and make those open PvP areas. They would have no visible lines to them and when you look at a game map they would have the same geographical space as the PvE only areas.

Both PvE and PvP areas would have their own dungeons, world bosses and reasons for being there. The idea of areas and items, though equal in power, should entice people to head into "danger" to get to them. Because it would be more difficult to progress in the PvP areas I think having a faction based reputation system would be good for PKs and general activities while in PvP areas.

2cp
  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2703

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

12/10/12 11:13:32 AM#36


Originally posted by qwave
If you do not have PvP in a sandbox, there is constant power and wealth entering the economy indefinitely.  Players do not fear consequences for their actions.  The game world becomes one massive 'city', where there are no real objectives, conflicts, or politics.

I am the developer for an upcoming sandbox MMORPG, Topia Online, and I would love to hear a solution to the above problems.  My design team and I have struggled for a long time on how to possibly create a sandbox without PvP or Permadeath.  What will the players be doing all day, and what would stop things like inflation if nothing ever 'goes away'?

If you think you have the answer to make a non-PvP sandbox world a lasting and fun experience, please tell me!



What will players be doing all day? Having fun, of course! They will hunting, gathering, building, combating, exploring, fishing, chatting, organizing, dungeon delving, and the many, many other activities players like to do in a game. It is very interesting when one looks at the creativity of players. Give them (the players) the tools and they will thrive. Not "Foundary Tools" like NWN advertises, but the freedom to come up with and do things on their own, unscripted.

Handle economy? Item decay. Don't have monsters dropping coins and sell-able gear, unless they actually use it and equip it. Don't fill your world with items that have no use other than inflating your economy, aka vendor trash. Limit vendor's wealth. Why do they seem to make gold appear on demand?

Is that a fair start?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2703

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

12/10/12 11:19:16 AM#37


Originally posted by mothefo

Originally posted by Larsa

Originally posted by mothefo
it's tricky because when you dont' allow pvp you are limiting freedom. ...

And when you allow PvP you are limiting freedom as well. One freedom is the freedom of the killer to kill, the other one is the freedom of the victim lo live. The freedom argument is a very weak one.

You might prefer sandboxes with PvP and that's fine. I prefer them as well, playing Wurm on a PvP server. But I can see that it's very well possible to have a sandbox MMORPG without PvP, I need only point to Wurm again, this time to the PvE servers.



i disagree with your statement on freedom. living and dieing are both freedoms. emagine a life where you couldn't die even if you wanted......you'd feel forced to live, not free to live, because in the end you do not have the choice. in the end it all comes back to choice. a game that has more choice feels more free, even if that choice means sometimes being victim of other peoples choices. You still have the choice to do exactly what he did to you.  

as for the PVE Wurm, sure it's possible, but it gets very boring when all you can do is build and destroy structures all day.



Freedom for one usually comes as a constriction to another. Forcing PvP upon players who do not enjoy it is kind of restricting, don't you think?

If someone wishes to enjoy battling monsters (not other players), crafting, building, exploring, what have you, why impose your enjoyment of PvP on them? Sure, you have the freedom to PvP, but is that freedom for the other player who has no desire for such gameplay?


Originally posted by FromHell
complete BS.

A sandbox is supposed to simulate reality.

In RL you could walk out of your house and get run over by a bus or stabbed by a criminal who wants to rob you.

RL=ultimate sandbox

a good sandbox game simulates this or it's just another average carebear themepark



Oh please. Buses are monsters. They can kill a player. Bandits exist in game (NPC), without the help of a PC doing their job for them.

In "the real world", can you walk out *your* door and kill your neighbor? You betcha! And you could also serve 10+ years in jail for the act. In "the real world", can you open up your uzi in a shopping mall? You betcha! And again, you could serve jailtime. Get what I am getting at here? In PvP, there are NO consequences for one's actions, which means people will act accordingly.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Larsa

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/04
Posts: 992

12/10/12 12:39:09 PM#38


Originally posted by qwave

If you do not have PvP in a sandbox, there is constant power and wealth entering the economy indefinitely.


Other posters already told you that there is no difference in this respect between PvP and PvE games - PvP doesn't remove wealth from the game, only the ownership changes. The problem you describe (wealth entering the game) exists both in PvP and PvE games. Item loss on death or decay can be implemented - no matter whether it's a PvE or PvP game.


Originally posted by qwave
Players do not fear consequences for their actions. 

Again, this has nothing to do with PvP or PvE - if a game causes you to drop all items on death there is a real consequence for your action, no matter whether the character died to a player or mob.


Originally posted by qwave

... I am the developer for an upcoming sandbox MMORPG, Topia Online, and I would love to hear a solution to the above problems. My design team and I have struggled for a long time on how to possibly create a sandbox without PvP or Permadeath. What will the players be doing all day, and what would stop things like inflation if nothing ever 'goes away'?


With all due respect, qwave, did you and your design team ever bothered to look at one of the sandbox MMORPGs without PvP? I'm curious how you and your design team "struggled" when there are several other games around to show you how it's done.


Originally posted by qwave
If you think you have the answer to make a non-PvP sandbox world a lasting and fun experience, please tell me!
 

Just look at Wurm, Istaria, Ryzom, ATitD, even Eve (a large number of players never engages in PvP) and a slew of other games.

I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3545

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

12/10/12 12:44:58 PM#39
Originally posted by Mimzel

I can enjoy *some* themepark elements, and *some* sandbox elements. One thing that's always driven me away from sandbox games is the pvp aspect. A thing thats driven me away from most themeparks is the soloability they now have.

From recent releases I get the impression that you cant have sanbox without pvp. Is this the case? I'd love for a game to have the epicness and vastness of EVE, and the co-operation focus of more traditional mmorpgs ("themeparks").

No, sorry, its in the contract. It clearly states in paragraph two section 3, that ALL sand box games MUST be FFA full loot.  No exceptions. ^^ 

One would think that someone would eventually get it right, but given the zealots that tend to be involved in sand box games, that may be a vain hope, at least for now. 

  MarlonB

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/06
Posts: 500

12/10/12 12:54:13 PM#40

I liked the way SWG handled this ... you could "declare" PvP. You could live a livetime there without PvP-ing, while others would do nothing else.

 

Keep an eye on the repopulation, they are going the same route.

The Repopulation - Scfi Fi Sandbox.

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