Originally posted by elitero

 

---

Originally posted by bcbully

---

Originally posted by Greyhooff

---

Originally posted by bcbully

---

  Hey you're the guy saying WoW is an e-sport. It is not. How about checking your facts with MLG, ESL or any e-sports community.  

---

There you go again. Not telling the whole truth. WoW was with MLG for years. It was dropped in 2010. Blizzard still host paid tournaments, and it's still covered by just about all the esports sites. 

 

 

Do you really think GW2 will ever produce the same rich Esport history? Ehh doesn't matter. I don't have to be the one to rain on your parade. Carry on.

---

 

[mod edit]

ok maybe not "just about all" any more, been awhile since I looked....

We can agree though, that -

1. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money has been won while Arena was hosted by MLG, and after MLG.

2. The top raiding guilds are still sponsored year round.  

3. WoW is still played professionally for the prize money and the sponsorships

WoW meets the definition of Esport. It is not covered by the "major e-sports sites" like it used to be. At this time GW2 has a long way to go to even get where WoW is currently at on a esports level. 

It's pretty amazing that blizzard was able to pull it off for so long without separate pve and pvp.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by elitero

 

---

Originally posted by bcbully

---

Originally posted by Greyhooff

---

Originally posted by bcbully

---

  Hey you're the guy saying WoW is an e-sport. It is not. How about checking your facts with MLG, ESL or any e-sports community.  

---

There you go again. Not telling the whole truth. WoW was with MLG for years. It was dropped in 2010. Blizzard still host paid tournaments, and it's still covered by just about all the esports sites. 

 

 

Do you really think GW2 will ever produce the same rich Esport history? Ehh doesn't matter. I don't have to be the one to rain on your parade. Carry on.

---

 [mod edit]

ok maybe not "just about all" any more, been awhile since I looked....

 

We can agree though, that -

1. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money has been won while Arena was hosted by MLG, and after MLG.

2. The top raiding guilds are still sponsored year round.  

3. WoW is still played professionally for the prize money and the sponsorships

 

WoW meets the definition of Esport. It is not covered by the "major e-sports sites" like it used to be. At this time GW2 has a long way to go to even get where WoW is currently at on a esports level. 

 

It's pretty amazing that blizzard was able to pull it off for so long without separate pve and pvp.

Lets be honest, for real this time. WoW isn't an esport. It was at one point on the mayor esports tournament list because it's wow and because it's blizzard. But it got removed because it was like fitting a round peg in a square. It's a game that is not meant for esport.

GW2 is just a couple of months old and shows tons of promise as an esport. The problem around here is that the vast mayority only play a couple of pvp matches in random pick ups, at most get to rank 20 and then come here saying it's a mess. If they would actually get a group of people together and play paid tourneys they would see where the esport actually would take place.

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by bcbully

 

Lets be honest, for real this time. WoW isn't an esport. It was at one point on the mayor esports tournament list because it's wow and because it's blizzard. But it got removed because it was like fitting a round peg in a square. It's a game that is not meant for esport.

 

GW2 is just a couple of months old and shows tons of promise as an esport. The problem around here is that the vast mayority only play a couple of pvp matches in random pick ups, at most get to rank 20 and then come here saying it's a mess. If they would actually get a group of people together and play paid tourneys they would see where the esport actually would take place.

 

We can debate what is and what isn't an esport.  There will be points on both sides.

I curious why you feel GW2 shows promise, and WoW who has been, is fitting a round peg in a square hole. 

I feel that mmorpg combat in general may fit the round peg, square whole.

---

Originally posted by bcbully

---

Originally posted by Kuppa

---

Originally posted by bcbully

---

 

---

---

Lets be honest, for real this time. WoW isn't an esport. It was at one point on the mayor esports tournament list because it's wow and because it's blizzard. But it got removed because it was like fitting a round peg in a square. It's a game that is not meant for esport.   GW2 is just a couple of months old and shows tons of promise as an esport. The problem around here is that the vast mayority only play a couple of pvp matches in random pick ups, at most get to rank 20 and then come here saying it's a mess. If they would actually get a group of people together and play paid tourneys they would see where the esport actually would take place.  

---

We can debate what is and what isn't an esport.  There will be points on both sides.

 

I curious why you feel GW2 shows promise, and WoW who has been, is fitting a round peg in a square hole. 

 

I feel that mmorpg combat in general may fit the round peg, square whole.

---

I am curious why you feel to keep posting about this over and over when WoW was indeed kicked out of e-sport and you think since they are running their own tornament it makes it an e-sport.

It almost feels like that you want to jump on any negative point against GW2 and just side with that without even thinking about what you are saying. I mean I have been seeing this for months now not just today or yesterday.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by bcbully

 

Lets be honest, for real this time. WoW isn't an esport. It was at one point on the mayor esports tournament list because it's wow and because it's blizzard. But it got removed because it was like fitting a round peg in a square. It's a game that is not meant for esport.

 

GW2 is just a couple of months old and shows tons of promise as an esport. The problem around here is that the vast mayority only play a couple of pvp matches in random pick ups, at most get to rank 20 and then come here saying it's a mess. If they would actually get a group of people together and play paid tourneys they would see where the esport actually would take place.

 

We can debate what is and what isn't an esport.  There will be points on both sides.

 

I curious why you feel GW2 shows promise, and WoW who has been, is fitting a round peg in a square hole. 

 

I feel that mmorpg combat in general may fit the round peg, square whole.

Clearly BCBully you haven't PVPed much in WoW or are very biased, or you would know why WoW will never be an esport, and even when Blizzard pushed it, all the esports pros laughed at the attempt. 

This is what Zechs from SK gaming (a WoW arena vet) said:

"In all honesty, WoW was always the spotty, red-haired cousin that never quite fit in.

Even 80% of the people who do play it think that PvP is a joke

On top of that, the game has never been properly balanced and, in hindsight, I’m not sure Blizzard ever honestly tried to balance arenas correctly."

As a multi-glad myself, this rings 100% true: WoW's meta is fundamentally PVE, uncompetitive, and class balance is a ridiculous merry-go-round of overpowered gibberish. 

GW2 shows huge promise in this area.

It is already the most balanced MMO and shows real signs of prioritising balance and competitiveness in its PVP.

All they need is to roll out the esports features and I am certain in a few months we'll be looking at the first professional GW2 teams, paid and sponsored to PVP in MLG, ESL etc.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by bcbully

 

Lets be honest, for real this time. WoW isn't an esport. It was at one point on the mayor esports tournament list because it's wow and because it's blizzard. But it got removed because it was like fitting a round peg in a square. It's a game that is not meant for esport.

 

GW2 is just a couple of months old and shows tons of promise as an esport. The problem around here is that the vast mayority only play a couple of pvp matches in random pick ups, at most get to rank 20 and then come here saying it's a mess. If they would actually get a group of people together and play paid tourneys they would see where the esport actually would take place.

 

We can debate what is and what isn't an esport.  There will be points on both sides.

 

I curious why you feel GW2 shows promise, and WoW who has been, is fitting a round peg in a square hole. 

 

I feel that mmorpg combat in general may fit the round peg, square whole.

I believe GW2 shows promise because like other prominent esport games its meta is limited which brings balance. Look at LoL for example, you only get 4 skills and 2 summoner spells. Look at SC2, it only has 3 races when most other RTS games have tons. What this helps with is helping keep a balance which is what all esports are about. WoW wasn't created with esports in mind.

It also boast solid core mechanics, which is super important for esports. What do I mean by that? Jumping feels right, moving feels right, the game doesn't feel clunky, the skills all have a role, specifically in pvp.

One thing they might still need to work on is "watchability". They need to make sure it's fun to watch, for that they need to bring in a spectator mode which they said they will. They also need streamers to hop on board.

BTW, I suggest you watch this: http://www.funsponge.net/2012/12/arenanet-on-pvp/

Their head is in the right place.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

 

---

Originally posted by Greyhooff

I like my sig. I've had it for a long time. 

 

Fanboys of any game really bother me (all fanboys are also "haters", since they hate other games, it's all very tribal)

---

[mod edit]

Here's the thing - I loved WoW back in 2004-2008. It was a genuinely fantastic game in that era, bear in mind we were all playing EQ back then, and that was very very primitive with awful gameplay.

I wasn't a WoW fanboy - I merely acknowledged how good the game was, how much potential it had and how it made EQ look like antiquated trash. 

At launch, WoW was riddled with bugs, exploit, duping, lootstuck bug, unplayable areas, ridiculous class balance, server outages etc that lasted the whole of its first year... but those of us who weren't fanboying EQ looked past that and realised we had something very special in WoW. We knew it would do fantastically well, despite what the EQ purists believed.

Such is progress.

The same progress is evident with GW2. Just like back in those EQ v WoW days, you had the EQ fanboys who were stuck in the past and defended "their game" with gusto and refused to move on. A year or two later, they had moved on, it just took them a while.

You're mistaking fanboyism for acknowledgement of when a game makes genuine moves forward that makes older games look, well, older.

In GW2, we have the first MMO capable of being an e-sport, with a solid meta, balanced classes and great gameplay and depth.

In MMO world, 3-4 million players (the total NA+EU population of WoW) is huge. But for games like LoL, we're talking 100 million summoners worldwide. That a MMO could reach that level of ubiquity and mainstream-ness is very exciting.

Think ahead.

This is all about opinions, and mine is that GW2 is pretty much dead already, and in 2014 nobody will even remember this game exists.

Some of the people posting here will be excited about something else, and the cycle will continue.

Originally posted by Greyhooff

Originally posted by Xiaoki

 

---

Originally posted by Greyhooff

I like my sig. I've had it for a long time. 

 

Fanboys of any game really bother me (all fanboys are also "haters", since they hate other games, it's all very tribal)

---

[mod edit]

 

Here's the thing - I loved WoW back in 2004-2008. It was a genuinely fantastic game in that era, bear in mind we were all playing EQ back then, and that was very very primitive with awful gameplay.

I wasn't a WoW fanboy - I merely acknowledged how good the game was, how much potential it had and how it made EQ look like antiquated trash. 

At launch, WoW was riddled with bugs, exploit, duping, lootstuck bug, unplayable areas, ridiculous class balance, server outages etc that lasted the whole of its first year... but those of us who weren't fanboying EQ looked past that and realised we had something very special in WoW. We knew it would do fantastically well, despite what the EQ purists believed.

Such is progress.

The same progress is evident with GW2. Just like back in those EQ v WoW days, you had the EQ fanboys who were stuck in the past and defended "their game" with gusto and refused to move on. A year or two later, they had moved on, it just took them a while.

You're mistaking fanboyism for acknowledgement of when a game makes genuine moves forward that makes older games look, well, older.

In GW2, we have the first MMO capable of being an e-sport, with a solid meta, balanced classes and great gameplay and depth.

In MMO world, 3-4 million players (the total NA+EU population of WoW) is huge. But for games like LoL, we're talking 100 million summoners worldwide. That a MMO could reach that level of ubiquity and mainstream-ness is very exciting.

Think ahead.

You can't possibly think GW2 is to WoW what WoW was to EQ2. WoW was a revolution in gaming, nothing too innovative, but a revolution nonetheless. GW2 so far proved nothing, it's a shinny new thing, but that would be pretty much it.

Originally posted by Greyhooff

Originally posted by bcbully

 

Hey you're the guy saying WoW is an e-sport. It is not.

How about checking your facts with MLG, ESL or any e-sports community.

However, for GW2, here's the words of ESL, taken a few days ago, 29 November 2012:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/76323-esl-to-pick-up-gw2-and-guru-sotg-reminder/

ESL.eu's Admin Staff Member Peli recently posted on reddit that they are indeed thinking about picking up Guild Wars 2 to be a part of their e-sport leagues. This would mean a huge deal for Guild Wars 2 e-Sport scene and could possibly be the beginning of something great!

They want the community to give them feedback on this idea so be sure to drop by and let them know just how much we want this!

"I'm Peli from ESL.eu Admin Staff. 

We are thinking about opening a Guild Wars 2 section on ESL.eu. To make it happen, we need few things.

etc etc"

Have you even read the feedback from the article you posted?  These are GW2 players saying No, the game is not ready for e-sports.  Its great that its on the horizon for ESL and Anet, but the game itself isn't ready for e-sports.  Players, players interested in spvp, are saying its not ready.  How much more of a sign do you need?

I'VE been playing GW2 since release, doing ONLY SPVP, whether it be hotjoin or tournaments, or simply dueling people in a spvp map (NO DUELING IN THE GAME STILL LOOOOOOL).  I know the game isn't ready for E-sports and I doubt it will even have the community support to be successful if it was featured in tournaments.

Lets be honest: mmorpgs are not ideal for e-sports.  They are simply not viewer friendly.  Meanwhile, you can watch a game of SC2 or Dota and get a good sense of what is going on, even if you haven't played before. 

For WoW, GW2, and any other potential mmorpg E-sport, only people who have played the game a lot will know what is going on.  Besdies, GW2's pvp is a clusterfuck.  Watch how difficult it is to spectate WoW's arena 3v3 and then change that to 5v5 with no healers, everybody spamming damage attacks, and a shit ton of conditions flying around...thats GW2.

I like HappyJacks rants on class balance, he plays an elementalist, poor guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ&list=UUqpWfKAHMihI0ATOFMxiotw&index=7

Originally posted by Faelsun

I like HappyJacks rants on class balance, he plays an elementalist, poor guy.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ&list=UUqpWfKAHMihI0ATOFMxiotw&index=7

This is what I find so fun about GW2.

Elementalist is arguably the strongest class in the game right now. Yet HappyJacks (and you, presumably) think they're weak.

It's the perfect illustration as to why GW2's PVP is a game of skill and how the skill gap is huge even between above average and top end players.

You want to see some amazing PVP, watch this:

http://youtu.be/lXz5nVpS3Ds?t=1m16s

An elementalist who wins a 1v...5-8? Something like that. Pure skill. You can sort of tell the guy playing was kind of "in the zone" during this fight. His opponents aren't glass cannons who die in 2 seconds either, they're not playing badly.

Insane.

Originally posted by Greyhooff

Originally posted by Faelsun

I like HappyJacks rants on class balance, he plays an elementalist, poor guy.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ&list=UUqpWfKAHMihI0ATOFMxiotw&index=7

 

This is what I find so fun about GW2.

Elementalist is arguably the strongest class in the game right now. Yet HappyJacks (and you, presumably) think they're weak.

It's the perfect illustration as to why GW2's PVP is a game of skill and how the skill gap is huge even between above average and top end players.

You want to see some amazing PVP, watch this:

http://youtu.be/lXz5nVpS3Ds?t=1m16s

An elementalist who wins a 1v...5-8? Something like that. Pure skill. You can sort of tell the guy playing was kind of "in the zone" during this fight. His opponents aren't glass cannons who die in 2 seconds either, they're not playing badly.

Insane.

 

No happyjacks main gripe is the ease in which thieves get the same dps out of one button compared to the link you showed of an elementalist having to work for it.  There will always be a gap between average, good and great players no matter how one deminsional the pvp is. I didn't find it all that amazing thats a pretty powerful pre nerf build as well, but hell I could hold off 3 people with my heavy dps trap ranger and I wasn't even a bunker build and I have seen plenty of other people outclass a few at once, especially a few Mesmers I have seen. It doesn't make the pvp good, looks like more of the same spammy dps garbage I got tired of doing. You can get into a zone especially if you are better than they are and the match ups are good, hell I have pulled top scores with a ranger against whole teams of Mesmer/thieves because I was  set up for that, but I never though it was all that hard, GW2 is just a dps combo numbers game.

Originally posted by fixif

Originally posted by Greyhooff

Originally posted by Xiaoki

 

---

Originally posted by Greyhooff

I like my sig. I've had it for a long time. 

 

Fanboys of any game really bother me (all fanboys are also "haters", since they hate other games, it's all very tribal)

---

[mod edit]

 

Here's the thing - I loved WoW back in 2004-2008. It was a genuinely fantastic game in that era, bear in mind we were all playing EQ back then, and that was very very primitive with awful gameplay.

I wasn't a WoW fanboy - I merely acknowledged how good the game was, how much potential it had and how it made EQ look like antiquated trash. 

At launch, WoW was riddled with bugs, exploit, duping, lootstuck bug, unplayable areas, ridiculous class balance, server outages etc that lasted the whole of its first year... but those of us who weren't fanboying EQ looked past that and realised we had something very special in WoW. We knew it would do fantastically well, despite what the EQ purists believed.

Such is progress.

The same progress is evident with GW2. Just like back in those EQ v WoW days, you had the EQ fanboys who were stuck in the past and defended "their game" with gusto and refused to move on. A year or two later, they had moved on, it just took them a while.

You're mistaking fanboyism for acknowledgement of when a game makes genuine moves forward that makes older games look, well, older.

In GW2, we have the first MMO capable of being an e-sport, with a solid meta, balanced classes and great gameplay and depth.

In MMO world, 3-4 million players (the total NA+EU population of WoW) is huge. But for games like LoL, we're talking 100 million summoners worldwide. That a MMO could reach that level of ubiquity and mainstream-ness is very exciting.

Think ahead.

 

You can't possibly think GW2 is to WoW what WoW was to EQ2. WoW was a revolution in gaming, nothing too innovative, but a revolution nonetheless. GW2 so far proved nothing, it's a shinny new thing, but that would be pretty much it.

We basically have the same scenario going on here. WoW released to critical acclaim. Reviewers saw it as a great step forward for MMOs, but some gamers denied it for what it was. Of course, when the clones start coming they could no longer deny what WoW has brought to the genre. Now we have this description of WoW that is a collection of already existing features, but improved and polished to levels above its competition.

GW2 so far has not really proven anything because it hasn't been cloned yet. It's still too new, but right now what it has is the backing of the many critics who see GW2 a step forward for MMOs.

Originally posted by Greyhooff

Originally posted by Faelsun

I like HappyJacks rants on class balance, he plays an elementalist, poor guy.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ&list=UUqpWfKAHMihI0ATOFMxiotw&index=7

 

This is what I find so fun about GW2.

Elementalist is arguably the strongest class in the game right now. Yet HappyJacks (and you, presumably) think they're weak.

It's the perfect illustration as to why GW2's PVP is a game of skill and how the skill gap is huge even between above average and top end players.

You want to see some amazing PVP, watch this:

http://youtu.be/lXz5nVpS3Ds?t=1m16s

An elementalist who wins a 1v...5-8? Something like that. Pure skill. You can sort of tell the guy playing was kind of "in the zone" during this fight. His opponents aren't glass cannons who die in 2 seconds either, they're not playing badly.

Insane.

 

He's exploiting.

I'm kidding, he's playing a thief.

Originally posted by Greyhooff

Originally posted by Faelsun

I like HappyJacks rants on class balance, he plays an elementalist, poor guy.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ&list=UUqpWfKAHMihI0ATOFMxiotw&index=7

 

This is what I find so fun about GW2.

Elementalist is arguably the strongest class in the game right now. Yet HappyJacks (and you, presumably) think they're weak.

It's the perfect illustration as to why GW2's PVP is a game of skill and how the skill gap is huge even between above average and top end players.

You want to see some amazing PVP, watch this:

http://youtu.be/lXz5nVpS3Ds?t=1m16s

An elementalist who wins a 1v...5-8? Something like that. Pure skill. You can sort of tell the guy playing was kind of "in the zone" during this fight. His opponents aren't glass cannons who die in 2 seconds either, they're not playing badly.

Insane.

 

Uh..did you actually see when happyjacks posted that video?  Sept. 17th.  Back then, thieves were insanely OP (in part because of a stealth bug) and elementalist were weak.  Since then, thieves have received a steady amount of nerfs and elementalist a steady amount of buffs.  NOW, elementalist are one of the strongest classes in game, especially since their downed state was reworked.