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General Discussion  » How the Developers are out of touch.....

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124 posts found
  ZigZags

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/10
Posts: 335

 
OP  12/03/12 1:43:24 PM#1

My biggest concern about an IP that I grew up with and love is that the developers are so out of touch with reality that they are heading down a path similar to what BioWare did with SWTOR. Based on what we know today, I believe TESO will havea  fate similar to SWTOR. Huge budget, exciting for the first 30-90 days, then drop off and fail status shortly after. Here's why.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_Fr6VF_1LA at 0:27 Matt Firor thinks they are bringing two different types of players together into one game. As a result they are mixing TES features with "popular" MMO features that two different players will be familiar with and like. This is so not true at all. Of the 27 friends on my Steam list that play TES series, all of them play MMO games as well. These are the same player base. Not two different. By adding features like, instances, short term instanced battlegrounds, factions, zone locks etc. they think they will combine the two player bases together. They don't understand that the two are one and the same and are sick and tired of instanced zones, short term battlegrounds, zone locks and lack of freedom.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_Fr6VF_1LA at 3:11 Matt Firor thinks that the worst experience in an MMO at the early stages is not being able to find your friends. So their solution is "Mega Server" where the computer decides which server/instance to put you in. This could not be further from the truth. I have played MMOs for 17 years and never once did I have problems finding my friends because we all knew before hand where we were going to play. How? Because we are friends duh, we communicate via chat, phone, text and we all know where we are going. Having a "smart computer" tell you where you are going means 2 bad things: 1) How does it know who your friends are and where it will put you? It doesn't and at first, it wont. 2) This means the game is going to be HEAVILY instanced. This is bad because maybe you want to stalk an opponent who's been killing you and since you're not friends, maybe you wont be on the same server today...I see this is TESO dev team jumping on to some new server technology (that SWTOR used) because it sounds good, but as we have already seen. It wont be.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_Fr6VF_1LA at 8:04 This is what GW2 did and is totally stupid and is what happens when you force and funnel people to a PVP area. Rather than giving us an open world we can PVP in at any level which is what we haven't seen in a while and is something I think most of s hunger for. Zenimax is failing hard here.

 

These are just a few examples of how I believe the Developers are out of touch with what the MMO/TES fans and players are thirsting for in this title. As in all previous TES, we want a non linear OPEN WORLD where we can do what we want when we want. Factions are OK if you allow cross factions to explore the opposing faction's areas. By zone locking us out and funneling us into Cyrodil you are no different than what SWTOR tried to do, what GW2 is doing and failing at and what DAOC did but was never as big as it wanted to be. Zenimax should take lessons from the failures of the past and not make the same mistakes. Take EQ as an example. As a Halfing I could venture to Dark Elf territory and sweat bullets that I wouldn't be detected and KOS. THAT's the kind of feel we want. Not some carebear safety zones with a race to 50 so we can pvp in Cyrodil and definitely not the computer auto scaling my level and gear so I can fight in Cyrodil at lvl 10. That is so carebear and NOT what TES fans are going to pay for long term.

Now: Skyrim
Later: ?
Played: M59, UO, EQ, Runescape, DAOC, SB, EQ2, WoW, EVE, Darkfall, AoC, FFXI, FFXIV, WAR, SWTOR
BOYCOTTING: EA/BioWare/Origin/SOE

  tawess

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/05
Posts: 1863

WoWWARCoh/vSWGEveProject entropia

12/03/12 1:47:27 PM#2
So i guess you will not be playing it. Stuff like that happens.

This have been a good conversation

  ZigZags

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/10
Posts: 335

 
OP  12/03/12 1:49:29 PM#3

It depends. When more information is out I will make the decision then. But as of today based on what I know, it doesn't look good and I don't want to support the business model of: "Lets make a mediocre game, hype it up and make our profit in the first 3 months so who cares about the quality long term." But I do realize most in the MMO community will continue to support this business model.

Now: Skyrim
Later: ?
Played: M59, UO, EQ, Runescape, DAOC, SB, EQ2, WoW, EVE, Darkfall, AoC, FFXI, FFXIV, WAR, SWTOR
BOYCOTTING: EA/BioWare/Origin/SOE

  Landon68

Novice Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 6

12/03/12 1:50:12 PM#4

You are arguing out of an PVP point of view, and probaly you are right in this regard.

 

I'm not so sure if this is also true for ppl who can't care for PVP.

 

Additional if the server transfers would be free of charge, or a service which is covered with the subscription fee you could w/o problem move the server to your friends.

I think similry like you, small servers where you know most of the ppl and where your reputation is based on other ppl is a good thing. thats why so many assholes are around when you have cross servers. In the beginning of wow you couldn't move away and no x-server was available, so ppl who acted like assholes branded them selves. I think that was a good feature what is missing now.

  tawess

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/05
Posts: 1863

WoWWARCoh/vSWGEveProject entropia

12/03/12 1:54:23 PM#5
if they are smart they release it as a B2P and then just crap out a expansio ro two each year

This have been a good conversation

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10376

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

12/03/12 1:55:54 PM#6

To be fair, any individual on these forums is at least as clueless about the player base as any game developer. Game developers at least have access to some metrics related to games and game play. Unless they don't bother buying them from the companies that collect them. In which case, they are about as clueless as the people on these forums.

The server technology they're using won't be whatever Bioware used. Bioware's system operates nearly the same as how WoW's system operates. Players on specific servers. He does have a point though. When a game initially launches, getting everyone onto the same server requires that everyone start playing the game at the same time. If players start playing a game at different times, it can be impossible to play together on the same server. The issue isn't players being competent in finding each other, the issue is limitations with the standard server system. A mega server addresses that issue.

Concerning OWPvP...I'm going to go with the game developer having a better idea of what more people want than one random person on a forum. In general, more MMORPG players prefer PvE content with optional PvP as opposed to open world PvP or free for all PvP. I think there's room for more than one server type, but if the choice is one or the other, then the PvE server type wins. GW2 has shown that this can work just fine.

The problem here is you see things from your perspective and the developer is looking at things from the perspective of a million or more people. The million or more people heavily outweighs any individual or group.

That doesn't mean that they're going to make a great game or even that they made the right decisions. Their decisions make sense for what their goals are.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16939

12/03/12 1:59:51 PM#7
Originally posted by ZigZags

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_Fr6VF_1LA at 0:27 Matt Firor thinks they are bringing two different types of players together into one game. As a result they are mixing TES features with "popular" MMO features that two different players will be familiar with and like. This is so not true at all. Of the 27 friends on my Steam list that play TES series, all of them play MMO games as well.

some of your post I agree with (mega server part) some I disagree with (pvp part, that's personal preference).

the above isn't necessarily so.

Your friends?

How about the people who aren't your friends who don't share the same interests?

Of the people I know who aren't friends, who played skyrim, half of them don't play mmo's.

The other half don't play mmo's "often" and for the most part only play WoW. one played Lotro. However she never finished Skyrim, a bit too open for her.

 

 

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5507

12/03/12 2:07:12 PM#8
Originally posted by tawess
if they are smart they release it as a B2P and then just crap out a expansio ro two each year

I agree.  B2P would definitely be a plus for me.  I'm not sure how popular that would be with the subscription crowd though.

The mega-server is something I really like.  I like it in STO and would like to see that approach used more often.

I'm not interested in open world ffa pvp so that would be a deal breaker for me.

To each their own I guess.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  MyTabbycat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 300

12/03/12 2:11:41 PM#9

I agree with you on wanting to explore the entire world and not being locked out of zones.

I agree that we shouldn't have a lot of loading screens. However, even Skyrim has some loading screens. If they are brief and are only for going into certain areas like dungeons, I'm OK with it. I'd rather have the WoW fly across the entire continent kind of thing than GW2's find the portal so you can get to the next zone.

I HATE PvP with a passion. I do NOT want open world PvP. If you simply must have it, then I want the following:

1. Give me the option to turn PvP OFF

2. Make it so that only if I venture into an enemy city I get flagged PvP. If I'm just wondering around exploring a zone, I don't want to get ganked by some other player.

 

Maybe this is where the megaserver will actually come in handy. You can have your open world pvp gankfest and I can have my nice RP/PvE explore the world enjoyment.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10376

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

12/03/12 2:13:36 PM#10


Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by tawess if they are smart they release it as a B2P and then just crap out a expansio ro two each year
I agree.  B2P would definitely be a plus for me.  I'm not sure how popular that would be with the subscription crowd though.

The mega-server is something I really like.  I like it in STO and would like to see that approach used more often.

I'm not interested in open world ffa pvp so that would be a deal breaker for me.

To each their own I guess.




Can't really speak for anyone else, or the game itself, but I would be far more inclined to buy a B2P game than a Sub game. I think the mega server thing is a fine solution. We're never going to get back to servers where everyone knows each other, so we may as well be on servers that get us near the people we know.

As far as PvP, if it's just OWPvP added to the game, same as say, Rift, then it'll be a waste of effort on everyone's part. If it has some purpose, and some incentive to occur in large groups, then it'll be worth the effort. Otherwise, they should just stick PvE with flags.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5507

12/03/12 2:24:48 PM#11
Originally posted by lizardbones

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by tawess if they are smart they release it as a B2P and then just crap out a expansio ro two each year
I agree.  B2P would definitely be a plus for me.  I'm not sure how popular that would be with the subscription crowd though.

 

The mega-server is something I really like.  I like it in STO and would like to see that approach used more often.

I'm not interested in open world ffa pvp so that would be a deal breaker for me.

To each their own I guess.



Can't really speak for anyone else, or the game itself, but I would be far more inclined to buy a B2P game than a Sub game. I think the mega server thing is a fine solution. We're never going to get back to servers where everyone knows each other, so we may as well be on servers that get us near the people we know.

As far as PvP, if it's just OWPvP added to the game, same as say, Rift, then it'll be a waste of effort on everyone's part. If it has some purpose, and some incentive to occur in large groups, then it'll be worth the effort. Otherwise, they should just stick PvE with flags.

 

I agree with your B2P summary.  That's just me though.  I would think it a popular option, but I'm out of touch with the mmo demographic.

I also agree with your server assessment.  I love how the server community existed in Lineage but that doesn't seem like it can be replicated unless the game is super niche.  I like how the servers in STO feel very busy.  One of my gripes with GW2 is that my cousin is on another server and they haven't implemented open world guesting yet.  I'm not sure why people don't like the idea of a single server.

Even with mega-servers they could have a ffa pvp ruleset server and a pve/flagged system.  I do like it when pvp is more than just PK, but I would like it to be optional (that's just me).

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  LizardEgypt

Novice Member

Joined: 2/25/09
Posts: 359

Hmm ?

12/03/12 2:26:05 PM#12
It's meta-developing. It's looking too much at what's trending and not enough about your team's strengths and drive to make a good game. Everyone's doing it because marketing and finance is what runs your development studio.

Currently playing - FF14ARR
Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.

  Shadanwolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1865

12/04/12 3:43:07 PM#13

OP...today I don't share your concern.I have not played an ES game.....but I have played many mmog's and know DAOC VERY WELL..So far from all I've heard , I'm encouraged.Matt F is being true to the ES lore...yet making an mmog.

Given my deep disappointment with GW2 WvW( 24/7 zerg where you try to score points ....sigh ) ESO  is my only hope.

  ZigZags

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/10
Posts: 335

 
OP  12/04/12 8:24:07 PM#14
Originally posted by Landon68

 

Additional if the server transfers would be free of charge, or a service which is covered with the subscription fee you could w/o problem move the server to your friends.

I think similry like you, small servers where you know most of the ppl and where your reputation is based on other ppl is a good thing. thats why so many assholes are around when you have cross servers. In the beginning of wow you couldn't move away and no x-server was available, so ppl who acted like assholes branded them selves. I think that was a good feature what is missing now.

Exactly what I was thinking. Have the infrastructure and options for a server transfer in place to execute within 30 days of release would solve the problem of not being able to play with your friends.

 

However I think the biggest problem for people not being able to play with their friends is the fact that there are factions that cant communicate with eachother, visit eachother's lands, or group up. 

 

I used to play on Race War PVP server, Tallon Zek on EQ. it was 4 teams of 3 races, but you could still communicate and visit/invade eachother's territories if you wanted to. It was fun.

Now: Skyrim
Later: ?
Played: M59, UO, EQ, Runescape, DAOC, SB, EQ2, WoW, EVE, Darkfall, AoC, FFXI, FFXIV, WAR, SWTOR
BOYCOTTING: EA/BioWare/Origin/SOE

  ZigZags

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/10
Posts: 335

 
OP  12/04/12 8:31:26 PM#15
Originally posted by Shadanwolf

OP...today I don't share your concern.I have not played an ES game.....but I have played many mmog's and know DAOC VERY WELL..So far from all I've heard , I'm encouraged.Matt F is being true to the ES lore...yet making an mmog.

Given my deep disappointment with GW2 WvW( 24/7 zerg where you try to score points ....sigh ) ESO  is my only hope.

ESO's pvp sounds so damn similar to GW2 and that's what is turning me off. A Huge PVP zerg land where everyone scales in level and gear regardless of their actual game progression. I smell fail all over. I would prefer public pvp dungeons, ala Darkness Falls in DAOC and frontiers. But really I would prefer Public everything like EQ1 had and have specific objectives in Cyrodil that would drive much of the PVP there naturally. I hate being forced and funneled where to go and what to do in an MMO, especially an Elder Scrolls one.

 

Now: Skyrim
Later: ?
Played: M59, UO, EQ, Runescape, DAOC, SB, EQ2, WoW, EVE, Darkfall, AoC, FFXI, FFXIV, WAR, SWTOR
BOYCOTTING: EA/BioWare/Origin/SOE

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5507

12/04/12 11:04:50 PM#16
Originally posted by ZigZags
Originally posted by Shadanwolf

OP...today I don't share your concern.I have not played an ES game.....but I have played many mmog's and know DAOC VERY WELL..So far from all I've heard , I'm encouraged.Matt F is being true to the ES lore...yet making an mmog.

Given my deep disappointment with GW2 WvW( 24/7 zerg where you try to score points ....sigh ) ESO  is my only hope.

ESO's pvp sounds so damn similar to GW2 and that's what is turning me off. A Huge PVP zerg land where everyone scales in level and gear regardless of their actual game progression. I smell fail all over. I would prefer public pvp dungeons, ala Darkness Falls in DAOC and frontiers. But really I would prefer Public everything like EQ1 had and have specific objectives in Cyrodil that would drive much of the PVP there naturally. I hate being forced and funneled where to go and what to do in an MMO, especially an Elder Scrolls one.

All large scale pvp is pretty much a zerg fest.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  MyTabbycat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 300

12/05/12 3:43:25 AM#17
There are also supposed to be smaller scale objectives besides just the giant zerg raid on the Capital. For example, you'd have objectives to take over resources in order to starve out the enemy. Probably objectives to take out key NPC's on the other side as well, in a more stealthy manner. From what the devs were saying, they wanted there to be a variety of PvP things to do in Cyrodiil... aside from just the big zerg battles.
  muffins89

Novice Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 1253

12/05/12 3:50:03 AM#18
Originally posted by ZigZags
Originally posted by Shadanwolf

OP...today I don't share your concern.I have not played an ES game.....but I have played many mmog's and know DAOC VERY WELL..So far from all I've heard , I'm encouraged.Matt F is being true to the ES lore...yet making an mmog.

Given my deep disappointment with GW2 WvW( 24/7 zerg where you try to score points ....sigh ) ESO  is my only hope.

ESO's pvp sounds so damn similar to GW2 and that's what is turning me off. A Huge PVP zerg land where everyone scales in level and gear regardless of their actual game progression. I smell fail all over. I would prefer public pvp dungeons, ala Darkness Falls in DAOC and frontiers. But really I would prefer Public everything like EQ1 had and have specific objectives in Cyrodil that would drive much of the PVP there naturally. I hate being forced and funneled where to go and what to do in an MMO, especially an Elder Scrolls one.

 

cyrodill is bigger than oblivion.  it also has public dungeons and quests.  it's basically a huge owpvp zone.  it's not really all that similar to gw2.  other than it will also have 3 faction siege warfare.

I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16407

12/05/12 3:58:57 AM#19

I dont really think instances will be the biggest problem in ESO.

Firor did lose my interest when he said all MMO features were already invented and needed no additions. That is kinda like when the head of the Us patent office said everything was already invented and they might as well close down in the 1890s.

Thinking like that leads to old boring copying of old stuff. Sadly enough, most people here seems to think more or less the same, in threads about what MMO people should make if they have the money SWG2, UO2 and AC3 are the top choices forgetting that it was new thinking that made AC, SWG and UO good games from the start.

I assume ESO will be a mix between DaoC and Wow which might sound good to some of you but the same can be said of WAR.

There is still time to change this tough, I hope that the alpha and beta testing make Bethesda and Zenimax to change their mind and revamp the game before launch, after it is too late.

The Elder scrolls have been a good series since Daggerfall, if Firor want to make a new DaoC he should instead buy the license from EA, it should be peanut money. Messing up your popular IP isnt worth it.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16407

12/05/12 4:02:32 AM#20
Originally posted by muffins89

cyrodill is bigger than oblivion.  it also has public dungeons and quests.  it's basically a huge owpvp zone.  it's not really all that similar to gw2.  other than it will also have 3 faction siege warfare.

Still sounds pretty similar to GW2 to me, even if it have dungeons and is larger.

While GW2s borderlands doesnt have quests it do have events.

Then again, I think GW2s WvWvW is pretty fun so that part sounds fine with me, in fact this is the part of the game that sounds fun to me.

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