[mod edit]

A quick scan of your post history gives a pretty clear indication of your dislike of DF:UW style of gameplay... My question is, why do you feel the need to go out of your way to "hate" on a style of gameplay that you don't like, but has absolutely no impact on you if you don't play the game? It's certainly not like every game coming out is seeing the success of the full loot pvp style and copying it. In other posts you talk about how (basically) stupid and immature the people who like full loot pvp are, but you're so intolerant of anything you don't like that you feel the need to jump all over DF:UW. (pot, kettle, black, anyone?) I'm pretty sure AV and everyone who plays DF/DF:UW fully admits it's a niche market for a small group of people. Why do you feel the need to try and diminish their enjoyment of it?

I happen to think that a "PvE" ruleset server (with more "friendly" loot/PvP) rules would suceed in DF:UW, but that's just not AV's style so I don't think it will happen.

Originally posted by Siveria

Originally posted by Azoth
So UO was not a success ?

...Now a days no one ever cares or shows consideration for their fellow player, except the rare instances of players like me...

Flaunting your consideration for other players to show off your good nature is a sign of hubris. I wish people wouldn't post things like this. Just do good for the sake of it. 

Originally posted by mehoron

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

---

Originally posted by Azoth
So UO was not a success ?

---

It did better after the PvE rule set was implemented. They reached their peak of 250,000 people during that time. I thought it was 278,000, but Wikipedia never lies.

Eve seems pretty successful. It took a lot of time, but nobody considers Eve a failure. I don't know that I'd call Darkfall a failure either, since they made enough money to write another game, even if it uses a lot of assets from an existing game.

I don't think the OP's premise is valid.

 

I don't think it's invalid, but it doesn't hit on any issues. It's more a history lesson, then saying "It will fail cause I think the others have failed"

I don't believe that people should stop making FFA games cause of history, since as it's been indicated FFA games are alive and well. But the OP never goes into detail about why they feel it's a failure.

It pretty much comes down to opinion.  Fail never means the same thing to the individual.  Im sure in the OPs mind..DF 2 will fail even if it gains 6 mill subs and steadily keeps them for 20 years ( <---an example, dont knock me for using some hyperbole).    Really though whats the point of even defending DF...your not gonna change the OPs opinion and he isnt gonna change yours. Might as well let  the thread die.  Unless you like getting trolled, then by all means continue

Originally posted by mehoron

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

---

Originally posted by Azoth
So UO was not a success ?

---

It did better after the PvE rule set was implemented. They reached their peak of 250,000 people during that time. I thought it was 278,000, but Wikipedia never lies.

Eve seems pretty successful. It took a lot of time, but nobody considers Eve a failure. I don't know that I'd call Darkfall a failure either, since they made enough money to write another game, even if it uses a lot of assets from an existing game.

I don't think the OP's premise is valid.

 

I don't think it's invalid, but it doesn't hit on any issues. It's more a history lesson, then saying "It will fail cause I think the others have failed"

I don't believe that people should stop making FFA games cause of history, since as it's been indicated FFA games are alive and well. But the OP never goes into detail about why they feel it's a failure.

(S)he didn't have to go into detail as the OP spelled it out plain as day in there post. PvP focused games don't succeed because they are PvP focused. Which is entirely untrue and not the reason games like MO and Darkfall didn't do as well as they should have. 

It was poor planning, poor development, bad coding, and mainly a lack of funding and talent. 

Henrick is why Mortal failed, the guy has no clue how to run a development team or how to find true talent to bring ideas to life. Mortal failed as soon as they released the dogs to the CBTs and everyone realized it was a broken monstrocity. It had nothing to do with the PVP or its focus on PVP, but everything to do with bugs and broken mechanics/false promises. 

Originally posted by evilized

Planetside (and PS2) are MMOFPS not MMORPG.

 Semantics; I know, right!

 

Don't worry guys, the Valient White Knight Siveria will save us from ourselves.

I'd say I am more on the lines of a Neutral Grey-ish Knight actually. Only main issue I/others have with df that will turn them away is the full looting, I am telling you if that was removed they would gain alot more subs than they would lose by pissing off the very few people who are all for full looting. It would bve sort of a middle ground, I don't mind being ganked if I don't lose my gear, even if you just keep what you have equipped and they can loot everything else would be good. that way you cannot be stripped naked and left with nothing. Just be sure to be smart enough to bank your money before you leave town.

Here is some proof that I think applies to my above . . . all game devs should watch this.

There is no perfect Pepsi

Plain, Spicey and Extra Chunky speghetti sauce.. . .  

http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html

skip to 13:10

So if you state something completely false as a "rule", it makes it unquestionably correct?

your "rule1" is so obviously wrong its not even worth making an arguement against. as for the rest: dayz not only forced pvp but also full loot and was pretty sucessful. what about ps2, you don't play that because its forced pvp right? actually wait ps2 doesn't exist right?

not sure why im responding to such a stupid flamebait thread anyway.

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by mehoron

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

---

Originally posted by Azoth
So UO was not a success ?

---

It did better after the PvE rule set was implemented. They reached their peak of 250,000 people during that time. I thought it was 278,000, but Wikipedia never lies.

Eve seems pretty successful. It took a lot of time, but nobody considers Eve a failure. I don't know that I'd call Darkfall a failure either, since they made enough money to write another game, even if it uses a lot of assets from an existing game.

I don't think the OP's premise is valid.

 

I don't think it's invalid, but it doesn't hit on any issues. It's more a history lesson, then saying "It will fail cause I think the others have failed"

I don't believe that people should stop making FFA games cause of history, since as it's been indicated FFA games are alive and well. But the OP never goes into detail about why they feel it's a failure.

(S)he didn't have to go into detail as the OP spelled it out plain as day in there post. PvP focused games don't succeed because they are PvP focused. Which is entirely untrue and not the reason games like MO and Darkfall didn't do as well as they should have. 

It was poor planning, poor development, bad coding, and mainly a lack of funding and talent. 

Henrick is why Mortal failed, the guy has no clue how to run a development team or how to find true talent to bring ideas to life. Mortal failed as soon as they released the dogs to the CBTs and everyone realized it was a broken monstrocity. It had nothing to do with the PVP or its focus on PVP, but everything to do with bugs and broken mechanics/false promises. 

 

Well people play MMORPGs to play a role either in a bigger battle or in PVP, neither DF or MO really fulfill that, bugs aside. There is no driving force behind any of it.

Honestly you can say "go make a character, now go fight people in different arenas with different amounts of players" and you pretty much have the gameplay content in both the games without the grind. Infact that model would probably be more popular.

In both games the world means pretty much nothing. There is no starve on resources, there is no REAL PVP economy or market. It's very shallow. No one is running around DF as a merchant with a pack camel that needs protection. There are just the same people using the same weapon and spells fighting over a city that doesn't really matter. 

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Originally posted by Siveria

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Planetside 2 is an MMORPG.

I somehow doubt Planetside 2 is PVE :P

In other words, the OP has no real idea what he's going on about :)

Planetside 2 also sucks balls. And it is hardly a mmorpg, its missing most of the things that make an mmo"RPG" a mmorpg, like content, storyline, stuff to do, itemization.

So you can't have a role playing game without items?

You can't have an RPG without a set storyline?

 

and whether or not Planetside 2 performs the sexual act you mention or not, it really has no affect on the success of a FFA PVP game, nor Darkfall UW in any way.

 

In other words, I seriously hope you are joking because I hate to think you actually believe in such reasoning.

I bet you think CoD and Battlefield are mmorpgs also, right? lol

Will Darkfall: The Second Attempt die because of FFA PvP? Most likely not.

Will it remain a niche game with a tiny playerbase ridiculed by most of the gaming world just as its predecessor and challenged twin Mortal Online were and are? Oh, yeah.

Also, EvE is sullied every time some random Darkfall supporter tries to use it as a reason Darkfall can be just as successful. It's blasphemous to even mention the two games in the same breath.

EvE is successful because even a staunch PvE only player can play EvE enjoyably. EvE has FFA PvP, but EvE supports ALL types of gameplay and all types of gamers.

Darkfall and its dropped-on-the-head-at-birth twin Mortal Online focus on supporting the ganker over all else. The fact Darkfall at least has a few credible programmers is the only reason it sits higher than MO.

Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Originally posted by Siveria

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Planetside 2 is an MMORPG.

I somehow doubt Planetside 2 is PVE :P

In other words, the OP has no real idea what he's going on about :)

Planetside 2 also sucks balls. And it is hardly a mmorpg, its missing most of the things that make an mmo"RPG" a mmorpg, like content, storyline, stuff to do, itemization.

So you can't have a role playing game without items?

You can't have an RPG without a set storyline?

 

and whether or not Planetside 2 performs the sexual act you mention or not, it really has no affect on the success of a FFA PVP game, nor Darkfall UW in any way.

 

In other words, I seriously hope you are joking because I hate to think you actually believe in such reasoning.

I bet you think CoD and Battlefield are mmorpgs also, right? lol

Will Darkfall: The Second Attempt die because of FFA PvP? Most likely not.

Will it remain a niche game with a tiny playerbase ridiculed by most of the gaming world just as its predecessor and challenged twin Mortal Online were and are? Oh, yeah.

Also, EvE is sullied every time some random Darkfall supporter tries to use it as a reason Darkfall can be just as successful. It's blasphemous to even mention the two games in the same breath.

EvE is successful because even a staunch PvE only player can play EvE enjoyably. EvE has FFA PvP, but EvE supports ALL types of gameplay and all types of gamers.

Darkfall and its dropped-on-the-head-at-birth twin Mortal Online focus on supporting the ganker over all else. The fact Darkfall at least has a few credible programmers is the only reason it sits higher than MO.

As far as I know, CoD and Battlefield have many matches instead of one world to fight in.

I think the OP needs to define "fail".

The only time a game "fails" is if it earns less than is needed to repay it's loans and keep the servers running (and the dev team stil get paid monthly)..

Not having 1M or 500K players is not "failing".

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Originally posted by Siveria

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Planetside 2 is an MMORPG.

I somehow doubt Planetside 2 is PVE :P

In other words, the OP has no real idea what he's going on about :)

Planetside 2 also sucks balls. And it is hardly a mmorpg, its missing most of the things that make an mmo"RPG" a mmorpg, like content, storyline, stuff to do, itemization.

So you can't have a role playing game without items?

You can't have an RPG without a set storyline?

 

and whether or not Planetside 2 performs the sexual act you mention or not, it really has no affect on the success of a FFA PVP game, nor Darkfall UW in any way.

 

In other words, I seriously hope you are joking because I hate to think you actually believe in such reasoning.

I bet you think CoD and Battlefield are mmorpgs also, right? lol

Will Darkfall: The Second Attempt die because of FFA PvP? Most likely not.

Will it remain a niche game with a tiny playerbase ridiculed by most of the gaming world just as its predecessor and challenged twin Mortal Online were and are? Oh, yeah.

Also, EvE is sullied every time some random Darkfall supporter tries to use it as a reason Darkfall can be just as successful. It's blasphemous to even mention the two games in the same breath.

EvE is successful because even a staunch PvE only player can play EvE enjoyably. EvE has FFA PvP, but EvE supports ALL types of gameplay and all types of gamers.

Darkfall and its dropped-on-the-head-at-birth twin Mortal Online focus on supporting the ganker over all else. The fact Darkfall at least has a few credible programmers is the only reason it sits higher than MO.

As far as I know, CoD and Battlefield have many matches instead of one world to fight in.

Okay, then I will at least give you that credit.

Originally posted by Siveria

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by Siveria

So in case your wondering why I say Darkfall: uw will be dead after 3 months, its because of the rules below and the fact that its been proven that in todays mmo market ffa full loot pvp games just do not survive anymore sadly, Now you might argue about Eve Online, but that game was near death till Plex came out and people could play for free on someone else's dollar.

Read the general mmorpg rules below. Especally number 3, because this is where games like mortal online and darkfall failed. Also before you say I dislike pvp, i don't, I don't mind if its forced, what I do dislike is the full loot aspect of it, well that and the fact max lv chars can pick on lowbie/newbies and get away with it.. usually, there are sometimes other players who will take time out of their day to protect said lowbies. Take the full loot away from darkfall UW and i'd defentally play. Don't mind so much about picking on lowbies, its not something I do and i feel people that do that are cowards who can't handle a real/even fight.

Here are the rules below, and for the most part they are true. Number 3 is one of the major reasons why games like MO, DF etc fail. That and what I mentioned earlier.

Rule#1 - MMORPGs are PVE games with PVP elements, not the other way around.
Rule#2 - Any MMO that forces PVP fails.
Rule#3 - Enticing PVEers to PVP is different than forcing them to. NO scenario/idea that forces it has succeeded.
Rule#4 - The same as Rule#3 can be applied to RP - you cannot force it.
Rule#5 - Before you get lippy, remember Rule#1.

You really have no idea what your talking about. EVE wasn't almost dead before PLEX came out... that is just ignorance right there. 

First off YOUR rules aren't remotely close to how MMO's should be designed as it alienates one group or the other. You need to look at Bartle and some of his work. He had it right on how MMO's should be developed and how games in general should strive to accomadate each type of gamers playstyle. 

If you develop soley with PVE in mind you get games like SWTOR. If you develop with PVP soley in mind you end up with games like Mortal (lack of funding). You have to mix the two in order to be successful. WoW wouldn't be where it is today if it didn't have PvP as a main focus of game. EVE wouldn't be where it is today if PVP wasn't the main focus of the game. 

No you need to design with both play styles in mind and mix the two naturally together, something akin to what Lineage 2 did. 

If you alienate one style you won't be successful because your purposely alienating 50% of your obtainable playerbase. Yes  PVPers and PVEers are close to an even split. Mainly because most PVPers enjoy PVE as well and most PVEers enjoy PVP as well. 

While RP can be put on the backburner for development as they are no where close to being a majority, there really is no reason to not accomadate them. All they usually want is decent animations on emotes, sitable chairs, Naming Policy with an easy way to report offensive names, and chat bubbles. Nothing major when you consider what PVEers and PVPers both demand. 

 

TL;DR 

 

Your rules are a result of ignorance. 

Hate to tell you but the mmo market is mostly pve'ers and alot less of a pvper population. Look at Aion, Decent amount of players but maybe 10% of them on each faction ever shows up for the pvp events in the abyss, while the rest who are high enough in level/skill just stick to pve. Its liek this in almost all mmo's that have both game modes, onyl exception might be dark age of camelot, that games pvp setup was just godlike, why the hell no dev tries to copy it is beyond me. It was perfect you had your pve world, then you had your open faction vs faction 3 way pvp zone with stuff to do like take keeps and such, and the most important part which most games with pvp forget to add, is a reason to pvp, daoc's pvp unlocked a ton of new abilities and such for your characters, that you could not get any other way, its much better than handing pvp'ers items IMO.

Also the rules are something I found on another forum, and they have been proven true more than once. IMO the pve/pvp split is prob 80-90% of mmo'ers are pve and 10-20% are the pvp people.  A hardcore pvp game caters to a very VERY small niche market that as most games like MO etc show, just do not work. MO did have crap for a budget though. These types of games have a low budget because there is such a small playerbase that investors don't wanna bother risking it on them since other than games like UO and Eve most games of that type don't make it.

This arguement is so stupid. Its like saying all PVE games will fail because FFXIV was a strictly PVE focused game and it is considered the biggest MMO failure to date. Yet I bet you will argue it was other things that caused that game to fail and not it being focused on PVE. 

You know the difference between me and you is; I acknowledge it had other flaws and probably could have been a decent game had it of worked those flaws out before release. The same can be said about Mortal and Darkfall. 

As for the PVP and PVE split. Lets take a look at a very popular game WOW:

116 PVP servers

117 PVE servers

Seems pretty even to me. Yes thats US servers couldn't be assed looking up EU and China. 

If you are the "lootee" you're probably not much of a fan of FFA PVP with full looting, however, if you are the "looter", probably makes you more of a fan.

As I'm normally the lootee I generally eschew full loot games unless there are reasonable ways to control my level of risk.  (Hence why I enjoy playing EVE despite my carebear nature)

I'll be stepping way out of my comfort zone by trying DF:UW this time around (I missed the first one) but I do so knowing full well what the design model is and won't have any cause to really complain if I find myself largely flat on my back and naked.

Originally posted by Kyleran

If you are the "lootee" you're probably not much of a fan of FFA PVP with full looting, however, if you are the "looter", probably makes you more of a fan.

As I'm normally the lootee I generally eschew full loot games unless there are reasonable ways to control my level of risk.  (Hence why I enjoy playing EVE despite my carebear nature)

I'll be stepping way out of my comfort zone by trying DF:UW this time around (I missed the first one) but I do so knowing full well what the design model is and won't have any cause to really complain if I find myself largely flat on my back and naked.

At least your willing to give the game a shot and not shoot it down because it doesn't appeal to exactly what you enjoy or want. 

Rules are usually made up with a consensus or by someone able to enforce them.  UO is still going, and it is pretty much seems to go agains your rules.  DF UW is an extension of DF, and has been out for a couple of years yet.  I'd be curious to know how long an MMO has to be out before the 'fail' happens.  Some games just become OBE (overcome by events), and pass to the netherworld.  CoH, and SWG come to mind.  Are those 'fail' games because they went under.  I'm inclined to say no.  They had their time, and faded into memory.

I'm not saying DF UW will be one of those, but your rules aren't going to be the reason.  Your rule number one is the worst one.  While PvE is the greater part of most MMOs, it's the human interaction that has people playing it.  PvP doesn't just mean combat, although that's what it has morphed into.  It means competing in a variety of ways to be the best.  The best archer, the best cook, the most titles, etc, etc, etc.  If people truly wanted mostly PvE, they would play COOP games.

Darkfall would've died in under a year if it was released in the state it was in 2009, as a PvE title. The FFA PvP is the only thing that's kept it alive for 3,5 years.

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by Siveria

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by Siveria

So in case your wondering why I say Darkfall: uw will be dead after 3 months, its because of the rules below and the fact that its been proven that in todays mmo market ffa full loot pvp games just do not survive anymore sadly, Now you might argue about Eve Online, but that game was near death till Plex came out and people could play for free on someone else's dollar.

Read the general mmorpg rules below. Especally number 3, because this is where games like mortal online and darkfall failed. Also before you say I dislike pvp, i don't, I don't mind if its forced, what I do dislike is the full loot aspect of it, well that and the fact max lv chars can pick on lowbie/newbies and get away with it.. usually, there are sometimes other players who will take time out of their day to protect said lowbies. Take the full loot away from darkfall UW and i'd defentally play. Don't mind so much about picking on lowbies, its not something I do and i feel people that do that are cowards who can't handle a real/even fight.

Here are the rules below, and for the most part they are true. Number 3 is one of the major reasons why games like MO, DF etc fail. That and what I mentioned earlier.

Rule#1 - MMORPGs are PVE games with PVP elements, not the other way around.
Rule#2 - Any MMO that forces PVP fails.
Rule#3 - Enticing PVEers to PVP is different than forcing them to. NO scenario/idea that forces it has succeeded.
Rule#4 - The same as Rule#3 can be applied to RP - you cannot force it.
Rule#5 - Before you get lippy, remember Rule#1.

You really have no idea what your talking about. EVE wasn't almost dead before PLEX came out... that is just ignorance right there. 

First off YOUR rules aren't remotely close to how MMO's should be designed as it alienates one group or the other. You need to look at Bartle and some of his work. He had it right on how MMO's should be developed and how games in general should strive to accomadate each type of gamers playstyle. 

If you develop soley with PVE in mind you get games like SWTOR. If you develop with PVP soley in mind you end up with games like Mortal (lack of funding). You have to mix the two in order to be successful. WoW wouldn't be where it is today if it didn't have PvP as a main focus of game. EVE wouldn't be where it is today if PVP wasn't the main focus of the game. 

No you need to design with both play styles in mind and mix the two naturally together, something akin to what Lineage 2 did. 

If you alienate one style you won't be successful because your purposely alienating 50% of your obtainable playerbase. Yes  PVPers and PVEers are close to an even split. Mainly because most PVPers enjoy PVE as well and most PVEers enjoy PVP as well. 

While RP can be put on the backburner for development as they are no where close to being a majority, there really is no reason to not accomadate them. All they usually want is decent animations on emotes, sitable chairs, Naming Policy with an easy way to report offensive names, and chat bubbles. Nothing major when you consider what PVEers and PVPers both demand. 

 

TL;DR 

 

Your rules are a result of ignorance. 

Hate to tell you but the mmo market is mostly pve'ers and alot less of a pvper population. Look at Aion, Decent amount of players but maybe 10% of them on each faction ever shows up for the pvp events in the abyss, while the rest who are high enough in level/skill just stick to pve. Its liek this in almost all mmo's that have both game modes, onyl exception might be dark age of camelot, that games pvp setup was just godlike, why the hell no dev tries to copy it is beyond me. It was perfect you had your pve world, then you had your open faction vs faction 3 way pvp zone with stuff to do like take keeps and such, and the most important part which most games with pvp forget to add, is a reason to pvp, daoc's pvp unlocked a ton of new abilities and such for your characters, that you could not get any other way, its much better than handing pvp'ers items IMO.

Also the rules are something I found on another forum, and they have been proven true more than once. IMO the pve/pvp split is prob 80-90% of mmo'ers are pve and 10-20% are the pvp people.  A hardcore pvp game caters to a very VERY small niche market that as most games like MO etc show, just do not work. MO did have crap for a budget though. These types of games have a low budget because there is such a small playerbase that investors don't wanna bother risking it on them since other than games like UO and Eve most games of that type don't make it.

This arguement is so stupid. Its like saying all PVE games will fail because FFXIV was a strictly PVE focused game and it is considered the biggest MMO failure to date. Yet I bet you will argue it was other things that caused that game to fail and not it being focused on PVE. 

You know the difference between me and you is; I acknowledge it had other flaws and probably could have been a decent game had it of worked those flaws out before release. The same can be said about Mortal and Darkfall. 

As for the PVP and PVE split. Lets take a look at a very popular game WOW:

116 PVP servers

117 PVE servers

Seems pretty even to me. Yes thats US servers couldn't be assed looking up EU and China. 

As usual however, WoW is the anaomoly, not the standard. Look at any other major mmo out there and you'll see PvP servers outnumbered greatly by the PvE servers.

PvP has been the minority in normal mmos since Trammel hit UO.

Now, does this mean there is not a large group of PvP'ers out there that could make a PvP mmo just as successful as the major PvE mmos? If course not.

EvE is a good start, but not quite there ( one big problem with EvE is many people feel disassociated from the game due to spaceships vs. humanoid avatars ).

Even the ubiquitous UO survived until now solely because they took the focus off FFA PvP and opened the game to more than one style of play.

I would guarantee you if you took the focus off of supporting the ganker playstyle in Darkfall and opened it up to ALL playstyles ( the explorer, the PvE'er, the commodities/market player, etc., etc.), Darkfall in my opinion would be a smash success and would at the very least be on par with EvE, if not surpassing ( again, the whole spaceship vs. avatar thing ) it completely.

Everyone and their mother has tried copying WoW and failed. Only one has tried copying EvE ( Perpetuum Online ), and they copied it so blatantly ( everything right down to the menus, only replacing spaceships with robots ) as well as so crudely ( seriously, their coders suck almost as badly as Henrik's little team of idiots )  they failed.

If you built a game with Darkfall's atmosphere and world with EvE's multi-playstyle gameplay  ( make your own damn UI and menus, etc. ), you'd have a hit. I'd play that shit in a second.