Originally posted by Redemp

 Thank you to the few people in this thread who were able to constructively look at the premise of this thread and discuss it without going into the incredibly hypocritical, hipster anti-american rhetoric. I'll leave it at that.

 On-Topic :

I don't think the East is beating the West in regards to mmo development, I don't think its possible for one hemisphere to beat the other in this regard. Like others have said the mmo's being made are being made for their respective markets, there is some sucess on both sides of the world for crossing into each others.

 

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by Razeekster

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Originally posted by lizardbones  

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Originally posted by Razeekster ArcheAge is the first sandbox+themepark mixed game coming out soon in Korea. Yes there have been some sandbox games here in the West, but the quality of them has been piss poor. That's one thing that I noticed in general. Graphically speaking the East has us beat. Their games are far superior in the graphics department and I don't understand why. I believe that the West has the cabalities to be right on par with them in the graphics department.   It seems like the Eastern MMO industry is more accepting to funding AAA sandbox MMOs more so than the West now because another one is also being made in China called Project S.  My whole focus is not meant to be on sandboxes, so you need to think that is what I'm trying to get at. I'm just noticing how the East is now developing less and less of what the West considers grindy games and going for more quality ones. I mean look at B&S and Age of Wushu. Those are also both two impressive games, with Age of Wushu introducing features that I don't think I've even heard of in other asian martial arts MMOs. What does the West have going for it in 2013... The Elder Scrolls Online? No offense but I don't believe that MMO will be as successful as a lot of people seem to think. People seem to forget that most of the time when popular IPs get turned into MMOs they don't do well a lot of times (with the exception of LotRO maybe). Not only that but TESO isn't even adding the combat which it's famous for into the MMO version and I can't see it being wildly popular simply based on the lore. The other things that the West have going for it are mostly unfinished projects backed up by Kickstarter, which until I see come to fruition I won't be putting much stock into. What do you guys think? Is the East surpassing the West when it comes to the quality of MMOs? I myself am seeing less and less of asian grinders and more and more quality looking games coming from the East (the grinders I do see coming to the West from the East have already been in the East for 4+ years and so I don't count those).

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The "East" is developing games for Asian audiences, and then getting additional profits in the West. The "West" is developing games for non-Asian audiences and then getting additional profits in the East. If the Eastern developers are more accepting of something different, it's because their audience is more accepting of something different, not because they are more accepting of something different.  

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I don't know what you mean. The West has been asking for these same features too. I just think the developers here in the West aren't willing to take as many risks. 

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This keeps getting brought up again and again, but it's just not true. Where are they? Playing Eve? Four hundred thousand people isn't enough to justify a twenty five million dollar development cost. Especially since those people are already playing a game they like. Where are the rest of them? On websites like this one?

There are on average two hundred people posting at any given time. Half of them like WoW, Rift and Guild Wars 2. That leaves a hundred people. There are two thousand lurkers at any given time. How many people is that on websites total? Even assuming all two thousand lurkers are all interested in games like ArcheAge or Wushu, that's what, ten thousand people? Where are the rest of them? You're still a couple million short.

The games will get made in Asia, where they will make their money, or fail like Tera did. Then they'll get released here, where they'll make some more money. They'll get released in Asia first because that's where the audience for those games exists. They'll get released here afterwards because there are enough people to justify releasing a game here after the development costs are already covered by releasing the games in Asia.

All the talk about the huge audience for sandbox style or hardcore Asian games is just that, talk. There's no proof that the audience exists anywhere outside the imaginations of the people who like those games.

 

"Where are they? Playing Eve?" Um, excuse me? I am one of these players and have zero interest in Eve so that is not true at all. I also am not interested in WoW or RIFT, I played Guild Wars 2 for a bit but realized it really wasn't that dramatically different and got bored of it soon afterwords.

There is indeed a fact an audience for these types of players. You don't see us because we don't just all play "Eve" like you seem to think.

Originally posted by Razeekster

Originally posted by snapfusion

I suppose if you are consumed by eastern culture then YES we are.  Personaly not a SINGLE game has come out of the east that appeals to me in any way.

Dont like the art styles

Dont like the music

Dont like the animations

Dont like the sound effects

Dont ike the combat

Dont like the quest content or writing

Dont like their use of textures lighting etc.

So basically nothing

If your saying the ONE up and coming game that might possibly not suck (Archage) means we are getting beat game design wise than thats a pretty silly statement.

You didn't read my whole post... The whole focus wasn't at all on ArcheAge or sandboxes which if you had read my whole post, it clearly even stated as much.

Sorry if I wasnt clear then, I was combining stuff from multiple responses to your original post.  I dont feel the East is doing anything but making annoying games based on my bullet points.  The final sentence was in response to someone saying yes we are losing it, look at Archage.

Originally posted by snapfusion

Originally posted by Razeekster

Originally posted by snapfusion

I suppose if you are consumed by eastern culture then YES we are.  Personaly not a SINGLE game has come out of the east that appeals to me in any way.

Dont like the art styles

Dont like the music

Dont like the animations

Dont like the sound effects

Dont ike the combat

Dont like the quest content or writing

Dont like their use of textures lighting etc.

So basically nothing

If your saying the ONE up and coming game that might possibly not suck (Archage) means we are getting beat game design wise than thats a pretty silly statement.

You didn't read my whole post... The whole focus wasn't at all on ArcheAge or sandboxes which if you had read my whole post, it clearly even stated as much.

Sorry if I wasnt clear then, I was combining stuff from multiple responses to your original post.  I dont feel the East is doing anything but making annoying games based on my bullet points.  The final sentence was in response to someone saying yes we are losing it, look at Archage.

It's not just ArcheAge. Look at Age of Wushu, look at B&S, look at Black Desert, look at Mabinogi II: Arena, look at Project S... I'm hopeful for World of Darkness in the West, but that's about it.

Originally posted by Robokapp

the west, particularly the region between th Atlantic and Pacific tends to be very fickle and trendy and ... unstable.

Pretty spot on.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Robokapp

the west, particularly the region between th Atlantic and Pacific tends to be very fickle and trendy and ... unstable.

Pretty spot on.

Sometimes I think the studios in that region spend more money on marketing than on actually building what the marketing department promises.

Originally posted by Razeekster

Originally posted by snapfusion

Originally posted by Razeekster

Originally posted by snapfusion

I suppose if you are consumed by eastern culture then YES we are.  Personaly not a SINGLE game has come out of the east that appeals to me in any way.

Dont like the art styles

Dont like the music

Dont like the animations

Dont like the sound effects

Dont ike the combat

Dont like the quest content or writing

Dont like their use of textures lighting etc.

So basically nothing

If your saying the ONE up and coming game that might possibly not suck (Archage) means we are getting beat game design wise than thats a pretty silly statement.

You didn't read my whole post... The whole focus wasn't at all on ArcheAge or sandboxes which if you had read my whole post, it clearly even stated as much.

Sorry if I wasnt clear then, I was combining stuff from multiple responses to your original post.  I dont feel the East is doing anything but making annoying games based on my bullet points.  The final sentence was in response to someone saying yes we are losing it, look at Archage.

It's not just ArcheAge. Look at Age of Wushu, look at B&S, look at Black Desert, look at Mabinogi II: Arena, look at Project S... I'm hopeful for World of Darkness in the West, but that's about it.

I have looked at all the games you mentioned, and again see my original list.  I just dont like the way the East makes game.  The all play look and play like kids games.  Like in the 8 to 12 year old range.  And not just kids but kids that have grown up in the East.  There is just nothing there for me.  Allot of American kids today were raised on Eastern influenced cartoons and games, I was not.  So to me it just looks like kids stuff.

Originally posted by ObiClownobi
When you say Western, you must be referring to the US, disregarding the quality, the EU has produced EvE, Salem, MO and Darkfall, none, of which are like the standard US themeparks.

Europe often seems to be the forgotten part of the west in many of these discussions, which is a shame because the amount of variety in both MMOs and RPGs that come from Europe is amazing.

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Originally posted by Razeekster
"Where are they? Playing Eve?" Um, excuse me? I am one of these players and have zero interest in Eve so that is not true at all. I also am not interested in WoW or RIFT, I played Guild Wars 2 for a bit but realized it really wasn't that dramatically different and got bored of it soon afterwords.

There is indeed a fact an audience for these types of players. You don't see us because we don't just all play "Eve" like you seem to think.

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Originally posted by ObiClownobi
When you say Western, you must be referring to the US, disregarding the quality, the EU has produced EvE, Salem, MO and Darkfall, none, of which are like the standard US themeparks.

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Asian games look 10 times better than western games. They are grindy as hell and rely on RnG way too much though. If western games catch up to Asian games in pure eye candy, keep their chart and skill based game play they will run Asian games over. On the other side, if Asian games get away from the RnG and move toward loot tables and skill based, charted progress paths, they will eat western MMO's up.

Both sides have something people want. Both sides have something people want to avoid as well.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by ObiClownobi
When you say Western, you must be referring to the US, disregarding the quality, the EU has produced EvE, Salem, MO and Darkfall, none, of which are like the standard US themeparks.

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Do you really want to include Mortal Online in that list? It's certainly different, but it's also certainly a piece of cr@p.

 

Lol agreed.   Concepts were / are not bad but actual realistation / implementation is utter crap in MO.

Originally posted by free2play

Asian games look 10 times better than western games. They are grindy as hell and rely on RnG way too much though. If western games catch up to Asian games in pure eye candy, keep their chart and skill based game play they will run Asian games over. On the other side, if Asian games get away from the RnG and move toward loot tables and skill based, charted progress paths, they will eat western MMO's up.

Both sides have something people want. Both sides have something people want to avoid as well.

Originally posted by Rimmersman

Originally posted by free2play

Asian games look 10 times better than western games. They are grindy as hell and rely on RnG way too much though. If western games catch up to Asian games in pure eye candy, keep their chart and skill based game play they will run Asian games over. On the other side, if Asian games get away from the RnG and move toward loot tables and skill based, charted progress paths, they will eat western MMO's up.

Both sides have something people want. Both sides have something people want to avoid as well.

 

Ermm, Age Of Wushu has no classes or levels, it's skill based.

So was TSW but the skills were all vanilla versions of each other and it ended up being a gear grind.

Originally posted by free2play

Originally posted by Rimmersman

Originally posted by free2play

Asian games look 10 times better than western games. They are grindy as hell and rely on RnG way too much though. If western games catch up to Asian games in pure eye candy, keep their chart and skill based game play they will run Asian games over. On the other side, if Asian games get away from the RnG and move toward loot tables and skill based, charted progress paths, they will eat western MMO's up.

Both sides have something people want. Both sides have something people want to avoid as well.

 

Ermm, Age Of Wushu has no classes or levels, it's skill based.

So was TSW but the skills were all vanilla versions of each other and it ended up being a gear grind.

Originally posted by Razeekster

Originally posted by DiSpLiFF

I'm looking forward to ArcheAge as much as anyone. But, I wouldn't say anything positive about the game until it is actually released. It's unfortunate that the western market has gotten more and more casual, the worst case being GW2. However, I can't see myself playing a game like Lineage 2 (at release) grinding for months and months. I'm hoping ArcheAge will be some sort of compromise. 

 

I've studied ArcheAge in-depth for a long time, and it has everything the West has been asking for. I'm not judging it until I try it but I am very hopeful that it's what I've been waiting for. It has a lot to do in it that's for sure. You can sail a ship and have ship combat, build houses, sieges, dive underwater and explore (there is even diving gear to go treasure hunting, a feature I have never seen in an MMO), when crimes are commited by players you can actually be a detective and look for clues such as blood spatters or footprints and the criminal can be identified by these clues and taken to court and most likely thrown into jail. I literlly didn't even list half the things you can do I don't think.

 

But yeah, that's why I'm pretty hopeful for ArcheAge.

[2]

Sometimes i think AA is "so good to be true".

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by ObiClownobi
When you say Western, you must be referring to the US, disregarding the quality, the EU has produced EvE, Salem, MO and Darkfall, none, of which are like the standard US themeparks.

Europe often seems to be the forgotten part of the west in many of these discussions, which is a shame because the amount of variety in both MMOs and RPGs that come from Europe is amazing.

Like Black Gold Online which is literally getting zero press coverage.