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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » 2012 Reflections

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56 posts found
  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

12/07/12 5:04:11 PM#21
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon
For example:

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27416/Going_Free_Boosts_Turbines_DDO_Revenues_500_Percent.php#.UMJiQXc-Oa8

"Going free-to-play is paying off for Turbine, which says its Dungeons and Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited has gained over one million new players" ... huge increase in population


 

It is interesting, and I suspect relevant, that we still constantly hear about that news report from nearly three years ago. Has anyone heard any announcements more recently than early 2010 about how well D&DO was doing? All the signs point to an initial burst of enthusiasm when they first made it free to play.. followed by a rapid dropoff back to where it was previously.

DDO just released an expansion in 2012, so i doubt they are doing badly.

However, the point is that F2P does change behavior, and increase population/revenue. You can look up other reports. I believe F2P also improve on LOTRO.

It is not a accident that F2P has increased its market share against p2p in 2011.

Seems like f2p is really helping business...

http://www.gamesradar.com/mmo-developer-turbine-hit-layoffs/

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20673

12/07/12 5:04:37 PM#22
Originally posted by denshing

I like shooting things more than taming turtles

PS2>WoW

I agree. I am also playing PS2, and not WOW anymore.

  bingbongbros

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/21/10
Posts: 594

12/07/12 5:16:30 PM#23
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xAPOCx

Maybe you want to float from game to game and thats your right. Console games alow you to do that just fine. But a trully epic MMO will keep you in that game world for a very very long time. And that game has been missing from the MMO market.

 


 

"True epic MMO"? I dont' need a game to keep me for very very long time. Everything gets boring for very very long time. F2P is fine .. just hop from game to game.

And if that game is missing from the MMO market, there is a reason. May be there is few players who want such a game. Personally i don't miss it.

As far as the trend is concern:

http://www.newzoo.com/press-releases/free-to-play-mmo-game-spending-increases-24-to-1-2bn-dollar-in-u-s/

And i quote

"Free-to-play share of total U.S. MMO spending increases from 39% to 47%."

BTW, this is 2011 .. just last year.

no offense but honestly it's people like you that are the problem with the mmo genre.  Yes there are huge issues with companies rushing unfinished products out of the gate and them going down in flames.  But people who never even intend on sticking around passed a month or two are to blame as well.

 

MMO's are not console games, they are not meant to be consumed and then thrown away for the next new thing.  Originally mmo's were games that people would play for years on end.  I played EQ1 for 5 years straight and loved it.  Now we have games come out, even as broken as some are, that people just rush through and then ditch. 

 

If you never intend to actually be a loyal customer to this mmo then why do you even bother playing it?  MMo's are dependent on their communities along with their revenue.

Playing: Smite
Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge
Waiting On: Nothing really, though Black Desert looks pretty amazing so far.

  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

12/07/12 5:17:47 PM#24
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xAPOCx

Maybe you want to float from game to game and thats your right. Console games alow you to do that just fine. But a trully epic MMO will keep you in that game world for a very very long time. And that game has been missing from the MMO market.

 


 

"True epic MMO"? I dont' need a game to keep me for very very long time. Everything gets boring for very very long time. F2P is fine .. just hop from game to game.

And if that game is missing from the MMO market, there is a reason. May be there is few players who want such a game. Personally i don't miss it.

As far as the trend is concern:

http://www.newzoo.com/press-releases/free-to-play-mmo-game-spending-increases-24-to-1-2bn-dollar-in-u-s/

And i quote

"Free-to-play share of total U.S. MMO spending increases from 39% to 47%."

BTW, this is 2011 .. just last year.

Thats why i said console games alow you to do that just fine. That being jump from game to game to game to game to game to game to game to game to game to game to game.......

 

You right there is a reason why that game is missing from the market. That reason is called WoW. Blizzard made millions and millions and every ip that came after wanted a piece of that pie. So it has to do more with the suites calling the shots then the standered MMOer. Not a gamer but a MMOer.

 

Just look at the games that have released in the last 3 years. And you wonder why there goin f2p? Cause the qualty of games arent worth a sub.

 

Theres a saying i heard that i would like to say now in lew of your %... "Numbers never lie. But they dont tell the truth eather."

 

 

  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

12/07/12 5:20:28 PM#25
Originally posted by bingbongbros
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xAPOCx

Maybe you want to float from game to game and thats your right. Console games alow you to do that just fine. But a trully epic MMO will keep you in that game world for a very very long time. And that game has been missing from the MMO market.

 


 

"True epic MMO"? I dont' need a game to keep me for very very long time. Everything gets boring for very very long time. F2P is fine .. just hop from game to game.

And if that game is missing from the MMO market, there is a reason. May be there is few players who want such a game. Personally i don't miss it.

As far as the trend is concern:

http://www.newzoo.com/press-releases/free-to-play-mmo-game-spending-increases-24-to-1-2bn-dollar-in-u-s/

And i quote

"Free-to-play share of total U.S. MMO spending increases from 39% to 47%."

BTW, this is 2011 .. just last year.

no offense but honestly it's people like you that are the problem with the mmo genre.  Yes there are huge issues with companies rushing unfinished products out of the gate and them going down in flames.  But people who never even intend on sticking around passed a month or two are to blame as well.

 

MMO's are not console games, they are not meant to be consumed and then thrown away for the next new thing.  Originally mmo's were games that people would play for years on end.  I played EQ1 for 5 years straight and loved it.  Now we have games come out, even as broken as some are, that people just rush through and then ditch. 

 

If you never intend to actually be a loyal customer to this mmo then why do you even bother playing it?  MMo's are dependent on their communities along with their revenue.

       1000%

  tank017

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/06
Posts: 2206

12/07/12 5:27:24 PM#26
I suggest everyone say number 9 to themselves before bed every night.
  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2665

 
OP  12/07/12 5:33:57 PM#27
Originally posted by Wizardry

Well for the most part i have to agree but 1/8 are iffy.

1 That is a great IP no question however HUGE budget i am not so sure,matter of fact i doubt it.

8 great combat imo does make a great game.I am not so sure i would say TERA has great combat,i did not like any part of that game.Combat is 85% the reason why i liked/loved FFXi.

Combat does have a lot to it however,more so than simply killing.So much of a game can tie into combat,that is what does it for me.

Truth of course is that ONE aspect does nopt make a great GAME,it is however a VERY important piece of the pie.IMO it is like the pie filling,the crust is al lthe other little things.

Well as for #1, huge budget in terms of the market.  It was reportedly the biggest budget for any video game ever made.

#8 Applies to Tera but it is also a lesson that should have been learned from AoC.  Both put combat in the forefront but focused on little else.  I never tried FFXI, so I can't comment...but I think the lesson is to not forget the rest of the game just because of one feature.

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2665

 
OP  12/07/12 5:34:47 PM#28
Originally posted by Foomerang

2012 was rough. After 8 years of having swg, i found myself struggling to connect with the new style of mmos.

Let's hope 2013 is a smoother ride!

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2665

 
OP  12/07/12 5:35:36 PM#29
Originally posted by tank017
I suggest everyone say number 9 to themselves before bed every night.

Please please please!!!

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  eyelolled

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3103

I am more than some of my parts

12/07/12 5:41:27 PM#30
Originally posted by DSWBeef

 

[mod edit]

LOL. Elitism by hours dedicated!  

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  Rayshe

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1295

12/07/12 5:57:36 PM#31

You cant treat a MMO like a console games. MMO's age like Wine, they continue to get better. However people jump from MMO's like they are on a trial limit without looking back. I have done my share of jumping in F2P games, but thats not because i beat it and moving on to the next its because i didn't like it. Jumping game to game is fine if your lookin for the game that you want to spend afew years playing. Jumping game to game until you get bored will only create more WoW clones for you to jump to.

 

So in short its game jumpers who arent looking for a commitment in a game that is the problem with the community. Its not the companies fault, its yours. Stick to a game and fund their updates and you will have a game you enjoy, and it will gain steam and strength.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  OG_Zorvan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 646

12/07/12 6:00:28 PM#32
Originally posted by xAPOCx
 

       1000%

That your sig is awesome? I agree also!

EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  Shoko_Lied

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/07/07
Posts: 2113

SWG Publish 4 Jedi:Flurry: TKM unlock

12/07/12 6:00:30 PM#33
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Business model makes little difference to gamers. Poor design choices do. (GW2 and SWTOR)

I disagree. Sub forces a level of commitment, and prevent gamers from dabbling in a game. F2P obviously attract a lot more people to play test. So business model does change behaivor.

 

The business model wasnt the problem with all these converted f2p games. Poor design choices were. Swtor had no endgame and the endgame it did have was unfinished, AOC buggy no endgame, aion grindy, WAR buggy, VG buggy as all hell, list goes on and on. IF SWtor was amazing you would see sub numbers near wow. The sub isnt going anywhere poor design choices are.

But the statement that "business model makes little difference" is clearly wrong. If by moving from p2p to f2p, player population increases 10x ... the business model is having an effect.

Don't tell me increase a player base and revene is "making little difference".

[mod edit]

Plays games more than an hour a day.

Isn't a gamer.

Wat

  OG_Zorvan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 646

12/07/12 6:03:14 PM#34
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Business model makes little difference to gamers. Poor design choices do. (GW2 and SWTOR)

I disagree. Sub forces a level of commitment, and prevent gamers from dabbling in a game. F2P obviously attract a lot more people to play test. So business model does change behaivor.

 

The business model wasnt the problem with all these converted f2p games. Poor design choices were. Swtor had no endgame and the endgame it did have was unfinished, AOC buggy no endgame, aion grindy, WAR buggy, VG buggy as all hell, list goes on and on. IF SWtor was amazing you would see sub numbers near wow. The sub isnt going anywhere poor design choices are.

But the statement that "business model makes little difference" is clearly wrong. If by moving from p2p to f2p, player population increases 10x ... the business model is having an effect.

Don't tell me increase a player base and revene is "making little difference".

[mod edit]

Let's see...according to Raptr, I have spent 87 hours in Fallen Earth F2P in less than 2 weeks. I'd hardly call that "casual".

EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  Kiljaedenas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 468

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

12/07/12 6:06:10 PM#35
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Business model makes little difference to gamers. Poor design choices do. (GW2 and SWTOR)

I disagree. Sub forces a level of commitment, and prevent gamers from dabbling in a game. F2P obviously attract a lot more people to play test. So business model does change behaivor.

 

The business model wasnt the problem with all these converted f2p games. Poor design choices were. Swtor had no endgame and the endgame it did have was unfinished, AOC buggy no endgame, aion grindy, WAR buggy, VG buggy as all hell, list goes on and on. IF SWtor was amazing you would see sub numbers near wow. The sub isnt going anywhere poor design choices are.

But the statement that "business model makes little difference" is clearly wrong. If by moving from p2p to f2p, player population increases 10x ... the business model is having an effect.

Don't tell me increase a player base and revene is "making little difference".

If in that movement of p2p to f2p the player population increases 10x but a good chunk of the original players go "Hey, I can pay for free now, no need to dump in more cash!" and the new players don't bother to pay either...you end up LOSING money.

Where's the any key?

  Vunak23

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 660

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

12/07/12 6:08:44 PM#36
Games that are not worth (keyword) the sub fee will fail.

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20673

12/08/12 2:21:40 AM#37
Originally posted by Kiljaedenas
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Business model makes little difference to gamers. Poor design choices do. (GW2 and SWTOR)

I disagree. Sub forces a level of commitment, and prevent gamers from dabbling in a game. F2P obviously attract a lot more people to play test. So business model does change behaivor.

 

The business model wasnt the problem with all these converted f2p games. Poor design choices were. Swtor had no endgame and the endgame it did have was unfinished, AOC buggy no endgame, aion grindy, WAR buggy, VG buggy as all hell, list goes on and on. IF SWtor was amazing you would see sub numbers near wow. The sub isnt going anywhere poor design choices are.

But the statement that "business model makes little difference" is clearly wrong. If by moving from p2p to f2p, player population increases 10x ... the business model is having an effect.

Don't tell me increase a player base and revene is "making little difference".

If in that movement of p2p to f2p the player population increases 10x but a good chunk of the original players go "Hey, I can pay for free now, no need to dump in more cash!" and the new players don't bother to pay either...you end up LOSING money.

if .. if .. if ... evidence suggests that converting from p2p to f2p not only increase player pop, it also increase revenue. DIdn't you read the link i post?

It is not a matter of opinon. There were data, you know.

  Draron

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/11
Posts: 1009

12/08/12 2:23:50 AM#38
Don't use flash for your game and make sure to futureproof it, even if it offers a unique sandbox world by some of the best devs ever (Glitch).
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20673

12/08/12 2:26:23 AM#39
Originally posted by bingbongbros
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xAPOCx

Maybe you want to float from game to game and thats your right. Console games alow you to do that just fine. But a trully epic MMO will keep you in that game world for a very very long time. And that game has been missing from the MMO market.

 


 

"True epic MMO"? I dont' need a game to keep me for very very long time. Everything gets boring for very very long time. F2P is fine .. just hop from game to game.

And if that game is missing from the MMO market, there is a reason. May be there is few players who want such a game. Personally i don't miss it.

As far as the trend is concern:

http://www.newzoo.com/press-releases/free-to-play-mmo-game-spending-increases-24-to-1-2bn-dollar-in-u-s/

And i quote

"Free-to-play share of total U.S. MMO spending increases from 39% to 47%."

BTW, this is 2011 .. just last year.

no offense but honestly it's people like you that are the problem with the mmo genre.  Yes there are huge issues with companies rushing unfinished products out of the gate and them going down in flames.  But people who never even intend on sticking around passed a month or two are to blame as well.

 

MMO's are not console games, they are not meant to be consumed and then thrown away for the next new thing.  Originally mmo's were games that people would play for years on end.  I played EQ1 for 5 years straight and loved it.  Now we have games come out, even as broken as some are, that people just rush through and then ditch. 

 

If you never intend to actually be a loyal customer to this mmo then why do you even bother playing it?  MMo's are dependent on their communities along with their revenue.

"problem" too blame" .. lol .. that is from your perspective. Player preferenes just are ... there is no right or wrong. I don't apologize for what i like. Blaming others for how they use entertainment products .. that is a silly notion. Do you get angry when people see Avenger 3 times instead of going to see independent movies too?

MMOs are not "meant" for anything. They are entertainment products, just like console games, sci-fi movies, and tv shows. I played EQ for 1 year and only stood it so long because there were few alternatives. Won't do that again.

"If you never intend to actually be a loyal customer to this mmo then why do you even bother playing it?" .. that is a silly question. The answer, of course, is to be entertained for however long the game can keep it fun for me.

"MMo's are dependent on their communities along with their revenue." .. so? I am not in it to "support" anything. I am playing for entertainment. The moment it stops being fun, i stop playing.

 

  OG_Zorvan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 646

12/08/12 2:58:57 AM#40
Originally posted by bingbongbros

 

If you never intend to actually be a loyal customer to this mmo then why do you even bother playing it?  MMo's are dependent on their communities along with their revenue.

Let me explain something to you, and others that seem to share your "unique" train of thought.

Most of us are not here to "support" any developer, publisher, or combination thereof, be they "AAA" or "Indie".

We do not go to a movie  to "support" the theater, the director, the producer, or anyone else even remotely connected to the movie. We go to the movie for entertainment. Plain and simple.

Another thing the movie and MMO's have in common?

Neither one is an "investment". They are "products" and "services" that incur "expenses".

And when the product and/or service no longer justifies the expense, we move on.

I, and many others, have played a few MMO's over the years FOR years. I, and many others, have also played many MMO's over the years that I/we never even made it through the first month.

The only difference in these MMO's were some continually justified their expense, and others didn't.

And as for the "investment" part ( which was not in your quote but seems to be one of the favorite catchphrases people use now to tell us why we're supposed to "support the indie dev " regardless of outcome ), until I see a quarterly dividend check from any of these publishers, devs, or combinations thereof, be they "AAA" or "Indie", there is no "investment" other than my time.

And I owe my time to noone.

 

 

EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

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