Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fenistil

 

True, but I don't want single player game as a service. Why? It drives cost up for full experience, it is bothersome, it frequently break immersion (like NPC in rpg game telling you to buy DLC to get what he's offering - example DA:O). 

1. So? That does not mean that it is unethical. I want zero tax, and my bank don't charge me interests on my mortage too. I can't have everything. It is a free market. If you don't like it, don't play it.

It is enough hassle, cost and problem to deal with that in mmorpg's.   Single player games and increasing amount of games overall like rising amount of multiplauyer / co-op games having that turn me off and actually make me spend LESS and look for entertaiment that is not so hmm serviced.

2. Once again, you can find something else to do. Personally it boils down to how fun a game is.

I only accept in example continious subsciption in mmorpg's and it de-facto being a service because there is no other realistic way to finance it.   Thing is I don't want to play only mmorpg's. Don't really have time or willingness to play more than one. 

3.That is obviously false since F2P, and B2P are too existing and successful ways to finance MMOs.

So all games going that route will mean that my gaming interest will continue to dwindle.  I don't want to deal with that much amount of services in my life and I don't want to permanently increase budget understood as % of my income I do spend on gaming. 

4.Me me me ... sure .. that means that YOUR gaming interests will continue to dwindle. All of us want free, and hassle free stuff too. Be realistic.

People don't let you have everything don't mean they are unethical. Personally, there are enough cheap entertainment around. If you cannot deal with some DLCs, may be you need a different hobby.

 

1. Quote me where I said it is unethical. You seem to have confused me with someone else.

2. I said it myself as well.

3. I meant continuous payment for game vs. one time payment for whole package as in classic box game. Sub was just an example. Can be cash shop or long-string of DLC's or something similar.

4. Like I said I did not say in my post it is unethical. Please read carefully next time.  Aside of that - yes I mean me, just as you mean you or you are choosen to be an representative of some larger amount of people?

Originally posted by versulas

meh...  got to hand it to the f2p system in planetside 2. You're just as capable as everyone else without spending a single dime and you don't even notice you have to pay for anything until you try to get a new gun (or armor/cammo/anything). Then it's farm certs for a week, or pay $7-$10... Doesn't help that you can't really try the guns out so if you don't like the gun, well just pony up more cash. Not to mention all the other crap that's available. 

It's smart, because it doesn't force you to buy shit, it just makes it really hard for folks who have no restraint (which is prob like 80% of the market these days...) to choose the time sink. So yeah, them bastards know their stuff and while I hate the system, I know it could be a lot worse and it'll likely be pretty successful.

Actually you *can*. There is a trial function. I tried my current bolt sniper rifle before putting in the cert to buy it.

The game isn't bad. So far i have fun, and pay nothing. In fact, i don't think i ever need to pay anything in this game to have fun.

Originally posted by fenistil

 

1. Quote me where I said it is unethical. You seem to have confused me with someone else.

2. I said it myself as well.

3. I meant continuous payment for game vs. one time payment for whole package as in classic box game. Sub was just an example. Can be cash shop or long-string of DLC's or something similar.

4. Like I said I did not say in my post it is unethical. Please read carefully next time.  Aside of that - yes I mean me, just as you mean you or you are choosen to be an representative of some larger amount of people?

In that case, all good. Then you should have no disagreement with what i said, particularly the part about free market, and that you can't have everything you want.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fenistil

 

1. Quote me where I said it is unethical. You seem to have confused me with someone else.

2. I said it myself as well.

3. I meant continuous payment for game vs. one time payment for whole package as in classic box game. Sub was just an example. Can be cash shop or long-string of DLC's or something similar.

4. Like I said I did not say in my post it is unethical. Please read carefully next time.  Aside of that - yes I mean me, just as you mean you or you are choosen to be an representative of some larger amount of people?

In that case, all good. Then you should have no disagreement with what i said, particularly the part about free market, and that you can't have everything you want.

Of course you can read my post to know that I have no disagreement with free market. I also never said that I demand everything I want.    I am simply stating that I don't like turning all games into services because it is non-beneficial for me. 

Don't jump the gun so fast next time.

Originally posted by fenistil

 

Of course you can read my post to know that I have no disagreement with free market. I also never said that I demand everything I want.    I am simply stating that I don't like turning all games into services because it is non-beneficial for me. 

 

That is fair. It certainly is your perogative to dislike a particular form of business arrangement, as a personal preference.

From my perspective having played about every monthly mmorpg i can tell you they are also fremium except the money the player spend to advance their cause goes to chinese gold shop and the like...

there is no monthly payment game currently that has no usd for gold website . The problem isn't with the company budget plan but with the community. If you want fair game you're better off going back to social skill such as poker , pool or chess.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fenistil

 

Of course you can read my post to know that I have no disagreement with free market. I also never said that I demand everything I want.    I am simply stating that I don't like turning all games into services because it is non-beneficial for me. 

 

That is fair. It certainly is your perogative to dislike a particular form of business arrangement, as a personal preference.

I know. That's why I was surprised that you brought big guns at me.

Part of my astonishment at some posters has nothing to with freemium, themeparks and such debates. It is that they seem to start from the position that the gaming industry is perfect, cannot be critiqued and has never been better. This year was better than last year and no doubt to them, next year will be better than this year. This is why I think of them as wearing a rather rosy pair of spectacles when it comes to gaming.

The DLC at day one issue shows that the gaming company withheld content from the game you brought at launch. They kept back what you had paid for. This is not development of extra content it is dividing up the content of a game you have made and keeping back some slices, expecting players to fork out more from day one.

Once again though I am sure some posters will not get this, as it shows the gaming industry in a bad light and for them the industry can do no wrong.

Originally posted by Scot

Part of my astonishment at some posters has nothing to with freemium, themeparks and such debates. It is that they seem to start from the position that the gaming industry is perfect, cannot be critiqued and has never been better. This year was better than last year and no doubt to them, next year will be better than this year. This is why I think of them as wearing a rather rosy pair of spectacles when it comes to gaming.

The DLC at day one issue shows that the gaming company withheld content from the game you brought at launch. They kept back what you had paid for. This is not development of extra content it is dividing up the content of a game you have made and keeping back some slices, expecting players to fork out more from day one.

Once again though I am sure some posters will not get this, as it shows the gaming industry in a bad light and for them the industry can do no wrong.

Don't know if you are talking about me.

However, there is a difference from "being perfect", and that it is a "normal" state of things.

Sure i would like cheaper games, more games to my liking, and so on .. but the point is that the free market  is working as it should be. The game industry has freedom to sell stuff as they see fit, and you have the freedom to use (or not use) their products as you see fit.

There is no such thing as "perfect". It is a matter of preference. The industry want all your money. They can't have that. You want free games. You can't have that. Whatever you get .. in between the two extreme ... is how the free market operates.

The concept of "right" and "wrong" simply don't apply here, as long as they are not breaking laws and commiting fraud. It is only whether a particularly person like it enough to do business.

Originally posted by Scot

Part of my astonishment at some posters has nothing to with freemium, themeparks and such debates. It is that they seem to start from the position that the gaming industry is perfect, cannot be critiqued and has never been better.

Can you link to the posts that you derived that from. I would normally ask you to link to the posts that say that, but I think we both know no such posts exist.

Just taking these from a few of the threads we have atm: If you think there is nothing wrong with themeparks, wanting to be a content locust, Freemium, DLC on day one and instanced PvP trash; then I think it is alright to say some posters on here think the industry is perfect. I don’t really think I need to cite posts when we see the same posters coming back again and again with never a word against any of this.

I am not saying you should think all of that is wrong, I am saying it is a blinkered view when you think it is all fine. I put this forward as a counter to those who say all we do is complain. All some do is find everything wonderful or a non-issue.

I really do not think this is a question about a free market. At every stage of gaming history we have had a free market. Gaming has been influenced by innovative founders, good and bad business practices and corporate philosophy but the free market has not shaped games in a like manner. It has simply supported those games and fads which make the most money.

I appreciate a small MMO can be difficult funding wise. But you can still play it two ways. You can set prices like they did in Allods, leaving players thinking they had put the decimal point in the wrong place. Or try for something on a fairer basis. Good luck to anyone trying to get a MMO of the ground with today’s locust gamers.

There is a very big difference between people thinking that there is nothing inherently wrong with themeparks, dlc on day one and freemium content and people thinking the industry is perfect.  To make that stretch requires a pretty incredible logic leap.   I don't believe anyone has stated or even implied that the industry is perfect, however many have stated they like where it is now and where it is going.

Whether someone is content locus, and intance pvp is trash is entirely subjective so not worth a comment on that.

Originally posted by Scot

Just taking these from a few of the threads we have atm: If you think there is nothing wrong with themeparks, wanting to be a content locust, Freemium, DLC on day one and instanced PvP trash; then I think it is alright to say some posters on here think the industry is perfect. I don’t really think I need to cite posts when we see the same posters coming back again and again with never a word against any of this.

I am not saying you should think all of that is wrong, I am saying it is a blinkered view when you think it is all fine. I put this forward as a counter to those who say all we do is complain. All some do is find everything wonderful or a non-issue.

And the question again, is where are these posts where people are saying all of those things together are fine?

"Part of my astonishment at some posters has nothing to with freemium, themeparks and such debates. It is that they seem to start from the position that the gaming industry is perfect, cannot be critiqued and has never been better." - Scot

Just interested in how you got the impression anyone felt that way.

Well look at VengeSunsoar and nariusseldon’s posts. To them non of the issues held any weight, I am just picking those two out as they did reply to my post.

Simply saying you want to see more of the same but cheaper means that apart from pricing the gaming industry is at an all time zenith. Clearly that is pretty near damn perfect.

If you think nothing is wrong with the gaming industry on any of those issues, then you think the industry is perfect. Here is my definition of perfect - nothing needs to change. So if you think all those issues had no weight you think the industry does not wish to change one iota. Now I could be wrong, please tell us about what you see as a bugbear in the industry currently.

Originally posted by Scot

Well look at VengeSunsoar and nariusseldon’s posts. To them non of the issues held any weight, I am just picking those two out as they did reply to my post.

Simply saying you want to see more of the same but cheaper means that apart from pricing the gaming industry is at an all time zenith. Clearly that is pretty near damn perfect.

If you think nothing is wrong with the gaming industry on any of those issues, then you think the industry is perfect. Here is my definition of perfect - nothing needs to change. So if you think all those issues had no weight you think the industry does not wish to change one iota. Now I could be wrong, please tell us about what you see as a bugbear in the industry currently.

It seems like you are under the assumption that if they aren't actively complaining on message boards about things they don't like and they have little or no problems with the things you don't like, then they see the industry as being perfect.

Originally posted by Scot

Well look at VengeSunsoar and nariusseldon’s posts. To them non of the issues held any weight, I am just picking those two out as they did reply to my post.

Simply saying you want to see more of the same but cheaper means that apart from pricing the gaming industry is at an all time zenith. Clearly that is pretty near damn perfect.

If you think nothing is wrong with the gaming industry on any of those issues, then you think the industry is perfect. Here is my definition of perfect - nothing needs to change. So if you think all those issues had no weight you think the industry does not wish to change one iota. Now I could be wrong, please tell us about what you see as a bugbear in the industry currently.

 Um no.  Once again those are very different issues and requires a fantastic leap in logic to bridge.  I like current games and would like to see more of them.  I don't mind dlc on day one, especially if I know what I'm getting into before I do it, I don't mind freemium...

That does not mean I think the genre is perfect.  There are many things I would like to see - even more variety in payment options, more skill based, more puzzles, I like longevity but dislike grind (that will take some creative thinking), I like housing brick and board style...

The industry is far from perfect however I still like current games and don't have an issue with the companies providing more of them.

edit - and personally I don't care about cheaper.  Actually I could care less about the payment model.  To me that is the least important aspect of my game and has nothing to do with my immersion or enjoyment. 

Originally posted by Scot

Well look at VengeSunsoar and nariusseldon’s posts. To them non of the issues held any weight, I am just picking those two out as they did reply to my post.

Simply saying you want to see more of the same but cheaper means that apart from pricing the gaming industry is at an all time zenith. Clearly that is pretty near damn perfect.

If you think nothing is wrong with the gaming industry on any of those issues, then you think the industry is perfect. Here is my definition of perfect - nothing needs to change. So if you think all those issues had no weight you think the industry does not wish to change one iota. Now I could be wrong, please tell us about what you see as a bugbear in the industry currently.

What is a "bugbear" in the industry? Rigid pricing structure like a fix box price, and then sub fees. Sub fees are very inflexible and force player commitment. F2P is a much better model, and thankfully it is taken hold.

Another "bugbear"? Artificial high price (like $60 games) because of inefficient distribution. Do you know that retailers like Gamestop can take 1/3 of the price? Direct distribution like Steam should help ... but price is still equal (like a new AAA game is still $60 on steam) for now. Hopefully that will change.

Indie games, OTOH, are priced accoding to value & demand.

Who says the industry should not change? Just not the stuff you want change.

I don’t see this as being something where if you do not agree with me on every issue the industry must be perfect. I am not that bothered about PvP trash for example, I prefer faction based open world PvP, but like instanced PvP for a quick bash. I just grabbed a few current themes, I was not putting forward a manifesto.

Fair enough if you want MMO’s that are skill based, more puzzles and housing. We don’t get those in many MMO’s, that shows you want things to change. You shy away from questioning  the current state of the genre though. For me there is just too much that is off kilter for me not to question the state of gameplay. Not sure what board style is, board gaming?

Some games are overpriced, I don’t get concerned too much about that, retailers need to make a profit after all. F2P has turned MMO’s downmarket, I see no benefits to that. I have played the odd F2P game, PS2 currently, I always end up thinking it would have been better as a sub game. I am a fan of the indie game concept but it is harder to produce a quality game with fewer resources and the content locusts which are the baulk of the player base are utterly unforgiving. But this is all about finance, nothing about gameplay, if you don’t think gameplay needs to change at all then you think the gaming industry is nigh on perfect. After all the industry is about making games.

Originally posted by Scot

I don’t see this as being something where if you do not agree with me on every issue the industry must be perfect. I am not that bothered about PvP trash for example, I prefer faction based open world PvP, but like instanced PvP for a quick bash. I just grabbed a few current themes, I was not putting forward a manifesto.

Fair enough if you want MMO’s that are skill based, more puzzles and housing. We don’t get those in many MMO’s, that shows you want things to change. You shy away from questioning  the current state of the genre though. For me there is just too much that is off kilter for me not to question the state of gameplay. Not sure what board style is, board gaming?

Some games are overpriced, I don’t get concerned too much about that, retailers need to make a profit after all. F2P has turned MMO’s downmarket, I see no benefits to that. I have played the odd F2P game, PS2 currently, I always end up thinking it would have been better as a sub game. I am a fan of the indie game concept but it is harder to produce a quality game with fewer resources and the content locusts which are the baulk of the player base are utterly unforgiving. But this is all about finance, nothing about gameplay, if you don’t think gameplay needs to change at all then you think the gaming industry is nigh on perfect. After all the industry is about making games.

So we differ in HOW the industry is imperfect. But you can't claim that i think it is perfect. I just posted a list of things i like to see changed.

And we differ in opinions of WHAT need to be changed. Business-wise, i like to see MORE F2P .. because it allows less commitment, more game hopping. I am sure you disagree.

On the gameplay side, i like to see more innvoation in blending MMO with other genre, you want pure old school MMOs. Don't get me wrong, i hate easy-questing gameplay too ... but i think the fix is more actiony diablo 3 type combat, with difficulty levers .. instead of going back to group based kill-any-mob to level gameplay.