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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is The West Getting Beat By The East?

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88 posts found
  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1866

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  12/09/12 7:59:57 PM#61
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Razeekster
"Where are they? Playing Eve?" Um, excuse me? I am one of these players and have zero interest in Eve so that is not true at all. I also am not interested in WoW or RIFT, I played Guild Wars 2 for a bit but realized it really wasn't that dramatically different and got bored of it soon afterwords.

 

There is indeed a fact an audience for these types of players. You don't see us because we don't just all play "Eve" like you seem to think.




ArcheAge cost twenty five million dollars to produce. Including yourself, and every person on these forums who wants ArcheAge to get made, you need another million people or so for a game like ArcheAge to get developed and released in the U.S. or Europe.

I keep hearing about this audience, but there's nothing to indicate it has a significant number of people, other than forum posts like these saying it has a significant number of people. I'm sure there is an audience for games like ArcheAge in the West, but it's not big enough to warrant actually producing something like ArcheAge in the West.

 

What the HELL are you talking about?! Sorry to be so freaking blunt, but you do NOT in fact need 1 million players for it be released in the NA or Europe. A game can do perfectly fine with 500 thousand and even less players. Do you actually think that every MMO's playerbase is made up of millions of players?

 

Well, I hate to break it to you, but you're absolutely wrong! Not every MMO has or needs the population of WoW to be a success.

Smile

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10376

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

12/09/12 8:04:38 PM#62


Originally posted by Razeekster

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Razeekster "Where are they? Playing Eve?" Um, excuse me? I am one of these players and have zero interest in Eve so that is not true at all. I also am not interested in WoW or RIFT, I played Guild Wars 2 for a bit but realized it really wasn't that dramatically different and got bored of it soon afterwords.   There is indeed a fact an audience for these types of players. You don't see us because we don't just all play "Eve" like you seem to think.
ArcheAge cost twenty five million dollars to produce. Including yourself, and every person on these forums who wants ArcheAge to get made, you need another million people or so for a game like ArcheAge to get developed and released in the U.S. or Europe. I keep hearing about this audience, but there's nothing to indicate it has a significant number of people, other than forum posts like these saying it has a significant number of people. I'm sure there is an audience for games like ArcheAge in the West, but it's not big enough to warrant actually producing something like ArcheAge in the West.  
What the HELL are you talking about?! Sorry to be so freaking blunt, but you do NOT in fact need 1 million players for it be released in the NA or Europe. A game can do perfectly fine with 500 thousand and even less players. Do you actually think that every MMO's playerbase is made up of millions of players?

 

Well, I hate to break it to you, but you're absolutely wrong! Not every MMO has or needs the population of WoW to be a success.




Read what I said. It would need that many people to buy the box in order to be developed in the U.S. or Europe. The game will not get 100% retention. So a million to buy the game, five hundred thousand or less to play it on a regular basis if it were developed in the U.S. or Europe.

Which is why the game is being developed in Asia, where it's going to make money, and then get released in the West.

Also, WoW had twelve million players, not one million, which means WoW sold a lot more than twelve million boxes.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1866

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  12/09/12 8:12:33 PM#63
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Razeekster

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Razeekster "Where are they? Playing Eve?" Um, excuse me? I am one of these players and have zero interest in Eve so that is not true at all. I also am not interested in WoW or RIFT, I played Guild Wars 2 for a bit but realized it really wasn't that dramatically different and got bored of it soon afterwords.   There is indeed a fact an audience for these types of players. You don't see us because we don't just all play "Eve" like you seem to think.
ArcheAge cost twenty five million dollars to produce. Including yourself, and every person on these forums who wants ArcheAge to get made, you need another million people or so for a game like ArcheAge to get developed and released in the U.S. or Europe. I keep hearing about this audience, but there's nothing to indicate it has a significant number of people, other than forum posts like these saying it has a significant number of people. I'm sure there is an audience for games like ArcheAge in the West, but it's not big enough to warrant actually producing something like ArcheAge in the West.  
What the HELL are you talking about?! Sorry to be so freaking blunt, but you do NOT in fact need 1 million players for it be released in the NA or Europe. A game can do perfectly fine with 500 thousand and even less players. Do you actually think that every MMO's playerbase is made up of millions of players?

 

 

Well, I hate to break it to you, but you're absolutely wrong! Not every MMO has or needs the population of WoW to be a success.




Read what I said. It would need that many people to buy the box in order to be developed in the U.S. or Europe. The game will not get 100% retention. So a million to buy the game, five hundred thousand or less to play it on a regular basis if it were developed in the U.S. or Europe.

Which is why the game is being developed in Asia, where it's going to make money, and then get released in the West.

Also, WoW had twelve million players, not one million, which means WoW sold a lot more than twelve million boxes.

 

I can't agree with you at all. I really don't think you know what you're talking about. Just look at all the Kickstarter projects that have anything to do with sandbox MMOs. They always get funded and over funded a lot of times (besides Xyson's new venture to get even more money after doing nothing that they promised). I'm fairly sure a lot of people are in fact looking for something like AA in the West.

Smile

  ObiClownobi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/12
Posts: 189

12/09/12 9:18:19 PM#64
Originally posted by lizardbones
 Four hundred thousand people isn't enough to justify a twenty five million dollar development cost.

400k people buying a box (30$ to the Devs=12m) and subbing for 3 months (3x15$=18m) brings in 30m in a few months.


"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs

  Alberel

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 1121

12/09/12 9:23:48 PM#65

This issue ultimately comes down to financial backing and corporate greed, mostly as a result of Blizzard's success with WoW.

Prior to the release of WoW MMO budgets were relatively small and they were considered a success with merely a few hundred thousand subscribers (or even less). UO, EQ1, DAOC, etc. were all relatively small MMOs by today's standards but they were all financial successes. These days any game with those sorts of subscription numbers is considered a financial failure. Why? Because the budget was too high and the return on investment needed was just ludicrously high. They seem to think WoW's success can be repeated, whilst the common belief amongst the community these days is that it was a fluke.

Post-WoW the investors behind development studios have become incredibly greedy and are ALL aiming far too high. They pump far too much money into development and target the same audience as Blizzard which is a recipe for disappointment. For some reason they just don't understand the market at all; they don't seem to realise that offering someone the same thing they already have is not going to sway them to buy.

In the east, however, we see a different trend. Over there either the developers are given more freedom or the investors are more acutely aware that success is closely tied to innovation and offering the consumer something different rather than more of the same. A lot of western players may not like the games (usually based on art style alone, which I feel is rather shallow) but it cannot be denied that their games have been much more experimental and innovative in the last few years compared to any western releases. Even GW2 (which was supposed to be quite innovative) turned out to only be skin deep; it was really just more of the same in a new skin.

In the near future the west only really has TESO and EQ:N blinking on the radar and the former so far doesn't appear to have anything unique at all, whilst the latter has a lot of potential but is just words at this stage (and significantly words from a man who has been less than honest with the MMO community in the past). The east has AA, B&S, AoW just to name a few and each is doing things that are totally new to the genre.

I'd very much agree with the OP; the east is pulling ahead. Perhaps not in terms of success (yet) but it seems eastern investors aren't as cowardly as their western counterparts and that already puts them leagues ahead...

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10376

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

12/09/12 9:32:56 PM#66


Originally posted by Razeekster

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Razeekster

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Razeekster "Where are they? Playing Eve?" Um, excuse me? I am one of these players and have zero interest in Eve so that is not true at all. I also am not interested in WoW or RIFT, I played Guild Wars 2 for a bit but realized it really wasn't that dramatically different and got bored of it soon afterwords.   There is indeed a fact an audience for these types of players. You don't see us because we don't just all play "Eve" like you seem to think.
ArcheAge cost twenty five million dollars to produce. Including yourself, and every person on these forums who wants ArcheAge to get made, you need another million people or so for a game like ArcheAge to get developed and released in the U.S. or Europe. I keep hearing about this audience, but there's nothing to indicate it has a significant number of people, other than forum posts like these saying it has a significant number of people. I'm sure there is an audience for games like ArcheAge in the West, but it's not big enough to warrant actually producing something like ArcheAge in the West.  
What the HELL are you talking about?! Sorry to be so freaking blunt, but you do NOT in fact need 1 million players for it be released in the NA or Europe. A game can do perfectly fine with 500 thousand and even less players. Do you actually think that every MMO's playerbase is made up of millions of players?     Well, I hate to break it to you, but you're absolutely wrong! Not every MMO has or needs the population of WoW to be a success.
Read what I said. It would need that many people to buy the box in order to be developed in the U.S. or Europe. The game will not get 100% retention. So a million to buy the game, five hundred thousand or less to play it on a regular basis if it were developed in the U.S. or Europe. Which is why the game is being developed in Asia, where it's going to make money, and then get released in the West. Also, WoW had twelve million players, not one million, which means WoW sold a lot more than twelve million boxes.  
I can't agree with you at all. I really don't think you know what you're talking about. Just look at all the Kickstarter projects that have anything to do with sandbox MMOs. They always get funded and over funded a lot of times (besides Xyson's new venture to get even more money after doing nothing that they promised). I'm fairly sure a lot of people are in fact looking for something like AA in the West.


Wait until ArcheAge releases, and then wait for those games to release. Those games will not be anything like ArcheAge in terms of features, or polish. Not to mention the game engine being used.

** edit **
The point is that there is a huge difference between a twenty five million dollar game released by a developer who has released games before and a sub ten million dollar game released by a freshmen developer.

To get the twenty five million dollar game released by an experienced, successful developer, you need a bigger audience than what exists in the U.S. and Europe.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10376

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

12/09/12 9:35:40 PM#67


Originally posted by Alberel
This issue ultimately comes down to financial backing and corporate greed, mostly as a result of Blizzard's success with WoW.

Prior to the release of WoW MMO budgets were relatively small and they were considered a success with merely a few hundred thousand subscribers (or even less). UO, EQ1, DAOC, etc. were all relatively small MMOs by today's standards but they were all financial successes. These days any game with those sorts of subscription numbers is considered a financial failure. Why? Because the budget was too high and the return on investment needed was just ludicrously high. They seem to think WoW's success can be repeated, whilst the common belief amongst the community these days is that it was a fluke.

Post-WoW the investors behind development studios have become incredibly greedy and are ALL aiming far too high. They pump far too much money into development and target the same audience as Blizzard which is a recipe for disappointment. For some reason they just don't understand the market at all; they don't seem to realise that offering someone the same thing they already have is not going to sway them to buy.

In the east, however, we see a different trend. Over there either the developers are given more freedom or the investors are more acutely aware that success is closely tied to innovation and offering the consumer something different rather than more of the same. A lot of western players may not like the games (usually based on art style alone, which I feel is rather shallow) but it cannot be denied that their games have been much more experimental and innovative in the last few years compared to any western releases. Even GW2 (which was supposed to be quite innovative) turned out to only be skin deep; it was really just more of the same in a new skin.

In the near future the west only really has TESO and EQ:N blinking on the radar and the former so far doesn't appear to have anything unique at all, whilst the latter has a lot of potential but is just words at this stage (and significantly words from a man who has been less than honest with the MMO community in the past). The east has AA, B&S, AoW just to name a few and each is doing things that are totally new to the genre.

I'd very much agree with the OP; the east is pulling ahead. Perhaps not in terms of success (yet) but it seems eastern investors aren't as cowardly as their western counterparts and that already puts them leagues ahead...




Investors do not care what kind of games get made. The care what kind of developer they are investing in. If a developer has a track record of making games, even small games, that people like and buy, then that developer is more likely to get money.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Goll25

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/10
Posts: 184

12/09/12 9:39:40 PM#68

Nope. I have yet to play a quality Korean MMO or game at all for that matter. And our games are the top over there (league,starcraft,diablo3). Japan has good srpgs though, still not good enough to beat us.

  Thorbrand

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 1217

12/09/12 9:41:08 PM#69
Asian games have always been better than NA games since electronic gaming was invented. I want to know why I can't play the Asian version of the games and why I have to play dumbed down NA versions all the time?
  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1866

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  12/09/12 9:54:50 PM#70
Originally posted by ObiClownobi
Originally posted by lizardbones
 Four hundred thousand people isn't enough to justify a twenty five million dollar development cost.

400k people buying a box (30$ to the Devs=12m) and subbing for 3 months (3x15$=18m) brings in 30m in a few months.

Exactly. Why on earth so many people have this idea that for an MMO to be a success it must garner the same userbase as WoW, I'll never know.

Smile

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1866

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  12/09/12 9:56:27 PM#71
Originally posted by Thorbrand
Asian games have always been better than NA games since electronic gaming was invented. I want to know why I can't play the Asian version of the games and why I have to play dumbed down NA versions all the time?

And I know exactly how you feel. I especially love JRPGs and for some reason PC gamers get the short end of the stick because not as many JRPGs get translated for the PC. Mostly it's just for gaming consoles.

Smile

  Ginaz

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/01/07
Posts: 1678

12/09/12 10:22:13 PM#72
There hasn't been one "eastern" MMO I've played thats been worth a damn.  Theres a lot of crap western MMOs, too, but I've enjoyed a good many of them, at least for awhile.

Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3461

12/09/12 10:24:43 PM#73

Japanese gaming has been in decline over the past 10 years actually.

The king of JRPG 'Final Fantasy' series aren't doing that well.

EPIC being bought out and Capcom buying western studios is a testament to that.

In the MMO space, East does have a leg up but West still has WoW.

Then again, Acti-Blizz is on the market so who knows how long that'll be. XD

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Ginaz

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/01/07
Posts: 1678

12/09/12 10:25:33 PM#74
Originally posted by Thorbrand
Asian games have always been better than NA games since electronic gaming was invented. I want to know why I can't play the Asian version of the games and why I have to play dumbed down NA versions all the time?

For you, maybe.  I personally have never been into asian made games as I don't like the art style or the weirdness that they often bring to the table.

Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  User Deleted
12/09/12 10:29:06 PM#75
All I know is that I'm tired of Korean developers trying to sell the same rehashed mmo grind to the US market.  Every one of their MMO's seems to be a cash shop quantity-over-quality experience.  You know all the old school MMO's that people keep wishing would come back?  Western MMO's.  You know the sea of generic MMO's that has saturated the market in the last 5 years?  Eastern.
  Ambros123

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/11
Posts: 891

12/09/12 10:53:03 PM#76
Originally posted by Thorbrand
Asian games have always been better than NA games since electronic gaming was invented. I want to know why I can't play the Asian version of the games and why I have to play dumbed down NA versions all the time?

Ohhhh really?  Then whay is it that some of the most renowned and hall of fame games are WESTERN games?  Baulders Gate, Icewind Dale, Wing Commander, the Ultimas, Mass Effect series, Planescape Torument to name a few.  Sure there are some great Asian games out there but there are just as many if not more as good if not better games that were developed by Westerners.

Not eveyone wants to be just like Sephi or *rolls eyes* Cloud.   Personally find Eastern games more times than not unappealing.

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1866

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  12/09/12 10:57:11 PM#77
Originally posted by asmkm22
All I know is that I'm tired of Korean developers trying to sell the same rehashed mmo grind to the US market.  Every one of their MMO's seems to be a cash shop quantity-over-quality experience.  You know all the old school MMO's that people keep wishing would come back?  Western MMO's.  You know the sea of generic MMO's that has saturated the market in the last 5 years?  Eastern.

The old MMOs that you're talking about had little direction besides maybe UO. In the old Western MMOs there was way more grind than there is in the ones they have now. Not to mention when anyone adds open world PvP like the old Western MMOs had there, the major population rages about ganking and the like.

 

It's time to accept the fact that "hardcore" PvP old schoolers are largely in the minor population. And that's not to be critical of these group of players considering I used to be one of those players.

Smile

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1866

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  12/09/12 10:58:21 PM#78
Originally posted by Ambros123
Originally posted by Thorbrand
Asian games have always been better than NA games since electronic gaming was invented. I want to know why I can't play the Asian version of the games and why I have to play dumbed down NA versions all the time?

Ohhhh really?  Then whay is it that some of the most renowned and hall of fame games are WESTERN games?  Baulders Gate, Icewind Dale, Wing Commander, the Ultimas, Mass Effect series, Planescape Torument to name a few.  Sure there are some great Asian games out there but there are just as many if not more as good if not better games that were developed by Westerners.

Not eveyone wants to be just like Sephi or *rolls eyes* Cloud.   Personally find Eastern games more times than not unappealing.

Now ask where the hall of fame games is located... Oh right, here in the West *cough*

Smile

  User Deleted
12/09/12 10:59:57 PM#79
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by asmkm22
All I know is that I'm tired of Korean developers trying to sell the same rehashed mmo grind to the US market.  Every one of their MMO's seems to be a cash shop quantity-over-quality experience.  You know all the old school MMO's that people keep wishing would come back?  Western MMO's.  You know the sea of generic MMO's that has saturated the market in the last 5 years?  Eastern.

The old MMOs that you're talking about had little direction besides maybe UO. In the old Western MMOs there was way more grind than there is in the ones they have now. Not to mention when anyone adds open world PvP like the old Western MMOs had there, the major population rages about ganking and the like.

 

It's time to accept the fact that "hardcore" PvP old schoolers are largely in the minor population. And that's not to be critical of these group of players considering I used to be one of those players.

As grindy as they were, they couldnt' hold a candle to eastern stuff.  I remember plenty of conversations that went along the lines of...

"I'm so tired of camping the group of Orcs just to level."

"Try Lineage, it's 10 times worse.  This is easy."

  slicknslim88

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 400

12/09/12 11:03:40 PM#80
The east got their grindy games.  Let them do what theyw ant with them, to each their own.  Meanwhile we can enjoy awsome MMO's like GW2.
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