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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What Commonly Accepted MMO Concepts Bug You?

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181 posts found
  Falconium

Novice Member

Joined: 5/31/12
Posts: 20

12/05/12 11:59:05 PM#41

A wolf in one zone has 100,000 HP, but in the first zone the same sized wolf had 22.

I'm the hero, and everyone else in my raid group, and all the other [Max level] characters, and that gold farmer spamming trade chat has the same quests to save the world once and for all.

I may be the savior of the world, but that NPC thinks I have enough time to collect apples for her.

What about collecting apples and talking to her gave me XP? How does that make me stronger? Why can't she just give me more XP to be nice? Why can't I, the savior of the world, have the mystical power the level 2 NPC has to grant XP?

When an expansion comes, it replaces all existing content for current and future players.

I can afford a diamond sword enchanted to +8 dexterity, but I am homeless (Only applies to some games).

That NPC will wait for years for me to get around returning her apples, and still reward me the same.

I'm pretty sure that rat was naked. If I found these pants from that, I'm not too sure I want to wear them after considering the places it could have been stored.

Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go fetch me some apples. Go talk to the guy right next to me. Go back and talk to the NPC you just talked to. Kill some more stuff. Oh, get some items from the stuff I just asked you to kill. Go to the next town. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go fetch me some apples. Go talk to the guy right next to me. Go back and talk to the NPC you just talked to. Kill some more stuff. Oh, get some items from the stuff I just asked you to kill. Go to the next town. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go fetch me some apples. Go talk to the guy right next to me. Go back and talk to the NPC you just talked to. Kill some more stuff. Oh, get some items from the stuff I just asked you to kill. Go to the next town. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go fetch me some apples. Go talk to the guy right next to me. Go back and talk to the NPC you just talked to. Kill some more stuff. Oh, get some items from the stuff I just asked you to kill. Go to the next town. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go kill that. Go fetch me some apples. Go talk to the guy right next to me. Go back and talk to the NPC you just talked to. Kill some more stuff. Oh, get some items from the stuff I just asked you to kill. Go to the next town. Raid.

I'm wearing armor; I'm not god. Why am I taking a smack from a dragon twenty times my size and not dying on the spot?

Why do the NPCs tell me to press M to open up my minimap? They're in the game, why do they know what 'M' is?

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2242

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

12/06/12 12:09:06 AM#42

That I am an unmitigated hero according to every npc from the time I enter the game.

I'd rather actually prove that I'm a hero through a lifetime of increasingly difficult quests/activities and only after overcoming many failures.

  Trudge34

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 389

12/06/12 12:26:23 AM#43

That there are games being released with a watered down experience that is given better by a single player RPG or ARPG that are being called MMORPGs. That it's ok that they've devolved into something the original vision wasn't meant to be, but that's ok because we have epics now!

I would like the return of the experience that only MMO's can provide. Not a single player RPG or ARPG...but with a chat box!

Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2

Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger

  PhoenixC13

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 121

12/06/12 12:35:48 AM#44
I was a long term EQ player and have played a lot of other MMO's.  I hate questing like in Rift and WoW so on.  In EQ you have to look or talk to people.  I love that in EQ so many people help you.  I hate that questing is so laid out.  I also hate that a monster 100x my size can stomp me 100 times but if I get healed I live.

  User Deleted
12/06/12 3:05:50 AM#45

The new "free-to-play" + subscriptions = hybrids

mmos keep coming with new ideas to test your patience, pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable, when you are, already trying hard enough to like them. I call this one: negative reinforcement. They not only give you less options, they apply you a whole lot of annoying limitations and not so trivial needs and constantly remind you of all of them, almost every feature that the game has to offer is modified so you can feel the difference. 

small letters:

if you can't put up with it, quit or pay.

  emperorwings

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/25/06
Posts: 1397

12/06/12 3:25:21 AM#46
Small world, quest markers, fast leveling, lifeless npc's, dumb mobs, quests not being real quests eg: kill 10 rats when it should be like a mini adventure etc. Pretty much anything that is in todays mmorpgs. Oh and f2p when you really have to pay to play the game how it was meant to be played like what SOE has done to their games as an example.

This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  Loke666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16810

12/06/12 3:45:00 AM#47
Originally posted by allendale5

...

5) Class specific weapons and gear.  As if a human mage could not pick up a sword if she had to.  

That one at least makes some sense... In P&P games you can use a sword but the chanse you hit in combat is really low. The idea behind that is that becoming good in melee combat with weapons like that takes a lot of work, which the mage instead are using for studying books and making magical experiements.

If a MMO used chanses to hit like P&P games you can easily have a similar system, but for some reason all attacks in MMOs always hit (some of them just dont do any actual damage). I am actually surprised no MMO ever tried something like this.

My list:

Daily quests. The most boring MMO idea ever, minimum work for the devs for the time people spend doing them.

"Smart" stupid bosses. One would assume that a drgon or similar ultra smart boss would fight smarter than a animal, like dont falling for taunts, change tactics when the players clearly dominate him and so on. And FFS use the powerful magical item he drops.

Taunts. They makes combat far too predictable and stupid.

Too many identical skills. In games like EQ2 you have tons of attack skills but most of them are more or less the same, and I am not talking about the skills you upgrade. My swashie rotated 30 or so skills but they were in fact less than 10 different skills, the rest were the same with a slight difference in damage and animation. It adds nothing to the game besides some more fastkeybars.

Worthless crafting. In a certain game I was forced making about 100 tin greatswords to level my crafting a little to the next reciepe. I couldnt give away that crap for free and I swear that the npc vendor smirked at me while I trashed them. It is not so hard to make what you need for crafting a bit harder to get and at least only force me to make 1 of each the useless unsellable crap if you must have them in at all. Crafting in MMOs could be so fun but usually suck so much.

  Loke666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16810

12/06/12 3:47:10 AM#48
Originally posted by Psy410

The new "free-to-play" + subscriptions = hybrids

mmos keep coming with new ideas to test your patience, pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable, when you are, already trying hard enough to like them. I call this one: negative reinforcement. They not only give you less options, they apply you a whole lot of annoying limitations and not so trivial needs and constantly remind you of all of them, almost every feature that the game has to offer is modified so you can feel the difference. 

small letters:

if you can't put up with it, quit or pay.

Dont forget that you get less when a game go F2P and you continue to sub for it, suddenly you still need to pay to get access to some stuff.

I dont mind F2P like PW or something, but the standard western model do indeed suck.

  muffins89

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 1255

12/06/12 3:48:53 AM#49
pocket mounts.

I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  Navek

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/06/06
Posts: 72

12/06/12 4:04:10 AM#50

Not a feature of the games , but definately of the genre. "The Migration", hyping the next big thing, that new game that will give you a buzz like your first hit of MMo games, then the jaded disappointment , trolling forums and moving on to the next wow killing hype fest.

 Just enjoy whats there for what it is, it wont be all things to all people.

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/06/12 4:08:59 AM#51

Listing of my concepts I can not stand, in no particular order:

  • Raiding or Instanced PvP as the only endgame
  • Linearity in general but linear questing, linear progression & linear worlds are the main ones
  • Hand holding from character creation to level cap
  • Quest hub design
  • picking up umpteen million quests and running off and doing them in one fell swoop
  • fed-ex style questing
  • Use of zones to segragate players
  • Pokeman-pet-battles and other silly, juvenile and childish concepts suited to appeal to the 12 year old
  • The Holy Trinity of Tank/Heal/DPS...at least there should be a mandatory Crowd Control Class, Buffer and Debuffer.  All 6 roles should be absolutely required if your playing a trinity based game
  • lack of compelling weapons for classes....Swords, Axes, Bows, Daggers and Staves are ok but we need Pole Arms, Scythes, Flails, Throwing Weapons, Atlatls, Melee Quarter Staffs, Orbs, Sceptres, Wands, Chakrams (from Reckoning), Krull style throwing blade, and everything else your imagination can think of
  • Classes....I want freedom to build my own class suited to my likes
  • Classical Bow users without the need of being a pet class
  • refusal to add out door game space (open and non-instanced) player housing, Guild halls and the like.
  • Crafting being a skill an adventurer can pick up.  Crafting should be its ONLY game play style.  Your either an adventurer or a crafter
  • Cheesy storylines where I am a hero, an MMO is about persistance and if there are thousands of other heroes then the term gets diluted to having no meaning.  Players should be adventurers, crafters, politicians, traders and other roles, heroes should be relegated to the annals of a game's lore.
  • Vertical Progression
  • Class skills and abilities that are ONLY purchased from a trainer, let skills, abilties and spells be a part of a games economy.
  • Tiered gear that makes previous gear obsolete
  • Instanced Dungeons....Dungeons should be open and hostile
  • item specific gear...I want to see a return to Asherons Call Style random gear which can be found anywhere and on any mob.
 
Those are just a smidgeon I could think of within the few minutes it took me to make this post but by all means it is not an exhaustive list.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1170

12/06/12 4:10:49 AM#52
For me ti would be the one where everyone feels they have to rush to cap asap, for endgame that serves no point since the gear you earn can't really be used for anything else worthwhile. WoW is very bad for this, the raid gear serves no real purpose after you get it since you can't go and pvp with it, nor do anything else worth doing in it. Might be fun to get it, but at the same time, I personally couldn't be bothered so I hit cap before cata came out and just quit, since I didn't see any point to the endgame wow offers. This is a personal thing though. I am thinking of subbing to everquest 2 because its like the only mmo on the market atm (that I know of) that has stuff you can do even after you get all your raid gear. Can help lower leveled chars ind ungeons you missed to gain more alternante advancement exp to make yoru char more powerful, can pvp with it. there is a ton of stuff you can do, which is something almost all mmo's after wow sadly lack.

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/06/12 4:11:35 AM#53
Originally posted by dreamsofwar
Auction houses. I'd much rather see Western MMO's adopt a concept that many Asian MMO's have used, player stalls. It adds to the social aspect of the game, allows for bartering, and it just adds more life and atmosphere to cities, and other parts of the world. Imagine seeing a few player stalls outside of raid entrances, its little things like that I think would make games more immersive.

Dear god NO.

 

Nothing is as grotesque an eyesore then having thousands of off-line people standing around anywhere they please setting up a shop.

 

Now I could buy this argument if it was at a players house but no, we do not need anything more to get people to clog up cities.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1170

12/06/12 4:16:43 AM#54
Originally posted by azzamasin

Listing of my concepts I can not stand, in no particular order:

  • Raiding or Instanced PvP as the only endgame
  • Linearity in general but linear questing, linear progression & linear worlds are the main ones
  • Hand holding from character creation to level cap
  • Quest hub design
  • picking up umpteen million quests and running off and doing them in one fell swoop
  • fed-ex style questing
  • Use of zones to segragate players
  • Pokeman-pet-battles and other silly, juvenile and childish concepts suited to appeal to the 12 year old
  • The Holy Trinity of Tank/Heal/DPS...at least there should be a mandatory Crowd Control Class, Buffer and Debuffer.  All 6 roles should be absolutely required if your playing a trinity based game
  • lack of compelling weapons for classes....Swords, Axes, Bows, Daggers and Staves are ok but we need Pole Arms, Scythes, Flails, Throwing Weapons, Atlatls, Melee Quarter Staffs, Orbs, Sceptres, Wands, Chakrams (from Reckoning), Krull style throwing blade, and everything else your imagination can think of
  • Classes....I want freedom to build my own class suited to my likes
  • Classical Bow users without the need of being a pet class
  • refusal to add out door game space (open and non-instanced) player housing, Guild halls and the like.
  • Crafting being a skill an adventurer can pick up.  Crafting should be its ONLY game play style.  Your either an adventurer or a crafter
  • Cheesy storylines where I am a hero, an MMO is about persistance and if there are thousands of other heroes then the term gets diluted to having no meaning.  Players should be adventurers, crafters, politicians, traders and other roles, heroes should be relegated to the annals of a game's lore.
  • Vertical Progression
  • Class skills and abilities that are ONLY purchased from a trainer, let skills, abilties and spells be a part of a games economy.
  • Tiered gear that makes previous gear obsolete
  • Instanced Dungeons....Dungeons should be open and hostile
  • item specific gear...I want to see a return to Asherons Call Style random gear which can be found anywhere and on any mob.
 
Those are just a smidgeon I could think of within the few minutes it took me to make this post but by all means it is not an exhaustive list.

Don't play world of warcraft or most of the other copies of it that have come out sincer 2005, since they all pretty much have all of those things you dislike in them, however I can reccomend everquest 2, since it seems to have the least amount of them. The game did get wowified a bit so it could try to compete with wow, mostly this was in the vein of adding quest hubs.

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1170

12/06/12 4:21:12 AM#55
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by dreamsofwar
Auction houses. I'd much rather see Western MMO's adopt a concept that many Asian MMO's have used, player stalls. It adds to the social aspect of the game, allows for bartering, and it just adds more life and atmosphere to cities, and other parts of the world. Imagine seeing a few player stalls outside of raid entrances, its little things like that I think would make games more immersive.

Dear god NO.

 

Nothing is as grotesque an eyesore then having thousands of off-line people standing around anywhere they please setting up a shop.

 

Now I could buy this argument if it was at a players house but no, we do not need anything more to get people to clog up cities.

I have to agree with Azzamasin on this one, the whole stall idea alot of asian mmo's use is just terrible, it makes it a pain in the ass to find what your looking for since none of these games have anyway to search them (only exception is ragnarok online that has a player run bot that lists the items, sellers location etc and uploads them to a searchable database). The whole stall was and still is a horrible idea. AH is also better because it helps regulate prices, in a game with stalls people price things all over the place since there is no ingame way to check what a item is worth in general without bugging people. IMO they use the stall system just because the game devs want to be lazy and not have to code a AH. Almost every town in any mmo has tons of buildings that are bascally unused in anyway cept to make the town look more full. Its not that easy to code a properlly functioning AH, but coding a stall is piss easy so they just kinda cop out.

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/06/12 4:21:14 AM#56
Originally posted by Siveria
Originally posted by azzamasin

Listing of my concepts I can not stand, in no particular order:

  • Raiding or Instanced PvP as the only endgame
  • Linearity in general but linear questing, linear progression & linear worlds are the main ones
  • Hand holding from character creation to level cap
  • Quest hub design
  • picking up umpteen million quests and running off and doing them in one fell swoop
  • fed-ex style questing
  • Use of zones to segragate players
  • Pokeman-pet-battles and other silly, juvenile and childish concepts suited to appeal to the 12 year old
  • The Holy Trinity of Tank/Heal/DPS...at least there should be a mandatory Crowd Control Class, Buffer and Debuffer.  All 6 roles should be absolutely required if your playing a trinity based game
  • lack of compelling weapons for classes....Swords, Axes, Bows, Daggers and Staves are ok but we need Pole Arms, Scythes, Flails, Throwing Weapons, Atlatls, Melee Quarter Staffs, Orbs, Sceptres, Wands, Chakrams (from Reckoning), Krull style throwing blade, and everything else your imagination can think of
  • Classes....I want freedom to build my own class suited to my likes
  • Classical Bow users without the need of being a pet class
  • refusal to add out door game space (open and non-instanced) player housing, Guild halls and the like.
  • Crafting being a skill an adventurer can pick up.  Crafting should be its ONLY game play style.  Your either an adventurer or a crafter
  • Cheesy storylines where I am a hero, an MMO is about persistance and if there are thousands of other heroes then the term gets diluted to having no meaning.  Players should be adventurers, crafters, politicians, traders and other roles, heroes should be relegated to the annals of a game's lore.
  • Vertical Progression
  • Class skills and abilities that are ONLY purchased from a trainer, let skills, abilties and spells be a part of a games economy.
  • Tiered gear that makes previous gear obsolete
  • Instanced Dungeons....Dungeons should be open and hostile
  • item specific gear...I want to see a return to Asherons Call Style random gear which can be found anywhere and on any mob.
 
Those are just a smidgeon I could think of within the few minutes it took me to make this post but by all means it is not an exhaustive list.

Don't play world of warcraft or most of the other copies of it that have come out sincer 2005, since they all pretty much have all of those things you dislike in them, however I can reccomend everquest 2, since it seems to have the least amount of them. The game did get wowified a bit so it could try to compete with wow, mostly this was in the vein of adding quest hubs.

Ohh I quit WoW right after Cata and trust me, I can not stand WoW clones like Rit or SWTOR.  I dont mind themeparks per se, especially oens like GW2, ESO and Neverwinter because they break the WoW clone mold.

 

EDIT: your sig is spot on and I agree 100%

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

12/06/12 5:01:56 AM#57
Originally posted by Icewhite

PVP with essentially/truly infinite deaths has always bothered me. 

No consequences; no lawman nicking you off to jail if you're caught in town, no bounty hunters hunting your butt in groups, no stocks with villagers hurling fruit, no hangman, no military justice....etc.   It's not even minimally "realistic", not even within the limits of the genre.

Also MMO "generals" faction leaders etc. allow their "soldiers" to operate as completely independent vigilantes, something no sane commander would ever tolerate.  We have the balls to call the chaotic result a "War".

PVP is instead just an 8-bit fighting game, Street Fighter with infinite quarters.

Interesting isn't it - that a good consequences system hasn't been developed - it isn't really that hard if you concentrate some effort on it.

All of the above could be put in place without too much trouble.

  dreamsofwar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/04/09
Posts: 471

12/06/12 5:24:53 AM#58
Originally posted by Siveria
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by dreamsofwar
Auction houses. I'd much rather see Western MMO's adopt a concept that many Asian MMO's have used, player stalls. It adds to the social aspect of the game, allows for bartering, and it just adds more life and atmosphere to cities, and other parts of the world. Imagine seeing a few player stalls outside of raid entrances, its little things like that I think would make games more immersive.

Dear god NO.

 

Nothing is as grotesque an eyesore then having thousands of off-line people standing around anywhere they please setting up a shop.

 

Now I could buy this argument if it was at a players house but no, we do not need anything more to get people to clog up cities.

I have to agree with Azzamasin on this one, the whole stall idea alot of asian mmo's use is just terrible, it makes it a pain in the ass to find what your looking for since none of these games have anyway to search them (only exception is ragnarok online that has a player run bot that lists the items, sellers location etc and uploads them to a searchable database). The whole stall was and still is a horrible idea. AH is also better because it helps regulate prices, in a game with stalls people price things all over the place since there is no ingame way to check what a item is worth in general without bugging people. IMO they use the stall system just because the game devs want to be lazy and not have to code a AH. Almost every town in any mmo has tons of buildings that are bascally unused in anyway cept to make the town look more full. Its not that easy to code a properlly functioning AH, but coding a stall is piss easy so they just kinda cop out.

Haha to be honest I always liked it. It at least made cities seem busy, rather than a bunch of people standing around or the classic running and jumping around the city. It is a clutter but I always thought that was exciting, auction houses make the whole thing so faceless to me. Of course it is much, much easier. I can see why it would be a pain though.

I used to play a really obscure game called Endless Online years ago. It had no auction house or stalls, so all people could do was stand around the main square and in the bank and just shout what they were selling/buying. It was hectic but it was always great to go there. If it had an AH then it would have made the city dead, as it was notorious for the trade and verbal abuse people got there.

  ubernoobNTH

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/05
Posts: 5

12/06/12 7:24:52 PM#59

I'm truly split on this whole stall/auction house type thing.

I guess my favorite MMO would be EQ1 (up through Planes of Power.  After that it just started to grow more and more like WoW every day.  WoW has it's spot, but it's obviously not for a lot of us here.)

I loved the EC Tunnel ("Hey you!  Come check out what I got at t2.") and I also enjoyed the bazaar zone.  I think having a separate "market" zones/areas would be my preferred in this situation.  Set up stalls, face-to-face but the separate areas makes it so stalls aren't popping up everywhere in the worst places.

 

As for the original question?  I think questing and quest hubs.

 

Give me a game like EQ1 any day of the week, just with some modifications brought to it.

  Quorina

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/12
Posts: 43

12/06/12 7:46:39 PM#60
Originally posted by phantomghost

Quests in general.  I should say WoW Quests in general.

 

Oh you created a character... pick your reward.

Wow, you picked your first reward, choose another reward.

You took your first step, pick a reward. 

You equipped your reward, choose a reward.

You leveled from doing nothing, choose your reward.

You opened your inventory, choose a reward.

You opened another menu by pressing a button, take a reward.

You leveled again, take a reward.

You typed a message in chat, have a reward.

You spoke to a NPC, heres a reward.

You took your first quest, have a reward.

You spoke to the person standing next to the person who have you the quest, choose a reward.

 

You know, your post got me thinking. It's well known that the reward system that things have, such as games, gambling, sex, etc. stimulate dopamine (a neurotransmitter in the brain), which creates addiction. Is it possible that WoW has that sort of system in place to get you hooked when you first start playing? Maybe it's not unique to WoW, either, but to a lot of games.

Anyway, what annoys me the most about MMO concepts is the "kill this, fetch that" system that seems to be extremely common. BORING! 

Also  NPCs that you're supposed to kill or steal from or whatever just standing around not doing anything, waiting to be killed. Some games have fixed this a bit, but most have not. LotRO and RIFT, I've found, are notorious for this. WoW has tried to imrpove on it a bit with MoP, but it's still guilty of it as well. Let's liven up the world, shall we?

Something else that bugs me is grinding on the same repetitive content day in and day out. A game compelling you to complete the same daily quests because almost all the good rewards are gated behind them (WoW) or having to kill hundreds or even thousands of the same NPCs to complete deeds (LotRO) or having to do the same warfronts day in and day out just to gain some prestige and ranking (RIFT). When you complain about it you're told that MMOs simply just are not for you if you don't want to grind. I mean, really? Why MUST we grind? And if we grind, shouldn't it be a choice, possibly a pleasurable one, not simply because the game requires us to? I refuse to accept this, personally.

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