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Hardware  » AMD Says It Is Not Abandoning Socketed CPUs

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33 posts found
  Cabaloc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/05/12
Posts: 102

 
OP  12/05/12 12:21:20 PM#1

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Socketed-LGA-packaging-BGA-packaging-Kaveri-Chris-Cook,19570.html

 

Came across this and something makes me curious . preventing the consumer from upgrading the cpu because it is soldered into the motherboard . Ok whats going on here and what direction we going in ?

  13lake

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 122

12/05/12 12:46:06 PM#2
PCs with intel hardware will become classic consoles ?
  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3394

12/05/12 12:46:51 PM#3


Originally posted by Cabaloc
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Socketed-LGA-packaging-BGA-packaging-Kaveri-Chris-Cook,19570.html

 

Came across this and something makes me curious . preventing the consumer from upgrading the cpu because it is soldered into the motherboard . Ok whats going on here and what direction we going in ?


Well, to be honest, I wouldn't care if sockets went away. I would probably briefly mourn, because slotting a CPU into the socket for the first time feels a bit like Dr. Frankenstein implanting the brain into his new creation - but aside from that, I don't think much would change.

Long ago, CPUs were soldered onto the motherboard. It's cheaper than sockets, it's usually more reliable (one of the leading cause of CPU failure, I would easily imagine, is people putting them into the sockets incorrectly and then returning them as failed). And if I'm honest, rarely do I build a computer and later on upgrade the CPU without having a motherboard upgrade go with it (usually because of socket incompatibility).

The loss of the socket wouldn't mean the death of the desktop. It wouldn't even mean the death of the enthusiast community. It would be mildly inconveniencing for a small niche of users (mainly reviewers and hardcore overclockers). It would probably save $10-20 on the manufacturing price of CPU/Motherboards if they could be manufactured to be soldered in place (which is easy to automate, has low overhead cost, and doesn't require a big honkin' socket as an extra part).

  Zuvielify

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/11
Posts: 170

12/05/12 12:52:37 PM#4
Originally posted by Ridelynn

 


Originally posted by Cabaloc
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Socketed-LGA-packaging-BGA-packaging-Kaveri-Chris-Cook,19570.html

 

 

Came across this and something makes me curious . preventing the consumer from upgrading the cpu because it is soldered into the motherboard . Ok whats going on here and what direction we going in ?


 

Well, to be honest, I wouldn't care if sockets went away. I would probably briefly mourn, because slotting a CPU into the socket for the first time feels a bit like Dr. Frankenstein implanting the brain into his new creation - but aside from that, I don't think much would change.

Long ago, CPUs were soldered onto the motherboard. It's cheaper than sockets, it's usually more reliable (one of the leading cause of CPU failure, I would easily imagine, is people putting them into the sockets incorrectly and then returning them as failed). And if I'm honest, rarely do I build a computer and later on upgrade the CPU without having a motherboard upgrade go with it (usually because of socket incompatibility).

The loss of the socket wouldn't mean the death of the desktop. It wouldn't even mean the death of the enthusiast community. It would be mildly inconveniencing for a small niche of users (mainly reviewers and hardcore overclockers). It would probably save $10-20 on the manufacturing price of CPU/Motherboards if they could be manufactured to be soldered in place (which is easy to automate, has low overhead cost, and doesn't require a big honkin' socket as an extra part).

I agree with you. I don't think I've ever changed my CPU without replacing my motherboard.

 

The biggest loss I see with this is choice. Current motherboards support a wide range of chips because you can put any CPU in that matches the socket. If the CPUs are coupled with the motherboard, the options will go way down. I suspect what you'll see is just Low, Medium, and High end combinations, which may not necessarily be a bad thing. Sometimes a lot of choice is just distraction. 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/05/12 1:07:54 PM#5

By itself, I don't think this is too big a deal. I would think motherboard manufacturers aren't happy, because they would have to pick the CPU to put on a motherboard before they sell it, and if they pick the wrong one and stock up, they lose a bunch of money. If they wait for orders to come in, they run the risk of not supplying enough parts. I guess they have this issue now, but it would be even worse.

It would be funny if, instead of making PCs more standardized and giving Intel more control, it actually did the opposite. People would buy motherboards, but it would just be a board with the CPU attached and end users bolted that board onto a mainboard that had everything else.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

12/05/12 1:13:28 PM#6

I see it as big deal.   This might mean that mid range processors will be paired with mid range price motherboards and higher range processors like i5 or i7 today will be paired with very expensive motherboard leaving consumer no choice and increasing price of whole pc.  Also competition on motherboards market will be smaller.

I see only minus as far for me as consusmer.  I will not support it.  If I will have a choice like AMD chips or maybe in more distant future ARM desktops - I will show Intel my middle finger if they go with that.

  defector1968

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/10
Posts: 400

Real Animal lovers are ONLY the vegetarians

12/05/12 1:18:52 PM#7
Originally posted by lizardbones

By itself, I don't think this is too big a deal. I would think motherboard manufacturers aren't happy, because they would have to pick the CPU to put on a motherboard before they sell it, and if they pick the wrong one and stock up, they lose a bunch of money. If they wait for orders to come in, they run the risk of not supplying enough parts. I guess they have this issue now, but it would be even worse.

It would be funny if, instead of making PCs more standardized and giving Intel more control, it actually did the opposite. People would buy motherboards, but it would just be a board with the CPU attached and end users bolted that board onto a mainboard that had everything else.

they will create boards with both CPUs as all the VGA card companies create with both GPUs

my biggest concern will be that when if the CPU dies, we need to change and the mainboard with it. that means more money to spend

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/05/12 1:19:45 PM#8


Originally posted by fenistil
I see it as big deal.   This might mean that mid range processors will be paired with mid range price motherboards and higher range processors like i5 or i7 today will be paired with very expensive motherboard leaving consumer no choice and increasing price of whole pc.  Also competition on motherboards market will be smaller.

I see only minus as far for me as consusmer.  I will not support it.  If I will have a choice like AMD chips or maybe in more distant future ARM desktops - I will show Intel my middle finger if they go with that.




Intel isn't operating in a closed system. There are motherboard manufacturers and OEMs that will be participating. I don't see anyone abandoning Intel for desktops, unless AMD creates some kind of miracle processor, but the manufacturers are going to have to compete with each other. It would largely be based on the CPU speed, with the motherboard taking a backseat. If one manufacturer has an i5-3570 cpu $10 cheaper than another manufacturer, then they'll probably sell more parts, and they won't lose money on the percentage because they'll use a lower end motherboard bit.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/05/12 1:26:08 PM#9


Originally posted by defector1968

Originally posted by lizardbones By itself, I don't think this is too big a deal. I would think motherboard manufacturers aren't happy, because they would have to pick the CPU to put on a motherboard before they sell it, and if they pick the wrong one and stock up, they lose a bunch of money. If they wait for orders to come in, they run the risk of not supplying enough parts. I guess they have this issue now, but it would be even worse. It would be funny if, instead of making PCs more standardized and giving Intel more control, it actually did the opposite. People would buy motherboards, but it would just be a board with the CPU attached and end users bolted that board onto a mainboard that had everything else.
they will create boards with both CPUs as all the VGA card companies create with both GPUs

my biggest concern will be that when if the CPU dies, we need to change and the mainboard with it. that means more money to spend




That would be bad for the person where the CPU dies. That doesn't happen often though, and it would happen less often with the part being part of the motherboard. Now that I've said that, I'll be the person it happens to though.

Gah. GPUs hardwired into the boards that you can't bypass would be a nightmare. When you first buy it, things would be great, but a year later? I say again, GAH!

Then again, maybe better software would result. Developers would have to write better software to get better performance. Imagine software on your PC that was as optimized as well as the software for your game consoles.

I think, overall most consumers will spend less money. On the supply side, money will get concentrated into fewer suppliers, with Intel holding more of the money. Other than that though, there are a lot of things that could happen. AMD might end up dominating the market (ha ha), or the market might push back enough to force a change...or people might just shrug and buy a new PC every year.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Terranah

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 3616

12/05/12 1:26:20 PM#10

As a casual user but semihardcore gamer, I don't see it as a big deal.  I've changed a lot of components over the years but I've never changed a cpu.  By the time I would think about changing out a cpu, it's probably time to think about upgrading the entire rig anyway, which I do about every 5 years.  And if I was going to change the cpu, I would be changing out the motherboard too.  But that's me, the casual user.  Ignorant, but happy.

 

 

  Ichmen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/06
Posts: 1234

hatred enriches.life is a prison, death a release.

12/05/12 1:28:28 PM#11

id rather keep the socketting.  sure it can be a pain making sure the cpu matches the mobo, but frankly the only people who are effected by that are the custom builders. 

id rather not have to fork out 500 bucks to replace a mobo that fried or cpu that fried. as they are sodered together. 

honestly if i wanted a factory built pc i would buy them... and i dont want those paper weights >>"

CPU: Intel Core i7 CPU 860 2.8GHz
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  Reizla

Elite Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 3032

MMORPGs are no longer about the mass multi-user anymore *sadly*

12/05/12 1:35:29 PM#12
Originally posted by Ridelynn

 


Originally posted by Cabaloc
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Socketed-LGA-packaging-BGA-packaging-Kaveri-Chris-Cook,19570.html

Came across this and something makes me curious . preventing the consumer from upgrading the cpu because it is soldered into the motherboard . Ok whats going on here and what direction we going in ?


And if I'm honest, rarely do I build a computer and later on upgrade the CPU without having a motherboard upgrade go with it (usually because of socket incompatibility).

So far, I've upgraded at least 3 CPU's since I started building PC's in 1992. My latest upgrade was earlier this year from an AMD X3 to an X6. If the choice is up to me, I always buy more expenive moatherboards with support for (future) CPU's than that I'm forced to buy some crap that a board-builder thinks I might like. Honestly, it's much cheaper to buy a bit more expensive board (mine was €30 more than the standard one) and upgrade later for a cheaper price (2nd X6 was €125) than that I'd have to buy twice a whole mainboard witch CPU and pay more in the end...

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  OG_Zorvan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 646

12/05/12 1:44:48 PM#13

The problem i have with this is it would just be like those motherboard+CPU combo deals you see on Newegg, BestBuy, etc.

I never buy the combo deals because inevitably I like the motherboard features but the CPU sucks, or I like the CPU but the motherboard has less features than the cardboard box it ships in.

Also, I'm usually able to still beat the prices of those combos by shopping around for the CPU and motherboard individually.

And finally, because sometimes you do end up with a bad CPU and having to yank the entire motherboard just to replace a burnt CPU does not appeal to me at all.

One of the major reasons Apple PC's got left in the dust years ago. You couldn't upgrade individual components as Apple/IBM would glue, solder, and tape down anything and everything, even the damn ram sticks were glued in.

What's next after integrated CPU/MB, CPU/MB/RAM? Then CPU/MB?RAM/GPU?

No thanks.

Edit: Don't make me start printing my own circuit boards again, dammit.

EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  cronius77

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1303

12/05/12 1:48:32 PM#14
the last ive read about AMD anyways was they were moving away from CPUs for computers and moving development into handhelds http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ultramobile-tablet-apu-cpu,18546.html
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/05/12 1:51:46 PM#15


Originally posted by Reizla

Originally posted by Ridelynn  

Originally posted by Cabaloc http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Socketed-LGA-packaging-BGA-packaging-Kaveri-Chris-Cook,19570.html Came across this and something makes me curious . preventing the consumer from upgrading the cpu because it is soldered into the motherboard . Ok whats going on here and what direction we going in ?
And if I'm honest, rarely do I build a computer and later on upgrade the CPU without having a motherboard upgrade go with it (usually because of socket incompatibility).
So far, I've upgraded at least 3 CPU's since I started building PC's in 1992. My latest upgrade was earlier this year from an AMD X3 to an X6. If the choice is up to me, I always buy more expenive moatherboards with support for (future) CPU's than that I'm forced to buy some crap that a board-builder thinks I might like. Honestly, it's much cheaper to buy a bit more expensive board (mine was €30 more than the standard one) and upgrade later for a cheaper price (2nd X6 was €125) than that I'd have to buy twice a whole mainboard witch CPU and pay more in the end...



AMD has no plans to go with Intel's socket scheme. Someday you'll be able to go from an X12 to an X24 with no problem. :-)

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13389

12/05/12 2:19:06 PM#16

I doubt that Intel will entirely abandon socketed CPUs, either.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if they end up having several bins in a generation that are BGA-only, but still offer socketed versions of the few bins that enthusiasts tend to care about.  If, among Ivy Bridge processors, the Core i3-3220 (which isn't competitive with AMD this generation, but Intel might be competitive at that price point in future generations), Core i5-3570K, and Core i7-3770K had LGA 1155 versions, while the rest were BGA-only, would that really be so troublesome?  On New Egg, the 3570K has 708 reviews, the 3770K has 417 reviews, and the other 13 Ivy Bridge processors all added together only have 482 reviews.

There are two things that I'd find problematic about abandoning sockets entirely.  First, I don't want to have to replace a $200 CPU that is still perfectly good just because a $100 motherboard broke.  I'm less worried about the other way around, as processors are pretty durable.  Second, no sockets will mean vastly fewer feature combinations.  You'll probably still find a good number of options on the two or three bins that matter, but if you want to go off the beaten path a bit, good luck.

Ever try to find a sub-$1000 laptop with a sensible hardware configuration?  They're few and far between, and if you want something that is not merely sensible for someone, but sensible for you personally, you're likely to be out of luck.  I really don't want desktops to go down that route.

Processor upgrades may well become less important in the future.  When's the last Intel processors that were a sensible upgrade for people with an older motherboard?  You could make a case for Gulftown in 2010, but in the sub-$500 market (which is nearly the whole thing from a volume standpoint), you'd have to go back to Wolfdale and Yorkfield in 2008.  As more functions get integrated into the same die as the CPU, the likelihood of needing a new socket to accommodate the new functions increases.  If every generation would need a new socket anyway, what use is the option of a processor upgrade?

  Teala

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 7433

"Really officer, they're herbs."

12/05/12 2:42:45 PM#17

I read the article, and it stated that though Intel was moving toward the BGA packaging of CPU's, Intel has not commented on whether they will continue to support socketed CPU's.    AMD says they will, because there is a still a huge market for high-end gaming rigs.   I suspect Intel sees it the same way.    It is easier for them to make MOBO's with the CPU's as part of them for the mass market computers(laptops, tablets, cheap desktop), but I think they see that there is still a need for socketed CPU's for the simple fact that there are still mass amounts of gamers that use custom/home built PC's.   

I haven't bought a whole computer(pre-built) since I think 1999.    It is easier to buy the parts and put it together yourself.    You get what you want that way for a lot less cost.    I think there will always be a good size market for high-end gaming rigs.   I just wish to see them get smaller and become more moduler.    Imagine a home gaming rig not only being able to stack vid cards, like we do now, but CPU's as well.   We'd all have like little super computers for gaming.    ^_^

 

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3394

12/05/12 5:44:39 PM#18


Originally posted by lizardbones
By itself, I don't think this is too big a deal. I would think motherboard manufacturers aren't happy, because they would have to pick the CPU to put on a motherboard before they sell it, and if they pick the wrong one and stock up, they lose a bunch of money. If they wait for orders to come in, they run the risk of not supplying enough parts. I guess they have this issue now, but it would be even worse.

It would be funny if, instead of making PCs more standardized and giving Intel more control, it actually did the opposite. People would buy motherboards, but it would just be a board with the CPU attached and end users bolted that board onto a mainboard that had everything else.

Well, I don't think it's that drastic. Think about the standard gaming computer - really there are only a handful of current generation CPU's that even get considered, despite the high number of SKU's of different CPUs

Today, if your buying a computer, you get:
Core i7 3770k (high budget)
Core i5 3570k (mid budget)
AMD FX-6300 (low budget)
AMD A10-5700 (super budget budget)

And then the motherboards are not that diverse either - despite the sheer number available, really it comes down to
A) Which brand you want
B) How heavy duty power circuitry you want
C) Peripheral options (RAID Controllers, built-in I/O, SLI/CFX, etc) - most of which can be added on after the fact.

You may consider other CPU's for core count or TDP for more specific purposes, but the vast majority of current CPU SKU's are for niche markets: High core count servers, laptop bins, small form factor ULV low TDP bins, OEM bins, etc. that just aren't appealing to someone building their own computer, and really aren't necessary to market.

As for your last paragraph, that reminds me a lot of the old Pentium 2 SEC design, where the CPU was sold on a daughtercard and plugged into the motherboard into a slot similar to a PCI slot.

  SoulStain

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/12
Posts: 204

12/05/12 5:49:36 PM#19
By the time I'm ready to upgrade my CPU ..I'm ready to upgrade the motherboard for various reasons including the fact that my old MB wont accept the CPU I want. I really wouldn't have an issue with soldering the cpu to the MB.
  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3394

12/05/12 5:56:19 PM#20


Originally posted by OG_Zorvan
One of the major reasons Apple PC's got left in the dust years ago. You couldn't upgrade individual components as Apple/IBM would glue, solder, and tape down anything and everything, even the damn ram sticks were glued in.

Ironically enough, Apple is the top 5 in the US in PC Sales (by volume) and top 10 globally - considering they only sell Macintosh PCs, they only have a few models available, and they still glue, solder, and tape everything down (I would say even worse today than it used to be). And that doesn't consider anything with iOS on it, which makes up the vast majority of Apple's volume.

I wouldn't cite hardware upgradeability as any reason Apple was "left in the dust". In fact, I'd argue that today, Apple is hardly in the dust at all, in the Global Top 100 by revenue, and the biggest company of all companies - #1 in the world - by total value, for 2012.

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