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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is The West Getting Beat By The East?

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88 posts found
  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 2036

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  12/09/12 10:47:25 AM#21
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick

I was actually thinking about this tonight OP and I am forced to agree. Both Age of Wushu (Wulin) and Blade & Soul are very impressive games with innovative features and impressive production values. They are great examples and anything but just grinders. I honestly do not see a Western MMO available or in the works that can compete with either one right now.

 

I find many of the comments regarding lazy or babied game players of western nationality to be little more than silly, trollish, nationalistic drivel, unworthy of discussion...

 

As one poster noted, it is currently cheaper to make games in Asia with high production values. I would go further and note that they are not as conservative or afraid to invest in new concepts compared to the WOW clone glut in the west.

Pretty much what I think. And the sad part is how a lot of the West talks about how suckish the MMOs are from the East and then I have to say "What games does the West have that are so impressive?" Rift? WoW (which is 8 years old now)? GW2? I liked Guild Wars 2, but even with dynamic content it still feels the same as other Western MMOs. I just don't see a lot innovation here in the West.

Smile

  snapfusion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/11
Posts: 976

12/09/12 10:53:15 AM#22

I suppose if you are consumed by eastern culture then YES we are.  Personaly not a SINGLE game has come out of the east that appeals to me in any way.

Dont like the art styles

Dont like the music

Dont like the animations

Dont like the sound effects

Dont ike the combat

Dont like the quest content or writing

Dont like their use of textures lighting etc.

So basically nothing

If your saying the ONE up and coming game that might possibly not suck (Archage) means we are getting beat game design wise than thats a pretty silly statement.

  LadyEuphei

Novice Member

Joined: 4/16/12
Posts: 226

12/09/12 10:57:13 AM#23

Wouldn't it be better to see if ArcheAge is successful first? I mean we have seen semi sandboxs...sandboxy....sandboxish....vaguely sandbox-esque game before and they all fail hard and are more park than box and more theme than sand. I am putting my money on a smaller company getting a sandbox game out in the west before the east. 

*Im on team west*

GO JACOB! :p

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 2036

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  12/09/12 11:03:17 AM#24
Originally posted by snapfusion

I suppose if you are consumed by eastern culture then YES we are.  Personaly not a SINGLE game has come out of the east that appeals to me in any way.

Dont like the art styles

Dont like the music

Dont like the animations

Dont like the sound effects

Dont ike the combat

Dont like the quest content or writing

Dont like their use of textures lighting etc.

So basically nothing

If your saying the ONE up and coming game that might possibly not suck (Archage) means we are getting beat game design wise than thats a pretty silly statement.

You didn't read my whole post... The whole focus wasn't at all on ArcheAge or sandboxes which if you had read my whole post, it clearly even stated as much.

Smile

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/09/12 11:10:25 AM#25


Originally posted by Razeekster
ArcheAge is the first sandbox+themepark mixed game coming out soon in Korea. Yes there have been some sandbox games here in the West, but the quality of them has been piss poor. That's one thing that I noticed in general. Graphically speaking the East has us beat. Their games are far superior in the graphics department and I don't understand why. I believe that the West has the cabalities to be right on par with them in the graphics department.

It seems like the Eastern MMO industry is more accepting to funding AAA sandbox MMOs more so than the West now because another one is also being made in China called Project S. 

My whole focus is not meant to be on sandboxes, so you need to think that is what I'm trying to get at. I'm just noticing how the East is now developing less and less of what the West considers grindy games and going for more quality ones. I mean look at B&S and Age of Wushu. Those are also both two impressive games, with Age of Wushu introducing features that I don't think I've even heard of in other asian martial arts MMOs.

What does the West have going for it in 2013... The Elder Scrolls Online? No offense but I don't believe that MMO will be as successful as a lot of people seem to think. People seem to forget that most of the time when popular IPs get turned into MMOs they don't do well a lot of times (with the exception of LotRO maybe). Not only that but TESO isn't even adding the combat which it's famous for into the MMO version and I can't see it being wildly popular simply based on the lore.

The other things that the West have going for it are mostly unfinished projects backed up by Kickstarter, which until I see come to fruition I won't be putting much stock into.

What do you guys think? Is the East surpassing the West when it comes to the quality of MMOs? I myself am seeing less and less of asian grinders and more and more quality looking games coming from the East (the grinders I do see coming to the West from the East have already been in the East for 4+ years and so I don't count those).




The "East" is developing games for Asian audiences, and then getting additional profits in the West. The "West" is developing games for non-Asian audiences and then getting additional profits in the East.

If the Eastern developers are more accepting of something different, it's because their audience is more accepting of something different, not because they are more accepting of something different.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 2036

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  12/09/12 11:20:45 AM#26
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Razeekster
ArcheAge is the first sandbox+themepark mixed game coming out soon in Korea. Yes there have been some sandbox games here in the West, but the quality of them has been piss poor. That's one thing that I noticed in general. Graphically speaking the East has us beat. Their games are far superior in the graphics department and I don't understand why. I believe that the West has the cabalities to be right on par with them in the graphics department.

 

It seems like the Eastern MMO industry is more accepting to funding AAA sandbox MMOs more so than the West now because another one is also being made in China called Project S. 

My whole focus is not meant to be on sandboxes, so you need to think that is what I'm trying to get at. I'm just noticing how the East is now developing less and less of what the West considers grindy games and going for more quality ones. I mean look at B&S and Age of Wushu. Those are also both two impressive games, with Age of Wushu introducing features that I don't think I've even heard of in other asian martial arts MMOs.

What does the West have going for it in 2013... The Elder Scrolls Online? No offense but I don't believe that MMO will be as successful as a lot of people seem to think. People seem to forget that most of the time when popular IPs get turned into MMOs they don't do well a lot of times (with the exception of LotRO maybe). Not only that but TESO isn't even adding the combat which it's famous for into the MMO version and I can't see it being wildly popular simply based on the lore.

The other things that the West have going for it are mostly unfinished projects backed up by Kickstarter, which until I see come to fruition I won't be putting much stock into.

What do you guys think? Is the East surpassing the West when it comes to the quality of MMOs? I myself am seeing less and less of asian grinders and more and more quality looking games coming from the East (the grinders I do see coming to the West from the East have already been in the East for 4+ years and so I don't count those).




The "East" is developing games for Asian audiences, and then getting additional profits in the West. The "West" is developing games for non-Asian audiences and then getting additional profits in the East.

If the Eastern developers are more accepting of something different, it's because their audience is more accepting of something different, not because they are more accepting of something different.

 

I don't know what you mean. The West has been asking for these same features too. I just think the developers here in the West aren't willing to take as many risks. 

Smile

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 6436

12/09/12 11:21:51 AM#27
Originally posted by Abuz0r

Of course, we are the most lazy soceity on earth always waiting on someone else to do something that we're too lazy to do.

Oh geez don't start me on this rant.  I am 27 and everyone of my generation and younger thinks they were born with the promise of being succesful in life and not having to do anything to earn it.

On the contrary out of the top 12 countries whose people work the most hours per year, South Korea is the only Asian country.

Look at the actual data before jumping to conclusions:

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=LEVEL#

so not everyone in your generation feels like that only those in your circle

  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 4114

12/09/12 11:28:27 AM#28

Never played(yet) an eastern MMO that I really enjoy.  Except FFXI, but that's Japanese and a whole different ballgame and an already established IP.  Everything else is shoddy, boring and trivial and has no depth. 

That being said I am looking forward to the east breaking my opinion with games like ArcheAge and Bless and Black Forest, but until then, nothing has changed yet.  Even Age of Wushu which I thought would be the start of the change, just isn't as good as it looks in the vids.

http://www.twitch.tv/elockethemmoaddict

https://twitter.com/MMOAddicted

  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

12/09/12 11:32:34 AM#29
Some of the features in Age Of Wushu have not been seen in any MMO let alone Asia. Plus I would not put Age Of Wushu in the same category as Blade & Soul or any of your usual Asia style games. No over the top weapons childish characters , the game is based on feudal China, no elves or dwarfs in Age Of Wushu. Archeage and Age Of Wushu have features that western MMO devs seem scared to do or have given up on. Out of the two games it's Age Of Wushu that is the more sandbox of the two, no classes or levels, clan buildings and land ownership.

  Whitebeards

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 823

12/09/12 11:36:34 AM#30

West is getting beat by the east on basis of a MMO which is not even released yet? if i missed an underlying message in OP i apologise but what are these creterias on which west is being left behind? except for FFXI..all eastern MMOS i have played are complete and utter garbage. I wouldn't touch an eastern MMO with a 10 feet pole.

And this coming from someone who is of Japanese origin.

  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 4114

12/09/12 11:37:06 AM#31
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Some of the features in Age Of Wushu have not been seen in any MMO let alone Asia. Plus I would notput Age Of Wushuin the same category as Blade & Soul or any of your usual Asia style games. No over the top weapons childish charactes , the game is based on feudal China, no elves or dwarfs or oversized weapons in Age Of Wushu. Archeage and Age Of Wushu have features thatwwesternMMO ddevs seem scared to do or have given up on. Out of the two games it's Age Of Wushu that is the more sandbox of the two, no classes or levels, clan buildings and land ownership.

Don't get me wrong, I like Age of Wushu's underlying systems.  I just can't stand the UI and controls.  It's very anti mouse and keyboard movement/clicking hot bars of how I play in every other MMO since SWG.  Due to that, I won't be playing it.  It almost seems more suited for a controller, but I refuse to play an MMORPG with a controller on my PC.  That's what my consoles are for ;D  Oh and the translations so far are just horrible, but they still have time to polish that, IF they choose to, which seems to rarely happen with imports that aren't AAA companies.  I think Square-Enix is the only eastern company who truly knows how to translate their games and even then there is the odd remark or comment in their dialogs.

http://www.twitch.tv/elockethemmoaddict

https://twitter.com/MMOAddicted

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 2036

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  12/09/12 11:48:41 AM#32
Originally posted by elocke
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Some of the features in Age Of Wushu have not been seen in any MMO let alone Asia. Plus I would notput Age Of Wushuin the same category as Blade & Soul or any of your usual Asia style games. No over the top weapons childish charactes , the game is based on feudal China, no elves or dwarfs or oversized weapons in Age Of Wushu. Archeage and Age Of Wushu have features thatwwesternMMO ddevs seem scared to do or have given up on. Out of the two games it's Age Of Wushu that is the more sandbox of the two, no classes or levels, clan buildings and land ownership.

Don't get me wrong, I like Age of Wushu's underlying systems.  I just can't stand the UI and controls.  It's very anti mouse and keyboard movement/clicking hot bars of how I play in every other MMO since SWG.  Due to that, I won't be playing it.  It almost seems more suited for a controller, but I refuse to play an MMORPG with a controller on my PC.  That's what my consoles are for ;D  Oh and the translations so far are just horrible, but they still have time to polish that, IF they choose to, which seems to rarely happen with imports that aren't AAA companies.  I think Square-Enix is the only eastern company who truly knows how to translate their games and even then there is the odd remark or comment in their dialogs.

That's one of my nitpicks too. If you're making a game for the computer why the heck does it play better when used with a controller? Make it for other gaming systems if that's what you're going to do.

Smile

  DiSpLiFF

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/09
Posts: 611

12/09/12 11:57:18 AM#33

I'm looking forward to ArcheAge as much as anyone. But, I wouldn't say anything positive about the game until it is actually released. It's unfortunate that the western market has gotten more and more casual, the worst case being GW2. However, I can't see myself playing a game like Lineage 2 (at release) grinding for months and months. I'm hoping ArcheAge will be some sort of compromise. 

 

  Vunak23

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 660

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

12/09/12 12:08:29 PM#34
Originally posted by DiSpLiFF

I'm looking forward to ArcheAge as much as anyone. But, I wouldn't say anything positive about the game until it is actually released. It's unfortunate that the western market has gotten more and more casual, the worst case being GW2. However, I can't see myself playing a game like Lineage 2 (at release) grinding for months and months. I'm hoping ArcheAge will be some sort of compramise. 

 

Don't worry. ArcheAge is not a grind. Having played it myself I suspect the extremeist will hit max cap in a few days, while the average hardcore gamer it will take a few weeks. Its not grindy at all. A buddy and me were leveling together and we made it to level 20 in the weekend it was up (also couldn't play all that much because of the time difference and servers not being up 24/7). 

I am an old school gamer like my guildie and we both enjoyed AA very very much. Lots of sand to play with. 

~~~~~~

As for the OP. Yea Asian style games are pushing the envelope for Graphically intensive MMO's. B&S looks great, AA looks great, TERA looks great, that new game Black Desert looks amazing etc. 

We have our own games that look good over here in the west; ESO, TSW, AOC (environments), PS2. Perhaps its because most of those games in the east are utilizing CryEngine while we are trying to reinvent the wheel. We have the Unreal Engine but I don't see it being used hardly at all for MMO's in the west. I don't think we will either. I predict more Hero Engine games coming because of how cheap the licensing fee is. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 2036

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  12/09/12 12:16:34 PM#35
Originally posted by DiSpLiFF

I'm looking forward to ArcheAge as much as anyone. But, I wouldn't say anything positive about the game until it is actually released. It's unfortunate that the western market has gotten more and more casual, the worst case being GW2. However, I can't see myself playing a game like Lineage 2 (at release) grinding for months and months. I'm hoping ArcheAge will be some sort of compromise. 

 

I've studied ArcheAge in-depth for a long time, and it has everything the West has been asking for. I'm not judging it until I try it but I am very hopeful that it's what I've been waiting for. It has a lot to do in it that's for sure. You can sail a ship and have ship combat, build houses, sieges, dive underwater and explore (there is even diving gear to go treasure hunting, a feature I have never seen in an MMO), when crimes are commited by players you can actually be a detective and look for clues such as blood spatters or footprints and the criminal can be identified by these clues and taken to court and most likely thrown into jail. I literlly didn't even list half the things you can do I don't think.

 

But yeah, that's why I'm pretty hopeful for ArcheAge.

Smile

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/09/12 12:37:44 PM#36


Originally posted by Razeekster

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Razeekster ArcheAge is the first sandbox+themepark mixed game coming out soon in Korea. Yes there have been some sandbox games here in the West, but the quality of them has been piss poor. That's one thing that I noticed in general. Graphically speaking the East has us beat. Their games are far superior in the graphics department and I don't understand why. I believe that the West has the cabalities to be right on par with them in the graphics department.   It seems like the Eastern MMO industry is more accepting to funding AAA sandbox MMOs more so than the West now because another one is also being made in China called Project S.  My whole focus is not meant to be on sandboxes, so you need to think that is what I'm trying to get at. I'm just noticing how the East is now developing less and less of what the West considers grindy games and going for more quality ones. I mean look at B&S and Age of Wushu. Those are also both two impressive games, with Age of Wushu introducing features that I don't think I've even heard of in other asian martial arts MMOs. What does the West have going for it in 2013... The Elder Scrolls Online? No offense but I don't believe that MMO will be as successful as a lot of people seem to think. People seem to forget that most of the time when popular IPs get turned into MMOs they don't do well a lot of times (with the exception of LotRO maybe). Not only that but TESO isn't even adding the combat which it's famous for into the MMO version and I can't see it being wildly popular simply based on the lore. The other things that the West have going for it are mostly unfinished projects backed up by Kickstarter, which until I see come to fruition I won't be putting much stock into. What do you guys think? Is the East surpassing the West when it comes to the quality of MMOs? I myself am seeing less and less of asian grinders and more and more quality looking games coming from the East (the grinders I do see coming to the West from the East have already been in the East for 4+ years and so I don't count those).
The "East" is developing games for Asian audiences, and then getting additional profits in the West. The "West" is developing games for non-Asian audiences and then getting additional profits in the East. If the Eastern developers are more accepting of something different, it's because their audience is more accepting of something different, not because they are more accepting of something different.  
I don't know what you mean. The West has been asking for these same features too. I just think the developers here in the West aren't willing to take as many risks. 



This keeps getting brought up again and again, but it's just not true. Where are they? Playing Eve? Four hundred thousand people isn't enough to justify a twenty five million dollar development cost. Especially since those people are already playing a game they like. Where are the rest of them? On websites like this one?

There are on average two hundred people posting at any given time. Half of them like WoW, Rift and Guild Wars 2. That leaves a hundred people. There are two thousand lurkers at any given time. How many people is that on websites total? Even assuming all two thousand lurkers are all interested in games like ArcheAge or Wushu, that's what, ten thousand people? Where are the rest of them? You're still a couple million short.

The games will get made in Asia, where they will make their money, or fail like Tera did. Then they'll get released here, where they'll make some more money. They'll get released in Asia first because that's where the audience for those games exists. They'll get released here afterwards because there are enough people to justify releasing a game here after the development costs are already covered by releasing the games in Asia.

All the talk about the huge audience for sandbox style or hardcore Asian games is just that, talk. There's no proof that the audience exists anywhere outside the imaginations of the people who like those games.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

12/09/12 12:55:59 PM#37
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by elocke
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Some of the features in Age Of Wushu have not been seen in any MMO let alone Asia. Plus I would notput Age Of Wushuin the same category as Blade & Soul or any of your usual Asia style games. No over the top weapons childish charactes , the game is based on feudal China, no elves or dwarfs or oversized weapons in Age Of Wushu. Archeage and Age Of Wushu have features thatwwesternMMO ddevs seem scared to do or have given up on. Out of the two games it's Age Of Wushu that is the more sandbox of the two, no classes or levels, clan buildings and land ownership.

Don't get me wrong, I like Age of Wushu's underlying systems.  I just can't stand the UI and controls.  It's very anti mouse and keyboard movement/clicking hot bars of how I play in every other MMO since SWG.  Due to that, I won't be playing it.  It almost seems more suited for a controller, but I refuse to play an MMORPG with a controller on my PC.  That's what my consoles are for ;D  Oh and the translations so far are just horrible, but they still have time to polish that, IF they choose to, which seems to rarely happen with imports that aren't AAA companies.  I think Square-Enix is the only eastern company who truly knows how to translate their games and even then there is the odd remark or comment in their dialogs.

That's one of my nitpicks too. If you're making a game for the computer why the heck does it play better when used with a controller? Make it for other gaming systems if that's what you're going to do.

 

I never felt that it was more suited to a controller, in fact the above post is the first person I have read to say that. The UI takes some getting used to and translation of needs tweaking. After the first few hours it felt natural and was never an issue, if the UI and the translation is all that needs rounding off before release then it says a lot about just how good the game is. The features in the game blow western features out of the water just like Archeage has some great features. I'll have ten beta key's next week, anyone who wants to see for themselves can have one.

  Redemp

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1058

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

12/09/12 1:06:07 PM#38

 Thank you to the few people in this thread who were able to constructively look at the premise of this thread and discuss it without going into the incredibly hypocritical, hipster anti-american rhetoric. I'll leave it at that.

 On-Topic :

I don't think the East is beating the West in regards to mmo development, I don't think its possible for one hemisphere to beat the other in this regard. Like others have said the mmo's being made are being made for their respective markets, there is some sucess on both sides of the world for crossing into each others.

 

  Serenes

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/10
Posts: 358

12/09/12 1:24:51 PM#39
Originally posted by Redemp

 Thank you to the few people in this thread who were able to constructively look at the premise of this thread and discuss it without going into the incredibly hypocritical, hipster anti-american rhetoric. I'll leave it at that.

 On-Topic :

I don't think the East is beating the West in regards to mmo development, I don't think its possible for one hemisphere to beat the other in this regard. Like others have said the mmo's being made are being made for their respective markets, there is some sucess on both sides of the world for crossing into each others.

 

More easterners play western games then westerners play eastern MMOs.

 

I think that defines us as winning.

 

When our games appeal to them more then their games appeal to us.

 

World of Warcraft/League of Legends/StarCraft2 while not all MMO are online and have mass appeal in all Asian markets, name me one game that is nearly as played like this from the Asian Market?

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2548

World > Quest Progression

12/09/12 1:33:33 PM#40
The "East" certainly is kicking out more games, and ones with nice graphics, but hasn't that always been the case? The difference seems to be that there are a few with more substance than what is typically expected. The better graphics as a whole just means there are better engines available to purchase.

Korea, which is where a lot of Eastern MMOs come from, is very integrated with technology as a country. When you consider they have cafes with wall to wall people as a social hangout it's not surprising that more money is spent on games.

We'll have to see what 2013 brings. 2012 was the year of GW2 and TSW and I'm hardpressed to find any eastern games to compare them too. If EQN releases this next year we may just trump again.
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