I find it endlessly amusing how people think Darkfall's carebear ruleset is "hardcore."  Get rid of town towers, then we'll talk.

The entire premise of this discussion is a Straw Man logical fallacy.  The genre of mmorpg's being in its infancy is having its growth stunted by this type of idiotic posturing.  Developers need to concentrate on AI.  It is revolting how easy every mmorpg is to play from a pve perspective.  There is no challenge whatsoever.  Everything my character does in pve can be scripted to run from a bot, very easily.  This should not be happening.  Mobs should gain skills fighting other mobs, they should use those skills against us, they should run away when low on health and group up when out-numbered.  They should attack us from behind and use obstacles in the environment to hide.  Mobs should respond to player interaction, where if I help one mob fight another mob, the first mob should gain favor towards me.  This could be extrapolated into factional warfare, where the mobs help me fend off enemy players and mobs from other factions.  Town npcs should be on schedules, and should require players to resupply their wares if needed. 

But screw all that, let's just focus on how pve and pvp should always be segregated, ignoring the glaring fact that players are part of the environment.

Threads like this(whose opinions I see mirrored by so many developers) are the reason why this industry is plagued with so much utter trash, why all the good players have retired(myself included, though I'm not good), and it makes me literally sick.

Originally posted by Siveria

Now you might argue about Eve Online, but that game was near death till Plex came out and people could play for free on someone else's dollar.

I wont argue with you but on one quite silly statement. The one above.

Eve Online wasn't near death, it has never been near death. It is one of the few MMO's that actually has had a steady, albeit somewhat slow, increase in population since its launch. Its a rock compared to every other titles that crumble early after launch in terms of player population.

So, stop saying silly things. ;) Allrighty then, with this being said. Keep on the discussion!

(Note: To counter your obvious first thought: "Ah, he must be a fanboy!" - No, I'm not. I played Eve for about 3 months, years ago, it's not a game for me. BUT, I do not like games being described as something they clearly are not.)

Originally posted by Thoric485

Darkfall would've died in under a year if it was released in the state it was in 2009, as a PvE title. The FFA PvP is the only thing that's kept it alive for 3,5 years.

true i think uw is going to try and make the pve more rewarding

I hate rules. Seriously, who came up with those rules.

Ze Greek game will probably fail but not because of reasons you mentioned. This game lacks so much more than just what you said. I still disagree with your train of thoughts. Respecfully.

100% made up opinion rules.

I cannot write any other comment because I would hate to point out your stupidity and I must behave myself.

Rule#2 - Any MMO that forces PVP fails.
Rule#3 - Enticing PVEers to PVP is different than forcing them to. NO scenario/idea that forces it has succeeded.

Hard to understand what you are talking about. Open world pvp is offering an additional choice, it is entirely the opposite of 'forcing'. You must have a really shite time gaming if you think/feel that you are bieng forced to do anything...What you do in an MMORPG is your CHOICE, thats kinda the most basic concept of ROLE PLAYING (thats the 'R' and 'P' in RPG, the 'G' stands for game...Which, you know, is something done for fun...But I guess you missed that).

In fact, it is players with this warped view of mmos that inflict 'forced' scenarios on other people ~ limiting choices whenever it is something you dont like, rather than just doing something else...

Rule#1 - MMORPGs are PVE games with PVP elements, not the other way around.

And this is just ass backwards...MMOs are about people interacting, be it cooperatively or killeratively (I made that word up, before any grammer nazies run off to check their dick-tionaries...). PVE is one of many components within a game world that underpin interaction, alongside trading, economies, parties, raids, guilds, factions, crafting, stories and lore, battlegrounds, cities, quest hubs, chat channels, and shoving pointy metal objects up the ass of people like OP... 

Originally posted by JWTuna

Rule#2 - Any MMO that forces PVP fails.
Rule#3 - Enticing PVEers to PVP is different than forcing them to. NO scenario/idea that forces it has succeeded.

 

Hard to understand what you are talking about. Open world pvp is offering an additional choice, it is entirely the opposite of 'forcing'. You must have a really shite time gaming if you think/feel that you are bieng forced to do anything...What you do in an MMORPG is your CHOICE, thats kinda the most basic concept of ROLE PLAYING (thats the 'R' and 'P' in RPG, the 'G' stands for game...Which, you know, is something done for fun...But I guess you missed that).

 

In fact, it is players with this warped view of mmos that inflict 'forced' scenarios on other people ~ limiting choices whenever it is something you dont like, rather than just doing something else...

 

Rule#1 - MMORPGs are PVE games with PVP elements, not the other way around.

 

And this is just ass backwards...MMOs are about people interacting, be it cooperatively or killeratively (I made that word up, before any grammer nazies run off to check their dick-tionaries...). PVE is one of many components within a game world that underpin interaction, alongside trading, economies, parties, raids, guilds, factions, crafting, stories and lore, battlegrounds, cities, quest hubs, chat channels, and shoving pointy metal objects up the ass of people like OP... 

What this guy said.

Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by Siveria

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by Siveria

So in case your wondering why I say Darkfall: uw will be dead after 3 months, its because of the rules below and the fact that its been proven that in todays mmo market ffa full loot pvp games just do not survive anymore sadly, Now you might argue about Eve Online, but that game was near death till Plex came out and people could play for free on someone else's dollar.

Read the general mmorpg rules below. Especally number 3, because this is where games like mortal online and darkfall failed. Also before you say I dislike pvp, i don't, I don't mind if its forced, what I do dislike is the full loot aspect of it, well that and the fact max lv chars can pick on lowbie/newbies and get away with it.. usually, there are sometimes other players who will take time out of their day to protect said lowbies. Take the full loot away from darkfall UW and i'd defentally play. Don't mind so much about picking on lowbies, its not something I do and i feel people that do that are cowards who can't handle a real/even fight.

Here are the rules below, and for the most part they are true. Number 3 is one of the major reasons why games like MO, DF etc fail. That and what I mentioned earlier.

Rule#1 - MMORPGs are PVE games with PVP elements, not the other way around.
Rule#2 - Any MMO that forces PVP fails.
Rule#3 - Enticing PVEers to PVP is different than forcing them to. NO scenario/idea that forces it has succeeded.
Rule#4 - The same as Rule#3 can be applied to RP - you cannot force it.
Rule#5 - Before you get lippy, remember Rule#1.

You really have no idea what your talking about. EVE wasn't almost dead before PLEX came out... that is just ignorance right there. 

First off YOUR rules aren't remotely close to how MMO's should be designed as it alienates one group or the other. You need to look at Bartle and some of his work. He had it right on how MMO's should be developed and how games in general should strive to accomadate each type of gamers playstyle. 

If you develop soley with PVE in mind you get games like SWTOR. If you develop with PVP soley in mind you end up with games like Mortal (lack of funding). You have to mix the two in order to be successful. WoW wouldn't be where it is today if it didn't have PvP as a main focus of game. EVE wouldn't be where it is today if PVP wasn't the main focus of the game. 

No you need to design with both play styles in mind and mix the two naturally together, something akin to what Lineage 2 did. 

If you alienate one style you won't be successful because your purposely alienating 50% of your obtainable playerbase. Yes  PVPers and PVEers are close to an even split. Mainly because most PVPers enjoy PVE as well and most PVEers enjoy PVP as well. 

While RP can be put on the backburner for development as they are no where close to being a majority, there really is no reason to not accomadate them. All they usually want is decent animations on emotes, sitable chairs, Naming Policy with an easy way to report offensive names, and chat bubbles. Nothing major when you consider what PVEers and PVPers both demand. 

 

TL;DR 

 

Your rules are a result of ignorance. 

Hate to tell you but the mmo market is mostly pve'ers and alot less of a pvper population. Look at Aion, Decent amount of players but maybe 10% of them on each faction ever shows up for the pvp events in the abyss, while the rest who are high enough in level/skill just stick to pve. Its liek this in almost all mmo's that have both game modes, onyl exception might be dark age of camelot, that games pvp setup was just godlike, why the hell no dev tries to copy it is beyond me. It was perfect you had your pve world, then you had your open faction vs faction 3 way pvp zone with stuff to do like take keeps and such, and the most important part which most games with pvp forget to add, is a reason to pvp, daoc's pvp unlocked a ton of new abilities and such for your characters, that you could not get any other way, its much better than handing pvp'ers items IMO.

Also the rules are something I found on another forum, and they have been proven true more than once. IMO the pve/pvp split is prob 80-90% of mmo'ers are pve and 10-20% are the pvp people.  A hardcore pvp game caters to a very VERY small niche market that as most games like MO etc show, just do not work. MO did have crap for a budget though. These types of games have a low budget because there is such a small playerbase that investors don't wanna bother risking it on them since other than games like UO and Eve most games of that type don't make it.

This arguement is so stupid. Its like saying all PVE games will fail because FFXIV was a strictly PVE focused game and it is considered the biggest MMO failure to date. Yet I bet you will argue it was other things that caused that game to fail and not it being focused on PVE. 

You know the difference between me and you is; I acknowledge it had other flaws and probably could have been a decent game had it of worked those flaws out before release. The same can be said about Mortal and Darkfall. 

As for the PVP and PVE split. Lets take a look at a very popular game WOW:

116 PVP servers

117 PVE servers

Seems pretty even to me. Yes thats US servers couldn't be assed looking up EU and China. 

As usual however, WoW is the anaomoly, not the standard. Look at any other major mmo out there and you'll see PvP servers outnumbered greatly by the PvE servers.

PvP has been the minority in normal mmos since Trammel hit UO.

Now, does this mean there is not a large group of PvP'ers out there that could make a PvP mmo just as successful as the major PvE mmos? If course not.

EvE is a good start, but not quite there ( one big problem with EvE is many people feel disassociated from the game due to spaceships vs. humanoid avatars ).

Even the ubiquitous UO survived until now solely because they took the focus off FFA PvP and opened the game to more than one style of play.

I would guarantee you if you took the focus off of supporting the ganker playstyle in Darkfall and opened it up to ALL playstyles ( the explorer, the PvE'er, the commodities/market player, etc., etc.), Darkfall in my opinion would be a smash success and would at the very least be on par with EvE, if not surpassing ( again, the whole spaceship vs. avatar thing ) it completely.

Everyone and their mother has tried copying WoW and failed. Only one has tried copying EvE ( Perpetuum Online ), and they copied it so blatantly ( everything right down to the menus, only replacing spaceships with robots ) as well as so crudely ( seriously, their coders suck almost as badly as Henrik's little team of idiots )  they failed.

If you built a game with Darkfall's atmosphere and world with EvE's multi-playstyle gameplay  ( make your own damn UI and menus, etc. ), you'd have a hit. I'd play that shit in a second.

 

Did you really just call statistical information an anomaly... Interesting. Okay how about RIFT. Sure it doesn't have as many PVP servers, but TRION came out with there statistical data and reported that conquest was there most popular feature by a large margin (3 way PvP environment). 

However you slice it there is about an even split between the PvP and PVE acitivity in MMO's. 

As for the rest of your post, you should read my initial post in this thread. You would come to the conclusion that I agree with you. There needs to be more than PVE or more than PVP to do in a game for it to be largely successful. You need both environments to grow and you need to do it with your own style or be labeled a clone and fail off that premise alone. 

If RIFT would have stayed with its WOW clone development cycle instead of going its own way, it wouldn't still be alive off subs right now. It would have went the way of SWTOR or WAR very quickly. 

Originally posted by 123443211234

Ya ya we get it you don't like darkfall.  So why are you still trolling our forums?  The first Darkfall lasted for 3 years and allowed the company to go from 12 employees to around 60 employess.  They opened an additional server (NA) six months after release.  Name another mmo company (other than eve)  that has expanded and grown their servers and company after release.

 

This game will not fail, sure it may not have millions of subs, but it was never intended to.  You see Aventurine isn't in it for the money they are in it for a game they would like to play. 

 

FFA full loot pvp is a niche, one that some people like myself find very fun and entertaining, in fact so much so that all of the currently released mmo play like steaming piles of crap to me and look to be blatant greedy money grabs by their devs.

 

Just because you don't want to leave carebear land and actually experience a great game doesn't mean plenty of others won't.  Darkfall UW will be around years from now.

I always get a chuckle when I see people use this line. You show me one single company that is not a non-profit or charitable organization that isn't out to make a buck.

And as for this game never intending to have millions of subs, I think that down inside this company would LOVE to have a million subs, what company wouldn't?

FFS.

Originally posted by Siveria

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Planetside 2 is an MMORPG.

I somehow doubt Planetside 2 is PVE :P

In other words, the OP has no real idea what he's going on about :)

Planetside 2 also sucks balls. And it is hardly a mmorpg, its missing most of the things that make an mmo"RPG" a mmorpg, like content, storyline, stuff to do, itemization.

Well Planetside 2 isn't a MMORPG it's a MMOFPS, so sure it's missing all of things IF it was a MMORPG, but you see it isn't and provides what it is supose to provide it's players, non stop large scale FPS action, which makes it a MMOFPS

As for your topic, I slightly agree on that I feel that even with world pvp it has to be a option for players to choose to either go into pvp, type of being flagged for pvp or choose not to.

But I do feel a MMORPG should have both PVP/PVE and I love world pvp aslong it's by choice and not forced on those who enjoy PVE mainly, I do enjoy PVE the most but the occasional PVP is more then welcome every now and then. Though still prefer pvp in other genre of games allot more.

Originally posted by Slampig

Originally posted by 123443211234

Ya ya we get it you don't like darkfall.  So why are you still trolling our forums?  The first Darkfall lasted for 3 years and allowed the company to go from 12 employees to around 60 employess.  They opened an additional server (NA) six months after release.  Name another mmo company (other than eve)  that has expanded and grown their servers and company after release.

 

This game will not fail, sure it may not have millions of subs, but it was never intended to.  You see Aventurine isn't in it for the money they are in it for a game they would like to play. 

 

FFA full loot pvp is a niche, one that some people like myself find very fun and entertaining, in fact so much so that all of the currently released mmo play like steaming piles of crap to me and look to be blatant greedy money grabs by their devs.

 

Just because you don't want to leave carebear land and actually experience a great game doesn't mean plenty of others won't.  Darkfall UW will be around years from now.

I always get a chuckle when I see people use this line. You show me one single company that is not a non-profit or charitable organization that isn't out to make a buck.

And as for this game never intending to have millions of subs, I think that down inside this company would LOVE to have a million subs, what company wouldn't?

FFS.

So you support greed then.  Yes, Aventurine makes a tidy profit, NO they are not out for the greedy money grab.  If they were they would not make statements like "we are making the game we want to play".  They would simply copy all of the other crappy wow clone new f2p models like all the other trash out there.

There is a big difference between being greedy and making a profit.  The be all end all for Aventurine is not to make hundreds of milliions and grow their company to 1000's of employess.  It is merely to "make the game they want to play".

Your rational is severly flawed there is a large difference between a for profit and a greedy for profit.  This can be found in not only the way they treat their employees within the company, but also how they treat their customers and their products.   What you seem to be saying is that only "walmart" style games are worth making and investing in.  That is simply not true and only shows your own arrogance and ignorance of people's motivations.  Greed does not equal better, it almost always means worse.

Originally posted by Azoth
So UO was not a success ?

      Not really until Trammel came out...That is when it gained the most subs and held onto them.....The majority of gamers don't want to play games where at any given second someone can take everything they have in the blink of an eye and to have to pay for it then forget it.

Originally posted by JWTuna

Rule#2 - Any MMO that forces PVP fails.
Rule#3 - Enticing PVEers to PVP is different than forcing them to. NO scenario/idea that forces it has succeeded.

 

Hard to understand what you are talking about. Open world pvp is offering an additional choice, it is entirely the opposite of 'forcing'. You must have a really shite time gaming if you think/feel that you are bieng forced to do anything...What you do in an MMORPG is your CHOICE, thats kinda the most basic concept of ROLE PLAYING (thats the 'R' and 'P' in RPG, the 'G' stands for game...Which, you know, is something done for fun...But I guess you missed that).

 

In fact, it is players with this warped view of mmos that inflict 'forced' scenarios on other people ~ limiting choices whenever it is something you dont like, rather than just doing something else...

Care to explain me how Open World PvP is entirely the opposite of "forcing"?? Its not an additional choice at all, its there and you need to deal with it. Sure in a owPvP flag system you kinda have the choice, but in a owPvP FFA full loot, you don't.

Compared this to instanced BG's, if I don't want to join them, I just don't and it doesn't change anything to me. In a owPvP game, its there and you need to deal with it. You don't have the option of not joining the owPvP.

Well you can not realy have a successful "sandbox" without both pve and pvp, crafting, housing, exploration, and much more. They do claim DFUW is a sandbox, so they should give both pve and pvp some love. Im good with pvp, but i enjoy pve also. And often times taking a break from one role to another is just relaxing.

And for those of you that think PS2 is a MMORPG........ LOL at you. PS2 is a shooter, they add MMOFPS to it, but still just a shooter, and the onlything that makes it a mmo is the persistant world. But is in no way, shape, or form a MMORPG! Shows many here have no idea what a real mmo is 

Planetside2 has no business being brought up in this type of thread, let alone in this sub forum,  but since its some how is being used to prove some sort of point, a couple of things to keep in mind:

1. PS2  has no PVE , nor did the first game.

2. PS and PS2 intentionally made no PVE , despite talks,  both games focused on PVP, was marketed to be about PVP, was Born and will die With PVP being its focus,  So no Raid Bosses, no F---in gear score, No Quest lines or numbers popping above your enemies head when you shoot them. 

3. MMOFPS. 

there are countless videos of the developers and marketing team upfront, in the public,  in FRONT OF THOUSANDS, of other people in several gaming events of them saying this. Anyone saying this is a MMORPG their whole arguement becomes invalid; and not by me, by the dev team and smed himself, got a problem with it, take it up with them.

4. Planetsides philosophy in pvp Differs from Darkfall on the premise that  Pside and Pside2 adopted the motto

"a 5 minute player can  take out a 5 year player at any time given the situation is right."  <-- what does that mean?

it means this: 

http://www.twitch.tv/fortyse7en/b/343549393

OF COURSE, half of you will not look at the video or understand whats going on, so ill spell it out to you.

If skilled enough and with the right weapon, you can take a vanilla character, and kill another character that has all the weapons, certs and advancements..

Darkfall in some form, can do the same thing but answer me this:

a. how common place is it to see a next to no level player to own a maxed out player?

b. how many players can claim to kill a maxed out player with the weakest weapon possible?

not gonna say i know alot about darkfall,  I dont, but the threads and posts here and on the official forums suggest its not all that common, unless its a group of lowbies taking down a high level player.

The reason FFA full loot PvP games fail is the players pure and simple.

The people that play these games do so because they want to behave like douchebags and the ruleset allows them to behave like douchebags, which for some reason they get a perverse kick out of. 

This then turns everyone else off of the game, you are just left with a small core of douchebags being douches to each other, this is not attractive to new players, game fails.

Darkfall may not be the perfect MMORPG... however I completely disagree with the OP and quite frankly I don't think he understands how MMORPGs were at the time of their creation.  In the begining game designers were attempting to create virtual worlds players could live in... such games as UO had few restrictions on the players actions because in recreating a world it would be silly to stop players from taking whatever actions they so desired.  Only in the modern era of gaming have MMORPGs become hand-holding story-time games where PvE was the main focus.... it use to be that both PvE and PvP were focused on at the same level.  

Darkfall hopefully will finally realize its potential on the market... the OP and others like him may not like the harsh rulesets... but those of us that do because we do want a virtual world without limitations will enjoy the game in a way no themepark MMO player could ever understand.