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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Hero Engine 2 $99/year ~ Indy MMOs

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  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13825

12/07/12 11:40:04 PM#121
Originally posted by bishbosh
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by Suraknar

Hmm... while some of the more experienced people around here who are against the use of premade engines, are offering some valuable insight and information.

I still think that the spirit in which the OP is presentingthem is still valid and good. The premade engnes are a good start of the new people to get in to making a game. Not everyone can start coding their own engine just like that. And not everyone can make a game and grasp many of the notions that are involved. But everyone can learn and premade engines are a good way to learn in my opinion.

So unless some here have somethng to fear, i do not think that discouraging people from getting their feet wet with these engines which at 99$/year are a very affordable endeavor, is actually a good thing.

Many players have much better ideas than existing Devs (mainly due to constrtraints imposed on them by the industry), which these engines could help some to express without those constraints. It can only be good for the industry and I do not hink that there is anything to fear of.

I say anyone who ever wanted to put some of their Ideas to the test, go for it, pick one of these engines and let your creative juices guide you!

 

Don't read too much into criticism with pre-made engines.  They are industry standard for a very good reason.  Namely, building a game engine up from scratch is very time intensive, which means expensive to do.  I offered criticism for Hero Cloud not because I think building it yourself is a better choice, just that a lot of people go into this not realize just how monumental a task creating a game really is, regardless of the engine used.

Licensing game engines may be common, but launching an MMORPG on what is basically a trial version of a game engine that doesn't let you touch the source code?  Have any games done that and succeeded, ever?

-----

As for my own engine, it's not AAA graphics quality by any means.  Here's a few screenshots I just took:

Looks decent enough to my eyes.  The weird cylinder in all of the screenshots is my placeholder character for use in testing collision detection, and won't be a part of the final game.

Also, at around 300 KB, each of those screenshots is larger than the entire game itself is at the moment.

opengl or directx?

also is directx free to use?

OpenGL 4.2 currently.  If I ever finish it, I'll eventually port it back to OpenGL 3.2, but no further.

I have no idea about DirectX.  I know that it's proprietary to Microsoft, but I think their plan on making money off of DirectX is by making it Windows-only so everyone has to buy Windows to play DirectX games.  I don't think they're trying to charge developers for it directly, though you will have to pay for Visual Studio if you're using that, and I'm not sure if you can use DirectX without using Visual Studio.

OpenGL is definitely free to use, though.  So is Eclipse, which is what I'm making it in.  JOGL (OpenGL bindings for Java) is also free, and open source, even.  And yes, I'm using Java, not C++.  It was kind of a haphazard decision, as when I started, I expected the project to go basically nowhere, and was surprised to learn that it was a lot easier than I expected.

  Castillle

Forum Bunny

Joined: 10/24/10
Posts: 2682

12/08/12 12:09:23 AM#122

Visual Studio express is free * (corrected by bishbosh)

DirectX is free as well.  And tbh youre not losing much at all by going java.  At least you wont have to go through the hellish api that is the win32 api -.- god forsaken win32 api was hell the first time I tried using it.

Edit 2: dont expect to use DX11.1.  You need to pay for the pro version of ual studio 2012 to be able to make anything other than metro apps.  Stick to 2010 express if you were to use visual studio and want to make anything other than metro apps

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  bishbosh

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/21/11
Posts: 401

12/08/12 12:21:53 AM#123
visual studio express is free for commercial/any use
  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13825

12/08/12 12:53:06 AM#124
Originally posted by Castillle

Visual Studio express is free * (corrected by bishbosh)

DirectX is free as well.  And tbh youre not losing much at all by going java.  At least you wont have to go through the hellish api that is the win32 api -.- god forsaken win32 api was hell the first time I tried using it.

Edit 2: dont expect to use DX11.1.  You need to pay for the pro version of ual studio 2012 to be able to make anything other than metro apps.  Stick to 2010 express if you were to use visual studio and want to make anything other than metro apps

Internet lore seems to have it that C++ is a little faster than Java on CPU-side things, but not massively so.  My understanding, which could easily be wrong, is that Java has a little bit of overhead for just-in-time compilation, and C++ doesn't have that.

Regardless, the real question is whether it's fast enough.  When I can get 50 frames per second on an AMD E-350 based laptop/netbook and that's GPU-bound, not CPU-bound, I think Java is fast enough.  And that's outside of cities, so the game world is basically complete except for adding mobs.

A lot of processor performance is how well you can scale to more CPU cores.  Give me 20 CPU cores clocked at something stupidly low like 500 MHz (so as not to immediately be GPU-bound) and I can put them all to good use.  Java has some very nice threading tools, so there's no problem there.  I'd assume that C++ has some nice threading tools, too, but I don't know.

  cylon8

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/07
Posts: 314

12/08/12 12:56:45 AM#125
the repopulation is using the hero engine and just from watching their dev videos you could tell bioware had no idea how to code for the engine....the engine itself got a bad rap for biowares incompetence. It's not a flawless engine however it does alot of things very well. Hero is trying to be the unity for mmo devs...they may or may not succeed.

so say we all

  User Deleted
12/08/12 1:27:44 AM#126
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by asmkm22
 

Don't read too much into criticism with pre-made engines.  They are industry standard for a very good reason.  Namely, building a game engine up from scratch is very time intensive, which means expensive to do.  I offered criticism for Hero Cloud not because I think building it yourself is a better choice, just that a lot of people go into this not realize just how monumental a task creating a game really is, regardless of the engine used.

Licensing game engines may be common, but launching an MMORPG on what is basically a trial version of a game engine that doesn't let you touch the source code?  Have any games done that and succeeded, ever?

 

It's all about target audiences.  The Hero Cloud thing is designed to be more of a hobby engine that's cheap enough for anyone to try out, but still robust enough to actually make a game with, provided you have access to the proper art assets.  More importantly, it can be a stepping stone for licensing the full Hero Engine source code and migrating your project to it if you so choose.

All in all, it's a pretty good deal.  That said, of course there's going to be no AAA studios trying to launch a game on Hero Cloud.  That doesn't mean a smaller "studio" couldn't put it to good use, with little risk involved.

The same can be said for any of the "free" licenses of various engines, like UDK.  The big selling point for Hero Cloud, in particular is that they provide a very strong set of world building tools designed around MMO workflows, rather than something like UDK, which has great tools for FPS stuff.

For it's target audience, Hero Cloud is a much better prospect for a small dev studio with little to no real funding, looking to try and create the game they have in mind, for practically nothing.

  Castillle

Forum Bunny

Joined: 10/24/10
Posts: 2682

12/08/12 1:43:31 AM#127

The main difference between java and c++ is that you have more control over memory in c++. 

And the biggest dealbreaker is if that you can not use a data driven approach in java because arrays are not necessarily stored in contiguous memory location.  Not a problem considering you probably wont be using data oriented paradigm except for when you code for consoles or you really have nowhere else to optimize with the OO paradigm and you completely bottleneck on your memory speed.

And thats not me saying Java sucks at all.  Java works well for 90% of the stuff. Unless you were trying to make some state of the art ID tech/ cryengine/udk - like tech, dont bother thinking "i shouldve gone c++..."

CPU speed is hardly relevant because of JIT.

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  rounner

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/06
Posts: 563

12/08/12 3:07:15 AM#128
Typical mmo engine discussion, obsessed with clients and graphics, no idea about server side.
  GazthSonika

Novice Member

Joined: 12/08/12
Posts: 20

12/08/12 5:39:12 AM#129

Whatever the case, I just hope that the Hero Engine shines on TRP, I mean who's got money to spend millions on an engine(from the Indy group I mean)?

 

GS

  TsaboHavoc

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/11
Posts: 340

12/08/12 7:30:33 AM#130
i dont know jackshit about this topic, but imo, if u want to make a game with unseen, unique and complex stuff, its best to create ur own shit to mess with it.
  hfztt

Elite Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 703

12/08/12 8:02:43 AM#131

$99 / year

AND

Autodesk Max or Maya 2011 or later, x32 or x64 (According to thier own minimum specs.)

Its really the last part that kills the idea.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13825

12/08/12 1:05:31 PM#132
Originally posted by hfztt

$99 / year

AND

Autodesk Max or Maya 2011 or later, x32 or x64 (According to thier own minimum specs.)

Its really the last part that kills the idea.

Where did you think the art assets were going to come from?  Microsoft Paint?

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

12/08/12 1:49:48 PM#133
Originally posted by Quizzical

Licensing game engines may be common, but launching an MMORPG on what is basically a trial version of a game engine that doesn't let you touch the source code?  Have any games done that and succeeded, ever?

No one has succeeded that way because no one does that. However, starting with a trial engine and reaching a point where you say "Ok, this is doable. Let's move forward" and licensing the engine isn't all that uncommon. It's actually a rather sound approach for an indie.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13825

12/08/12 2:03:36 PM#134
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Quizzical

Licensing game engines may be common, but launching an MMORPG on what is basically a trial version of a game engine that doesn't let you touch the source code?  Have any games done that and succeeded, ever?

No one has succeeded that way because no one does that. However, starting with a trial engine and reaching a point where you say "Ok, this is doable. Let's move forward" and licensing the engine isn't all that uncommon. It's actually a rather sound approach for an indie.

Fine, fine, but if you're planning on going that route, you'd better have the budget to license the full engine and get access to the source code.  And in that case, it doesn't particularly matter whether the trial version was $99/year or $999/year or $9999/year.

  User Deleted
12/08/12 3:08:48 PM#135
Originally posted by hfztt

$99 / year

AND

Autodesk Max or Maya 2011 or later, x32 or x64 (According to thier own minimum specs.)

Its really the last part that kills the idea.

Technically, you don't need that.  you could purchase art assets to import into it if you really wanted.  But yeah, like the other guy said, where do you think that stuff would come from?

  bishbosh

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/21/11
Posts: 401

12/08/12 5:29:05 PM#136

blender is reasonable free alternative to maya/3dsmax. you are probs going to need to buy photoshop for textures. 

but honestly if you are making a mmorpg and having difficulty coughing up a couple of thousands for software you probably shouldnt be making an mmorpg.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3460

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

12/08/12 5:32:26 PM#137


Originally posted by bishbosh
blender is reasonable free alternative to maya/3dsmax. you are probs going to need to buy photoshop for textures.

Paint.net Is an excellent substitute for Photoshop.

Have to agree tho, If you don't have a couple of thousand reserved for development you probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13825

12/08/12 5:38:16 PM#138
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by bishbosh
blender is reasonable free alternative to maya/3dsmax. you are probs going to need to buy photoshop for textures.

 

Paint.net Is an excellent substitute for Photoshop.

Have to agree tho, If you don't have a couple of thousand reserved for development you probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Maybe you can make your textures that way.  How about your vertex data?  You do want characters that are a little more complex than a 2D rectangle floating around in space, don't you?

And how about a graphical interface that lets you see what textures look like on your models as you're creating them?  Can paint.net do that?  Can Photoshop?

Heavy use of tessellation makes it practical to type out your little bit of vertex data as source code without needing any sort of graphical interface.  But that's not an option with Hero Engine 2, so your vertex data needs to come from somewhere.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3460

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

12/08/12 5:42:49 PM#139


Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by bishbosh blender is reasonable free alternative to maya/3dsmax. you are probs going to need to buy photoshop for textures.
  Paint.net Is an excellent substitute for Photoshop. Have to agree tho, If you don't have a couple of thousand reserved for development you probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
Maybe you can make your textures that way.  How about your vertex data?  You do want characters that are a little more complex than a 2D rectangle floating around in space, don't you?

And how about a graphical interface that lets you see what textures look like on your models as you're creating them?  Can paint.net do that?  Can Photoshop?

Heavy use of tessellation makes it practical to type out your little bit of vertex data as source code without needing any sort of graphical interface.  But that's not an option with Hero Engine 2, so your vertex data needs to come from somewhere.


Now, I just commented on a free alternative to photoshop...i didnt really comment on the feasibility of using just the hero engine for $99...

Correct me if i'm wrong but vertex data is created by the modeling program then read into the vertex buffer array as vertices?

I would speculate that using something like blender in conjunction with paint dot net would be more then enough to create working, highly desirable models. There both open sourced, With many, many plugins.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13825

12/08/12 5:48:46 PM#140
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by bishbosh blender is reasonable free alternative to maya/3dsmax. you are probs going to need to buy photoshop for textures.
  Paint.net Is an excellent substitute for Photoshop. Have to agree tho, If you don't have a couple of thousand reserved for development you probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
Maybe you can make your textures that way.  How about your vertex data?  You do want characters that are a little more complex than a 2D rectangle floating around in space, don't you?

 

And how about a graphical interface that lets you see what textures look like on your models as you're creating them?  Can paint.net do that?  Can Photoshop?

Heavy use of tessellation makes it practical to type out your little bit of vertex data as source code without needing any sort of graphical interface.  But that's not an option with Hero Engine 2, so your vertex data needs to come from somewhere.


 

Now, I just commented on a free alternative to photoshop...i didnt really comment on the feasibility of using just the hero engine for $99...

Correct me if i'm wrong but vertex data is created by the modeling program then read into the vertex buffer array as vertices?

Maybe paint.net is a perfectly good alternative to Photoshop.  I have no idea.  But it's not a perfectly good alternative to Maya, because neither is Photoshop.  If you want to do 3D graphics the way that it's traditionally been done, then you need a modeling program to create your vertex data.  Such as Maya.

Blender, on the other hand, might be able to.  I don't know.  I'm not an artist.  But it sure sounds like Hero Engine is set up to work with Maya and not Blender.

Of course, one of the reasons I like tessellation is that it lets you skip that.  But I haven't tried animating stuff yet, so I might run into problems later.

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